Frontier - please stop work on any new expansions and focus on your core gameplay.

[Kewpa Eurus]

I beg to differ, it is a very complex software application and since I'm in the industry I think I know what I'm talking about. Well, that's what they pay me for and since I'm not out of a job I guess I must be doing something correctly.



So, put your application in. If you have the experience and knowledge then get a job with FD and show them where you think they are going wrong. It really is quite simple. If you think that you can do better then stop talking about it and do it.

It's very easy to say "they ought to do this" or "They should listen to me and do that" or "If they don't do what I say then Elite will die and FD will go bust" but by doing so you are showing pretty much that you haven't clue what is going on.

Yet every time the "go work for FD" suggestion is raised you say "Straw man" or similar, back-pedalling like fury when your bluff is called.

(That's a generic "You" by the way not just you personally.)

Like I said I'm in the software development industry, being paid pretty good money for what I do, but I know that despite that I could not take a job with FD because that sort of development is way above my level and I'm not afraid to admit it.

Nevertheless, I still know what is involved in the development process of complicated applications and it makes my blood boil (metaphorically) when I hear idiotic statements the the title of this thread. Demonstrably.

So, you can say what you like about what they should or should not do and how following your advice will save the game but unless you are willing to put your money where your mouth is, you're talking out of your neck (with apologies to the late Sir Terry Pratchett).

Have a nice day.

You are missing the fact that we are talking about game design, not the technical part of it. We are talking about what makes a game fun, what do you do to keep it engaging to the audience, how will the content you implement change the game as a whole, is the content worth the players time, how sustainable is the content? We are not talking about coding. You don't need to be a coding genius to be able to think in this manner.

Is the technical aspect of it complicated? Sure. Is the game play itself complicated? No.

It's not about just me, it's about all the supporters this game is losing who were backing the game you are defending as "working"

You are right, it is easy to say they should do this and that. Why? Because is blatantly obvious that the road they have taken is not working. Nothing is ever easy, but I'd be damned if I ever broke my budget to unnecessarily over complicate a process for a sub-par product.

Being really good technically does not make you good at design as well. They are 2 seperate entities. I will give it to FD at being great technical developers that make single player games. As far as being great designers for a multi-player game, they are inexperienced and it shows. You don't need to be in the industry to see that.

Perhaps that's the problem. Perhaps the team is too technical and engineer like. Sure they can make a game function, but making a game fun is a different animal.

Again the whole "Put in an application" is a straw man and not really valid. It's like being hired to do a job and you don't meet minimal standards, then telling the client to hire themselves to do it. No, the client hired you to do the job that you are getting paid for. In this case I'm the client and will be glad to bring my business somewhere else if I feel the person I hired is not up to the task. The client has money to spend, if it's not on you it will be on someone else. Business 101.

 

[V'larr]

Kewpa, it is a complex game.
By the standards of all the other games available out in the world right now, Elite Dangerous is one of the most complex.

Plus, it's not complete yet. It's 2 years into a 10-year plan....

Expecting Elite to be everything imaginable as of right now is asking a bit much. Good things take time and refinement. And it's already excellent as-is.

 

[raymondo the great]

Ultimately what is the quickest way for Elite to fail?

Simple answer is to fail to deliver the promised Horizons content. Because that would crash all future sales.

Those supporting the OP are literally asking for those who bought Horizons to not get what they paid for, they are asking for the game to be killed off.

Why?

Well mostly that's pretty obvious... they want the game to fail. They pretend they don't with all their "we are just trying to make it better" comments, but in reality their proposals would literally kill the game, because it would completely destroy FDevs ability to keep making the game. So those things they claim they want would never get added anyway!

To summarise... those backing the OP are basically the usual bitters being bitter and pretending they aren't. Sad really.

 

[NeilF]

Ultimately what is the quickest way for Elite to fail?

Simple answer is to fail to deliver the promised Horizons content. Because that would crash all future sales.

Absolutely correct...

What's the second quickest way for Elite to fail? For word of mouth to time after time give voice to the fact the game is not moving forwards, with development time being allocated to questionably productive developments which rather than adding intelligent, deeper and more challenging mechanics, are instead producing overbloated low-brow outcomes. ie: The fact the go-ahead is being given to cheap RND-time-sponge mechanics in favour of truely more innovative and interesting alternatives is getting noticed.

It's entirely possible now that 2.2 and 2.3 will see little movement forwards in gameplay/depth, which then just leaves 2.4. This I suspect is being put aside for a marketing exercise to kick up sales read for 2.4/3.0, so will be something along the lines of Thargoid/Aliens/or atmospheric flight (eg: jovians) maybe... Either way, none of those seem to have much time left for actually moving the gameplay forwards in truth, and we'll be over two years after release by then too.

Maybe we need to pin our hope on 3.0 for finally starting to set the bar higher in what the game is aiming towards...?

 

[babelfisch]

Ultimately what is the quickest way for Elite to fail?

Simple answer is to fail to deliver the promised Horizons content. Because that would crash all future sales.

Those supporting the OP are literally asking for those who bought Horizons to not get what they paid for, they are asking for the game to be killed off.

Why?

Well mostly that's pretty obvious... they want the game to fail. They pretend they don't with all their "we are just trying to make it better" comments, but in reality their proposals would literally kill the game, because it would completely destroy FDevs ability to keep making the game. So those things they claim they want would never get added anyway!

To summarise... those backing the OP are basically the usual bitters being bitter and pretending they aren't. Sad really.

The first part is correct, the second part is wrong. People in this thread genuinely want the game to be better and success. However most of them have little to no idea how to do that, they just say 'make it better' instead of making real suggestions or taking limitations and the need for expansions into account.
FDEV puts a lot of effort in the game. They are improving the core experience all the time and they are adding new features. However all new headline features are missing a real connection or mechanics in order to be perfect.

Wings: Missing NPC wings and wing missions.

Powerplay: Great idea, very good implementation in the galaxy map and game world with spawning NPCs, modifiers etc. Poor, grindy and unimmersive gameplay, that's more like a board game glued on top instead of a connected, well implemented experience.

CQC: Good idea, fast, balanced combat. Gives the competitive crowd something to do. But not related to the game world at all (except a small rank icon in your HUD and some credits).

Horizons: Great technology, good game mechanics like Orbital flight, wave scanner. Poor POI system. (probably the best addition so far)

Engineers: Interesting characters, hand crafted bases, progress system, lots of new materials and ways to obtain them. Spinning wheel of fortune, too much RNG for the base modifications, no Engineer missions.

 

[Viking84]

Simple answer is to fail to deliver the promised Horizons content. Because that would crash all future sales.

Of course you are right The OP was a bit tongue in cheek, I know Frontier can't just suddenly stop producing new content that they have already committed themselves to make.

I wish they could though. I wish they would dedicate the whole of Season 3 to making the basic things we do intrinsically enjoyable tasks to perform. This would ensure that every new expansion that came after this would have a solid foundation of fun to rest on and has a good chance of being well received.

2.1 caused a bit of an uproar in the forums for one simple reason - it forced everyone to engage in all the basic mechanics, repeatedly, if they wanted any of the modifications. That highlighted how tedious a lot of these tasks actually are, and resulted in the announced simplification of the material gathering process so we are able to spend less time doing these things.

If the devs could get a game designer in that understands that complex and time consuming mechanics aren't necessarily deep or rewarding, then we might see some improvement. To give some examples:

Complex and deep #1:
Power management on your ship. You choose which modules shut down in which priority to be able to have more firepower than your power supply can nominally handle. You have to choose which modules are not needed in a fight, you have to choose which modules you are OK waiting for power up if you should have to run. The choice will affect how to approach a fight, and how you deal with looming defeat. Feeling confident? Disable the FSD drive, the extra 10 second wait for it to power up won't affect you.

Complex and deep #2:
Ship outfitting. You have a tonne of choices, and weighing up the pros and cons of each module is a complex task, that also directly affects how your ship performs. You can prioritise weight and range over power and integrity. You can prioritise outright speed in normal space, or you can prioritise pure firepower. All these choices lead to different approaches to the rest of the game play, and they matter.

Complex and shallow #1:
Mining. Many many many different rings located in many different places. Limpet controllers for prospecting and collecting, refineries to process the materials, and lots of different materials to be found. Unfortunately it is the exact same experience regardless of where you go, and if making money is your goal there is only one way to do it right. Find a pristine ring, fire a prospecting limpet at an asteroid, hope for one of the 3 P's. Mine until dry, rinse and repeat.

Complex and shallow #2:
Collecting materials for the engineers. You usually need 3 or 4 different types of materials and a commodity. It is a complex task trying to source all of these materials, you need to find out where they are and how to increase your chances of a drop (picking the right rock, the right asteroid, the right ship). Ultimately though, there is only one right way of doing this. There are no consequences to your choices other than wasting time. In other words, there is no depth.


In my opinion the only aspect of Elite that is truly fleshed out is ship outfitting and combat. Everything else feels like side activities that are tacked on in a bare minimum state to give us something to do other than combat. This was criticised at launch and during Beta, but we were told by the more hardcore of the fans to stop complaining as it is just the start, things will get improved. Well here we are, 18+ months in, and nothing much has changed. My goal with the OP was to highlight that I (and apparently many others) hope the basic mechanics will get a lot more love in the future updates Personally I believe this is the key to Elites survival once it gets some competition.

 

[LuciusEsox]

Dear 'FD',

Please ignore any and advice from self-declared development experts like the above and do whatever the heck you like. Since you're the developers, not us and despite what we may say we actually have no idea about the process as evinced by posts like these.

Many thanks.

Are you for real about this ??

Why does this and many of the other similar post make me think of "Sheep" and "The Emperors new cloths" I just come back to this game after quite a break only to find the same immersion killing fault is present, i.e. I can't raise my landing gear using either an axis or a button, I have to come out of the game to make this happen. What is the mentality that accepts this sort of cr+p service after several updates and not only accepts it but also validates it by saying anyone who moans is trying to break the game in the long run............

Please don't get me started on the gameplay

Total mind F

 

[babelfisch]

Are you for real about this ??

Why does this and many of the other similar post make me think of "Sheep" and "The Emperors new cloths" I just come back to this game after quite a break only to find the same immersion killing fault is present, i.e. I can't raise my landing gear using either an axis or a button, I have to come out of the game to make this happen. What is the mentality that accepts this sort of cr+p service after several updates and not only accepts it but also validates it by saying anyone who moans is trying to break the game in the long run............

Please don't get me started on the gameplay

Total mind F

So your biggest problem with ED is that you can't raise your landing gear by using an axis? And you seriously ask why some people think it's better if FDEV decides which priorities they have rather than some parts of the community?

 

[OMIKRONXI]

There are billions of stars out there, but FD failed completely in giving explorers some kind of motivation to explore them. And by that I don't mean grind a lot crap for engineerupdates! How about to land on a planet to get some soil samples to take them home for analysing? Or maybe to discover geographical characteristics like the highest mountain or the deepest crater - and name it by the commander who visited it first? For me, the road this game takes leads too much in direction of combat. And powergrinding - for even better combat. Boring!

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Are you for real about this ??

Why does this and many of the other similar post make me think of "Sheep" and "The Emperors new cloths" I just come back to this game after quite a break only to find the same immersion killing fault is present, i.e. I can't raise my landing gear using either an axis or a button, I have to come out of the game to make this happen. What is the mentality that accepts this sort of cr+p service after several updates and not only accepts it but also validates it by saying anyone who moans is trying to break the game in the long run............

Please don't get me started on the gameplay

Total mind F

What on earth are you talking about. How do you raise you landing gear by going out of the game?

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

Are you for real about this ??

Why does this and many of the other similar post make me think of "Sheep" and "The Emperors new cloths" I just come back to this game after quite a break only to find the same immersion killing fault is present, i.e. I can't raise my landing gear using either an axis or a button, I have to come out of the game to make this happen. What is the mentality that accepts this sort of cr+p service after several updates and not only accepts it but also validates it by saying anyone who moans is trying to break the game in the long run............

Please don't get me started on the gameplay

Total mind F

Come out of the game to raise your landing gear? This interests me. Please don't leave us hanging like this. I will lose sleep tonight and I have to work at 5am tomorrow morning.

I have many complaints about this game. There's a TON of counter intuitive design. This, however, has me stumped.

 

[babelfisch]

What on earth are you talking about. How do you raise you landing gear by going out of the game?

I think he wants to bind landing gear to an axis instead of a button (don't know if it works, never tried it) and uses a third party app to make it work. I am not sure though...

 

[DAOWAce]

+1 to OP.

TotalBiscuit said it well when he talked about Skyrim.

"It's an ocean with the depth of a paddling pool."

There's a massive world there.. but very little to actually do in it.

The mechanics that are there.. the gameplay that is there.. is very minimal with almost no substance at all. Most of it is actually extremely strict and 'gamey'; the antithesis of being a simulation.

I believe the only people enjoying E are the ones that want to live in a different world. The people not enjoying E.. are gamers, who want to play a fun game with swaths of content and actual ingame goals rather than personally created ones.

The fun in E stops after the first few days when you realize there's only a couple of activities to do; only with many different hats.


Sadly, money rules the world, and FD don't seem to have a lot of it. Adding content to the base game for free is a death sentence.. and so is charging people for it.

There's no way out anymore unless they get funding from some place. Planet Coaster will bring some.. but then what? E's business model was not well thought out, at all. Horizons failed and they were forced to change it. But doing something like changing it to a subscription game now will fail even more.

Our time is limited, their time is limited..

I honestly don't see what future Elite: Dangerous has. By the time they can even fix and vastly improve the game.. most people will have already left for something else.

 

[babelfisch]

+1 to OP.

TotalBiscuit said it well when he talked about Skyrim.



There's a massive world there.. but very little to actually do in it.

The mechanics that are there.. the gameplay that is there.. is very minimal with almost no substance at all. Most of it is actually extremely strict and 'gamey'; the antithesis of being a simulation.

I believe the only people enjoying E are the ones that want to live in a different world. The people not enjoying E.. are gamers, who want to play a fun game with swaths of content and actual ingame goals rather than personally created ones.

The fun in E stops after the first few days when you realize there's only a couple of activities to do; only with many different hats.


Sadly, money rules the world, and FD don't seem to have a lot of it. Adding content to the base game for free is a death sentence.. and so is charging people for it.

There's no way out anymore unless they get funding from some place. Planet Coaster will bring some.. but then what? E's business model was not well thought out, at all. Horizons failed and they were forced to change it. But doing something like changing it to a subscription game now will fail even more.

Our time is limited, their time is limited..

I honestly don't see what future Elite: Dangerous has. By the time they can even fix and vastly improve the game.. most people will have already left for something else.

Maybe you have one or two valid points, but sadly it just turned into another doom and gloom post. So you are leaving me no choice other than responding as the fanboy I am (I would love to be the critical voice sometimes, but all the negativity doesn't allow me for balancing reasons...).

First: You don't really know what a gamer is, and I doubt that a universal definition exists.
Second: They added lots of stuff to the base game - for free.
Third: After looking at their financial reports I can tell you that the company is doing just fine.

 

[LuciusEsox]

So your biggest problem with ED is that you can't raise your landing gear by using an axis? And you seriously ask why some people think it's better if FDEV decides which priorities they have rather than some parts of the community?

With respect, I am not even gonna answer that...

 

[Mengy]

I honestly don't see what future Elite: Dangerous has. By the time they can even fix and vastly improve the game.. most people will have already left for something else.

Eh, I think it’s a tad premature for sentiments like that. It’s not too late yet, Elite is still doing okay despite a lot of the playerbase being very upset right now. While I’m sure some people have left the game, others still buy paint jobs and bobbleheads. I’m sure Elite is just fine for now.

That said though, FDev are continuing to burn the love and good will gradually, and at some point they are going to have to earn it back or they will risk the game dying and fading away. That’s why many people feel that FDev needs to stop implementing new features and spend some time fixing up what they have right now, to earn that good will back before it is too late. No amount of new and shiny features will make up for the lack of core content, not in the long run.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

With respect, I am not even gonna answer that...

I think its the fact that nobody has any clue what you are actually talking about. Why do you need to leave the game to raise the landing gear?

 

[Ignition]

Kewpa, it is a complex game.
By the standards of all the other games available out in the world right now, Elite Dangerous is one of the most complex.

Plus, it's not complete yet. It's 2 years into a 10-year plan....

Expecting Elite to be everything imaginable as of right now is asking a bit much. Good things take time and refinement. And it's already excellent as-is.

Sorry but the GAMEPLAY is not complex at all, in fact is the most simplistic and arcade.

It takes time you're right but lets call things as they really are. One thing is the complexity of the software, another the gameplay.

The important thing is gameplay because is what makes fun the game, then becomes the rest CG, BGS, etc.

The game launched 18 months back and the gameplay is exactly the same.

 

[Ignition]

Second: They added lots of stuff to the base game - for free.
.

It wasn't free, you paid for it, people forget this very easily. Its not a free game, its a paid game in development.

 

[Colonel Kenney]

+1 to OP.

TotalBiscuit said it well when he talked about Skyrim.



There's a massive world there.. but very little to actually do in it.

The mechanics that are there.. the gameplay that is there.. is very minimal with almost no substance at all. Most of it is actually extremely strict and 'gamey'; the antithesis of being a simulation.

I believe the only people enjoying E are the ones that want to live in a different world. The people not enjoying E.. are gamers, who want to play a fun game with swaths of content and actual ingame goals rather than personally created ones.

The fun in E stops after the first few days when you realize there's only a couple of activities to do; only with many different hats.


Sadly, money rules the world, and FD don't seem to have a lot of it. Adding content to the base game for free is a death sentence.. and so is charging people for it.

There's no way out anymore unless they get funding from some place. Planet Coaster will bring some.. but then what? E's business model was not well thought out, at all. Horizons failed and they were forced to change it. But doing something like changing it to a subscription game now will fail even more.

Our time is limited, their time is limited..

I honestly don't see what future Elite: Dangerous has. By the time they can even fix and vastly improve the game.. most people will have already left for something else.

That has been my point all along.

They want to build a large foundation but didn't realize uhh hello.. you released the game already. People are not going to stay loyal for long. In fact the numbers already show it. They have a core bunch of people left over tho are rabid fans and some fans left with a small glimmer of hope. Then there are spectators waiting for it to actually get good.

You are not building the pyramids here. You really really need to put together a better mission backend with triggered events and good narrative. Community goal type missions should be automatically spawned for each faction. Start adding some actual alien life out there. Start adding some actual exploration content out there. 400 billion stars and my eyeballs are not every entertaining.