General / Off-Topic The future of Politics here in the UK

[Javert]

30 June was the last date to join to take part in any party leader election this time. Sadly I can't find a reference for that.

I've just read up on it and it appears that you have to be a party member for at least 3 months before the postal ballot, which has already passed.

@Fuzzy - the PCP have various votes to narrow it down to 2 candidates. After that those 2 candidates go to a vote of the entire party membership.

 

[Yaffle]

We're basically on the HMS Titanic at the moment with the captains all fighting with each other. Anyone see a lifeboat?

We democratically voted our lifeboat away because it had to comply with a safety regulation we think may not have been a sovereign decision. Luckily, the majority who decided to dispense with it have a clear and realistic plan of action.

 

[Adept]

Bravo. Sadly this is natural selection in action in a very real way.

Doctor: We've had your test results back and I'm afraid it's bad news. The mass we found in your liver when we did the MRI scan is definitely a hepatocellular carcinoma. It looks malignant and we need to start treatment immediately.

Patient: A hepatif car? What?

Doctor: It's cancer sir. You have a malignant tumor in your liver, that is what has been causing you pain and making you vomit blood. You need to start treatment immediately.

Patient: I don't need to do nothin'. Just some asprin. Who do you think you are tellin' me what to do?

Doctor: Actually sir you'll need to stop taking asprin with your liver in this condition. I'm going to write you a prescription for something else that will give you pain relief but it is important that we begin treatment right away.

Patient: I'll stick with the asprin, thanks anyway. It never did me any harm before so why is it gonna start now? And I don't need treatment, I just want a few antibis and it'll go away.

Doctor: Sir this is a serious disease. Antibiotics won't touch it, they are only for bacterial infections. Without proper treatment you are looking at maybe a year or so before you die. I have contacted the oncologist and she has agreed to see you tomorrow, with a view to surgery within the month and beginning chemotherapy very soon after. It is vital that the cancer isn't allowed to spread further.

Patient: What's an onkist?

Doctor: An oncologist is a cancer specialist sir. They are experts in treating this sort of illness and she will give you your best chance at a full recovery if we deal with this quickly.

Patient: Ohh experts is it? Well you look here doctor, I never went to no fancy school or nothin', but I don't trust no experts. I am not going to do this just because some cancer person tells me to.

Doctor: Sir without treatment soon you face a painful death, please be reasonable...

Patient: How dare you talk down to me like that! Listen to you with all your doom and gloom. I got a bit of belly pain now but you don't know it's gonna get worse do you? You can't trust experts just because they know stuff. I mean, just because they know stuff it doesn't mean they know stuff. So take your threats and your doom and gloom and your medical degree and stuff em'

Doctor: But Sir!

Patient: Haha, sour grapes. Think you're clever but you lost the argument! I'm off. And tell your "expert" onkligist she can shove it! That'll show you!

As our patient leaves the doctors surgery, the doctor stares in stunned disbelief at a man so determined to not feel belittled by intelligence that he would rather self-destruct than do what is best for himself.

 

[Minonian]

Just to point out, there is some confusion here with talk about fraud and votes from the vatican.

These things refer to an online petition that was set up by a leave campaigner before the referendum, but after the referendum was signed by millions of remain campaigners. There is evidence that large numbers of votes on this petition were made from outside the UK.

There is no accusation that I'm aware of that there was technical cheating in the referendum itself.

It's pretty easy to filter out the majority of votes that are openly coming from outside a country in an internet poll, and I'm sure they do this routinely when looking at these polls.

It's not quite so easy to filter out very clever people who might use a VPN proxy located in the UK to sign the petition and make it look like they are in the UK, but these would be small numbers.

It's also impossible to filter out people who were in the UK when they signed, but are not eligable voters (e.g. under 18 or not UK citizens).

However, if you've got 3 million signatures, you can be pretty sure that the majority of them are valid.

That's the case. Also the few invalid signatures, not making the whole petition invalid. You just subtract the invalid ones from the rest of it, and you still got millions. What is in my last knowledge over 4M

Edit; But anyhow i must give something to the ones who saying Online petitions are not ok, i too seeing this in the same way. They are just way too easy to fill, what means the necessary quantity must be elevated, and also more regulations are necessary to filter out cheating. Like more serious ID qualifications, valid digital signature biometrics ID, personal informations, or whatever what makes harder to simply cheat it, by someone who is not entitled to sign it.

 

[Adept]

Yer deflecting...where'd the 70k come from?

Oh and I heard more than a few thousand voted from North Korea though not sure of the number...explanation perhaps? because if it's cheating then forget any second referendum...yer camp can't be trusted to stick to the rules ^^

Becks is not deflecting, you are getting stuck on statistically insignificant figures. Let's say 5% of the signatures are not genuine, heck, let's say 20%. Does that mean that the 3+ million genuine ones now don't count? Shouldn't that logic mean that the vote doesn't count because the voters were lied to about 350 million extra funding for the NHS and stopping immigration?

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Guilty until proven innocent beyond any reasonable doubt in any court in the land I'm afraid...

What the actual...?!? Is that how you think justice works?

 

[Minonian]

Becks is not deflecting, you are getting stuck on statistically insignificant figures. Let's say 5% of the signatures are not genuine, heck, let's say 20%. Does that mean that the 3+ million genuine ones now don't count? Shouldn't that logic mean that the vote doesn't count because the voters were lied to about 350 million extra funding for the NHS and stopping immigration?

Yup, if he follows his path he is kicking his own balls too, if one is invalid because of that, than the other must be too invalid. And IF the rest of the petitions are valid, for that the whole referendum remains a fraud, and gambit, who no one took seriously, and now they realized what means to win...

 

[Javert]

Bravo. Sadly this is natural selection in action in a very real way.

This was a really good analogy and made the point very well, but I'm wondering if we are all missing something here.

The assumption is that very low paid and unemployed people will be worse off by voting to leave the EU.

This assumption may not really be correct for many people, if they have lost hope of every getting a job, or of ever getting a higher paid job that elevates them out of the lowest pay.

If they don't see any hope of this, that may put them actually in the category of people who actually have nothing to lose. As far as I know, in this country, we have a welfare state system which seeks to ensure that everybody has a roof over their head, and nobody starves to death. As such, the very lowest paid and unemployed will be somewhat shielded from things like increasing food prices a their benefits will be increased accordingly (at least according to past history). If they are assuming that the same will continue, they may believe that they have nothing to lose here.

For this type of people, the problem with the doctor analogy is that it assumes that a treatment / cure that will work is being offered, and being rejected. This is more like that the doctor has said sorry, I can't offer you any cure for your condition. I can however offer you the option to sack me and go to a different doctor. He/she probably won't have a cure either, but what have you got to lose?

I guess what I'm saying is that the analogy brilliantly makes the point that you shouldn't ignore experts, but, for some people in the UK they can argue that the experts already failed to give them better lives.

 

[Sunleader]

Meanwhile.
The Foreign Ministry in Germany has to deal with an increasing number of British People Applying to German Citicenship.
Lol....

 

[Adept]

I do believe some intelligent enough people voted leave to bring the whole system down, or out of spite towards those who have things better. If you don't care about the size of the pie, but more about how big your slice is as a proportion then voting to damage the City of London and the prospects of those who are doing well makes a certain kind of sense.

This was a really good analogy and made the point very well, but I'm wondering if we are all missing something here.

The assumption is that very low paid and unemployed people will be worse off by voting to leave the EU.

This assumption may not really be correct for many people, if they have lost hope of every getting a job, or of ever getting a higher paid job that elevates them out of the lowest pay.

If they don't see any hope of this, that may put them actually in the category of people who actually have nothing to lose. As far as I know, in this country, we have a welfare state system which seeks to ensure that everybody has a roof over their head, and nobody starves to death. As such, the very lowest paid and unemployed will be somewhat shielded from things like increasing food prices a their benefits will be increased accordingly (at least according to past history). If they are assuming that the same will continue, they may believe that they have nothing to lose here.

For this type of people, the problem with the doctor analogy is that it assumes that a treatment / cure that will work is being offered, and being rejected. This is more like that the doctor has said sorry, I can't offer you any cure for your condition. I can however offer you the option to sack me and go to a different doctor. He/she probably won't have a cure either, but what have you got to lose?

I guess what I'm saying is that the analogy brilliantly makes the point that you shouldn't ignore experts, but, for some people in the UK they can argue that the experts already failed to give them better lives.

 

[FuzzySpider]

This was a really good analogy and made the point very well, but I'm wondering if we are all missing something here.

The assumption is that very low paid and unemployed people will be worse off by voting to leave the EU.

This assumption may not really be correct for many people, if they have lost hope of every getting a job, or of ever getting a higher paid job that elevates them out of the lowest pay.

If they don't see any hope of this, that may put them actually in the category of people who actually have nothing to lose. As far as I know, in this country, we have a welfare state system which seeks to ensure that everybody has a roof over their head, and nobody starves to death. As such, the very lowest paid and unemployed will be somewhat shielded from things like increasing food prices a their benefits will be increased accordingly (at least according to past history). If they are assuming that the same will continue, they may believe that they have nothing to lose here.

For this type of people, the problem with the doctor analogy is that it assumes that a treatment / cure that will work is being offered, and being rejected. This is more like that the doctor has said sorry, I can't offer you any cure for your condition. I can however offer you the option to sack me and go to a different doctor. He/she probably won't have a cure either, but what have you got to lose?

I guess what I'm saying is that the analogy brilliantly makes the point that you shouldn't ignore experts, but, for some people in the UK they can argue that the experts already failed to give them better lives.

Absolutely true.

However, look at this pragmatically. The poor, particularly the unemployed, have had a seriously hard time of it recently. The recession already crushed them, but the Tories went wild on them. Severe austerity measures, benefit cuts, no longer linking benefits to inflation, and the loss of various schemes to help them find actual work (such as the New Deal) were bad enough. But then there was the ultimate humiliation - the work program. The government basically now force people who have been unemployed for a certain length of time to work, for a private and profitable company such as Tescos, for no remuneration at all beyond their benefits.

Imagine doing a 9-5 job at Tesco and taking home £78 per week.

Such people are indeed at rock bottom, but at least that £78 is bottom. As the pound drops in value the price of food and energy is going to rise. Furthermore tax rises are going to happen as well as further cuts. Welfare is the thing they love to cut, and the tax the Tories love to raise is VAT, which hits the poorest the hardest.

Even worse, many many thousands, perhaps more, will lose their jobs, further fueling competition in the job market and driving down hiring costs for unskilled and even semi-skilled workers, further widening the chasm between rich and poor.

This is very much a doomsday scenario for those at the bottom, and I don't have a crystal ball. But I know is that the same gutter tabloid press that made this country hate Muslims considers benefit claimants public enemy number 2 behind immigrants, and that the Tories have no love for benefits either. Cuts are coming, where do you think they'll likely be?

 

[Becks]

This was a really good analogy and made the point very well, but I'm wondering if we are all missing something here.

The assumption is that very low paid and unemployed people will be worse off by voting to leave the EU.

This assumption may not really be correct for many people, if they have lost hope of every getting a job, or of ever getting a higher paid job that elevates them out of the lowest pay.

If they don't see any hope of this, that may put them actually in the category of people who actually have nothing to lose. As far as I know, in this country, we have a welfare state system which seeks to ensure that everybody has a roof over their head, and nobody starves to death. As such, the very lowest paid and unemployed will be somewhat shielded from things like increasing food prices a their benefits will be increased accordingly (at least according to past history). If they are assuming that the same will continue, they may believe that they have nothing to lose here.

For this type of people, the problem with the doctor analogy is that it assumes that a treatment / cure that will work is being offered, and being rejected. This is more like that the doctor has said sorry, I can't offer you any cure for your condition. I can however offer you the option to sack me and go to a different doctor. He/she probably won't have a cure either, but what have you got to lose?

I guess what I'm saying is that the analogy brilliantly makes the point that you shouldn't ignore experts, but, for some people in the UK they can argue that the experts already failed to give them better lives.

 

[beelbeebub]

Yes I did vote out and yes, mostly to ensure my daughters future...a declaration that many here don't appear to understand. I'm being vague for a very good reason and that reason are that my motives are based along the lines of saying no to an open immigration policy. My belief is that this would be the beginning of the end...a belief which many consider xenophobic at best and purely racist at worst...hence why I was being vague. I'm fairly sure that anyone following that particular train of thought could very easily work out why I say I'm looking out for my daughter's future...might put a bad taste in yer mouth when ye think of the logic behind it but there it is...my reasons for voting out.

Verminstar, clearly Remain have hugely misjudged to public mood and questioning the intelligence and morals of Leave voters is not a recipe for success.

You hint that immigration was your driver and you are fully aware of the downsides economically and politically. So I'm assuming your reason must be great enough to trump those.

If I may aid, which aspect of immigration was it? Was it the pressure on services like housing, schools etc? Was it the issue of jobs? Maybe the benefits arguments? What about the cultural angle, large groups of people with different customs, food etc changing the "character" of the community? was it EU or nonEU migration that impacted you?

Finally, was it personal experience or was it the more what you believe is coming that informed your decision?

I'm asking because like many in this referendum I lack contact with "the other side" all but two people I know are remain, which makes it hard to understand the other's point of view. Both sides are guilty of caricaturing the other's motivations e.g. Leavers are thick old racists, Remainers are smug elitists with their shots in the EU trough. Such characterisations do neither side any good as they reduce the complex reasons for an individual's decision into a sound bite and prevent actual understanding of grievances.

As a mainly Remain thread, we need input from leavers to actually make progress forwards rather than simply spinning in circles gazing at our own navels.

 

[Anon Sin]

The future of politics in Great Britain is democracy. Unless of course the legal and democratic choice is overturned by the salty and immature losers who claim to be democratic and patriotic,then Great Britain will be come either a Facist state or a Communist state or more likely become just a EU puppet-state.
' Rule Britannia '

 

[verminstar]

Becks is not deflecting, you are getting stuck on statistically insignificant figures. Let's say 5% of the signatures are not genuine, heck, let's say 20%. Does that mean that the 3+ million genuine ones now don't count? Shouldn't that logic mean that the vote doesn't count because the voters were lied to about 350 million extra funding for the NHS and stopping immigration?

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -



What the actual...?!? Is that how you think justice works?

Statistically unimportant but the reasoning behind it is not. Those were just the obvious forgeries...what about those not yet found? Can you honestly put hand on heart and say it should still be valid, knowing it has been hacked but not knowing to what extent? Seriously now...could you accept that were the situation reversed?

Justice? Justice is nothing more than a failed ideal...justice now is about how good yer brief is and how much money ye have to throw at what has become a failed justice system. If you could only see a fraction of what I have seen in my lifetime...oh my.

Do I believe that is how "justice" works? No...I know that's how it works. Lets just say I didn't have the benefit of a nice suburban childhood filled with happy happy memories of how helpful the community bobby was...quite the opposite I can assure you, so yes...where I'm from, that is exactly how "justice" works and has done for as long as I can remember.

I'll admit, I have lived in other parts of the UK where the situation is entirely different...like stepping into another world...so perhaps where you are from, the justice system works. True justice on this estate takes the form of a 3am knock on the door by a couple big lads in ski masks and baseball bats because "justice" has failed us so many times. And because of this long and painful history, support on this estate is very strong because it has proven to be 100% effective...whereas the "justice" system? Not so much, we learned the hard way not to trust them. Do I support that? No, but what choice do we have when faced with a police force who are well known for their ethos of "guilty until proven innocent"

If you live in a part of the country where such a thing is unthinkable then fair enough...but please try and understand that the playing field is really not as level as you like to think it is. In some parts, things have gone from bad to worse and complaining about things means we are immediately considered "a problem"...or racist or just plain dumb...sound familiar?

Because of this, we will have very different ideas about how things are supposed to work and how things actually work on the ground.

And just for the record...I saw someone discussing bringing back public hanging here saying there is an apparent majority for it...guess what...I'm one of em. Life for a life...same fer peedos who have the privilege of losing their nuts. Probably never get it, but I would support it ^^

 

[Spook]

I'm asking because like many in this referendum I lack contact with "the other side" all but two people I know are remain, which makes it hard to understand the other's point of view. Both sides are guilty of caricaturing the other's motivations e.g. Leavers are thick old racists, Remainers are smug elitists with their shots in the EU trough. Such characterisations do neither side any good as they reduce the complex reasons for an individual's decision into a sound bite and prevent actual understanding of grievances.

Repped, particularly for this bit.

 

[Minonian]

The other thing what i can't agree with? This is the poll result, the people chosen. live with it!

I disagree! Reasons?

It's true the people voted, and this is democracy, but if the people changes his mind and vote otherwise? That's also democracy.
Second reason. At the first time they gone in blindly, not knowing the true results and consequences, of their actions. Only to find out they have benn mislead and lied.

Now the want to choose a second time, and now, this time they will thankfully for the freshly accumlated experience going to choose more wisely.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/proof-that-things-can-always-get-worse.jpg

You have no idea...

 

[Adept]

So what is it that you actually want?

You don't trust the courts or the policw, and think that the system has failed you and the neighborhood you grew up in. You want not only capital punishment but actual public hangings. Wouldn't that just get people from your circles hanged then if the police and courts are against you? From bad to worse.

You want out of EU who demands respect for human rights and rule of law. So you feel the police are corrupt, but don't want pressure from the outside into fixing it?

Who do you want to rule the UK? Nigel the MEP who doesn't bother to turn up to work in the fisheries commitee to defend British interests in the EU? Gove because he tells you to "not trust the experts"?

You sure seem angry. I get the protest vote, but what do you actually want? Just to see the world burn, including the UK?

Statistically unimportant but the reasoning behind it is not. Those were just the obvious forgeries...what about those not yet found? Can you honestly put hand on heart and say it should still be valid, knowing it has been hacked but not knowing to what extent? Seriously now...could you accept that were the situation reversed?

Justice? Justice is nothing more than a failed ideal...justice now is about how good yer brief is and how much money ye have to throw at what has become a failed justice system. If you could only see a fraction of what I have seen in my lifetime...oh my.



Do I believe that is how "justice" works? No...I know that's how it works. Lets just say I didn't have the benefit of a nice suburban childhood filled with happy happy memories of how helpful the community bobby was...quite the opposite I can assure you, so yes...where I'm from, that is exactly how "justice" works and has done for as long as I can remember.

I'll admit, I have lived

in other parts of the UK where the situation is entirely different...like stepping into another world...so perhaps where you are from, the justice system works. True justice on this estate takes the form of a 3am knock on the door by a couple big lads in ski masks and baseball bats because "justice" has failed us so many times. And because of this long and painful history, support on this estate is very strong because it has proven to be 100% effective...whereas the "justice" system? Not so much, we learned the hard way not to trust them. Do I support that? No, but what choice do we have when faced with a police force who are well known for their ethos of "guilty until proven innocent"

If you live in a part of the country where such a thing is unthinkable then fair enough...but please try and understand that the playing field is really not as level as you like to think it is. In some parts, things have gone from bad to worse and complaining about things means we are immediately considered "a problem"...or racist or just plain dumb...sound familiar?

Because of this, we will have very different ideas about how things are supposed to work and how things actually work on the ground.

And just for the record...I saw someone discussing bringing back public hanging here saying there is an apparent majority for it...guess what...I'm one of em. Life for a life...same fer peedos who have the privilege of losing their nuts. Probably never get it, but I would support it ^^

 

[Spook]

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...s-here-in-the-UK/page19?p=4187685#post4187685

You have no idea...

Well done, your obvious delight at the possibility the UK will suffer because it had the temerity to vote against your own particular view from where is it - Hungary?, is most enlightening. Perhaps you didn't lay on the doom and gloom enough. If only Becks had told us one more time that the "EU will Spank us" if we choose to leave. May be we need some more of Adepts "political re-education".

Sorry, what's done is done. Now's the time to figure out a way forwards, not more childish mud-slinging and "ner ner ner - told you so."

How is the EU's credit rating holding up these days.....

 

[Sunleader]

Well done, your obvious delight at the possibility the UK will suffer because it had the temerity to vote against your own particular view from where is it - Hungary?, is most enlightening. Perhaps you didn't lay on the doom and gloom enough. If only Becks had told us one more time that the "EU will Spank us" if we choose to leave. May be we need some more of Adepts "political re-education".

Sorry, what's done is done. Now's the time to figure out a way forwards, not more childish mud-slinging and "ner ner ner - told you so."

How is the EU's credit rating holding up these days.....

The Child fell into the Well.
So we say        g pull it out again and next time dont let it play there.

There is no way forward.

 

[Adept]

I wasn't the one talking about political re-education. I'm all for education for all however, especially in the area of Critical Reading skills so populations aren't captivated by populist demagogues.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_reading

Well done, your obvious delight at the possibility the UK will suffer because it had the temerity to vote against your own particular view from where is it - Hungary?, is most enlightening. Perhaps you didn't lay on the doom and gloom enough. If only Becks had told us one more time that the "EU will Spank us" if we choose to leave. May be we need some more of Adepts "political re-education".

Sorry, what's done is done. Now's the time to figure out a way forwards, not more childish mud-slinging and "ner ner ner - told you so."

How is the EU's credit rating holding up these days.....