General / Off-Topic Hungary Calls EU Referendum on EU's Mandatory Migrant Quotas

[Sunleader]

Both. Quality, and quantity together.

What you lack of numbers, you can make up with with preparedness. what you lack in preparedness you make up with numbers. Plus, the leaders are need foot soldiers too...
And these are going to come from within the migrants.

ISIS does not have the Numbers to waste them in Europe mate.
Maybe you forgot but they are in War and are Hard Up for Soldiers.
Sending someone with a Knife to Attack a Bystander and maybe getting Killed before ever Arising is not something they can do right now.


Moreover Numbers of useless dregs can be archieved by recruiting people already in Europe.
It would be Stupid to send People they can use as Soldiers to the EU just so they die there mostly without any effect.

 

[Minonian]

ISIS does not have the Numbers to waste them in Europe mate.
Maybe you forgot but they are in War and are Hard Up for Soldiers.
Sending someone with a Knife to Attack a Bystander and maybe getting Killed before ever Arising is not something they can do right now.


Moreover Numbers of useless dregs can be archieved by recruiting people already in Europe.
It would be Stupid to send People they can use as Soldiers to the EU just so they die there mostly without any effect.

Than again, they are not sending people to attack but to build up the framework of future terrorist organization. Stupid or not? resourceful or not? It does not matter... Eventually some of them will succeed and starting the whole mess anew, in even worst form. The smart ones? Will be the leaders, the rest, and the radicalizable lot coming trough right now? They will be the the foot soldiers of the organization. And if you think they need to know the place to get in contact? You are wrong. They are only need to know each others. Meeting places? Muslim temples. Some secret sign, clothing hand sign, phrase or whatever will do. Rest assured they will coming trough they will pick up contact they will build up, they will wait, they will observe, they will in secret grow in numbers, until they can strike, that's probably going to happen decades later, but it will going to happen.

 

[Sunleader]

Than again, they are not sending people to attack but to build up the framework of future terrorist organization. Stupid or not? resourceful or not? It does not matter... Eventually some of them will succeed and starting the whole mess anew, in even worst form. The smart ones? Will be the leaders, the rest, and the radicalizable lot coming trough right now? They will be the the foot soldiers of the organization. And if you think they need to know the place to get in contact? You are wrong. They are only need to know each others. Meeting places? Muslim temples. Some secret sign, clothing hand sign, phrase or whatever will do. Rest assured they will coming trough they will pick up contact they will build up, they will wait, they will observe, they will in secret grow in numbers, until they can strike, that's probably going to happen decades later, but it will going to happen.

Sigh....
Mate.

1.
For Terrorist Actions you need Agents. Not Foot Soldiers.
Amassing a larger Group only attracts Police Attention.


2.
So you got up with this Idea in a few Minutes. And you think the Police is so Stupid that they wont realize something like that ?
You think if Refugees who dont know the Place Suddenly start Frequenting a Mosk or something in the Area the Police will not Notice ?
You think if People who are not Refugees come to the Refugee Camps or Homes and Start Talking there. Nobody of the Refugees will tell that and the Police wont notice ?

For how Stupid do you take our Police ?


3.
None of the "Smarter" People would ever Risk being Tracked back by attempting to gather Foot Soldiers.
An Smart Agent Send here as Proper Immigrant suddenly taking Contacts to Refugees would risk his entire Plan. He would Risk losing his Job and grab Attention of the Police. The absolute last thing any of these People want.

Mate no Offense. But thats Nonsense. ISIS aint this Stupid that they would waste their Agents which could deal much Damage by an well Planned Attack. In an effort to gather Foot Soldiers and Plan some Large Scale Mob which would just end being Massacred by the Police.



Get this into your Head pls.
That Right Wing Bull     that Trump and other Lunatics keep Spouting of Terrorists coming as Refugees and such Tinfoil stuff of them Building an Secret Army in Europe with the Refugees is utter Nonsense.

It would be completely Idiotic for ISIS to Waste their People like that.
As I said before. They have MUCH MUCH better Ways to bring Terrorists in.

For your Info. If ISIS wants to Bring in Foot Soldiers. Their Preferred method is to send them by having them Shipped to Fisher Boats which actually Dock in the EU or Simply Unload them at the Coast at Night and which can bring People with Equipment and Money into the EU which have Forget Documents that allow them to move around in the Places where they are going to Operate. And which will then get an Cheap Apartment with the Money they bought along. Being able to Store their Weapons and Equipment before any Police gets to Control them.
Why the      should they bother Sending more or less Naked "Foot Soldiers" to the EU which would be hindered like hell to do anything there ????



Seriously Man.
Would you send Naked Foot Soldiers to an Enemy if you have Easier and Cheaper ways to send them Fully Armed and Equipped ???
Accept this. Refugees are NOT going to be used to Send Terrorists on a Large Scale. It would be Incredible Ineffective. ISIS has Tons of more Effective Ways to bring Foot Soldiers over here if they wanted to do that.
Just that this wont happen. Because they need their Foot Soldiers themselves.

 

[Minonian]

You understand nothing. They are not soldiers, or agents they are infiltrators, simple mans, (sleepers) whom have radical views. They don't attack they build the framework of a future organization.
And now we just repeating ourselves. Sorry but there is no point to continue.

 

[Javert]

You understand nothing. They are not soldiers, or agents they are infiltrators, simple mans, (sleepers) whom have radical views. They don't attack they build the framework of a future organization.
And now we just repeating ourselves. Sorry but there is no point to continue.

Do you have any evidence for your claims (other than from Hollywood movies)?

What Sunleader is saying makes a lot of sense - it doesn't seem like coming in as a refugee status is a good way for a terrorist infiltrator to enter the country.

 

[Minonian]

Either of you know what a sleeper agent is?

In short, they come naked, so they don't draw any suspicion, they do nothing suspicious just living their everyday life, until its time or they got into position. And to insert a lot of fanatics like this, the immigration wave is the perfect resolution, they are just disappear in the mass. Not soldiers, not warriors not field agents, just fanatics's and there are a lot of fundamentalists within the newcomers. All of them poses a possible threat in the future.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeper_agent

Edit; And there are just too many people to watch all of the closely, in a mass this big is near to impossible to keep an eye in all suspicious people, and after a while the secret services, and cops going to stop watching the newcomers, 5-10 years or so? After that they can activise themselves.

 

[Javert]

Either of you know what a sleeper agent is?

In short, they come naked, so they don't draw any suspicion, they do nothing suspicious just living their everyday life, until its time or they got into position. And to insert a lot of fanatics like this, the immigration wave is the perfect resolution, they are just disappear in the mass. Not soldiers, not warriors not field agents, just fanatics's and there are a lot of fundamentalists within the newcomers. All of them poses a possible threat in the future.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeper_agent

Edit; And there are just too many people to watch all of the closely, in a mass this big is near to impossible to keep an eye in all suspicious people, and after a while the secret services, and cops going to stop watching the newcomers, 5-10 years or so? After that they can activise themselves.

Yes I know what a sleeper agent is, but you still haven't really answered the points that Sunleader made that getting a sleeper agent into the country by a refugee status is not a good way to get them installed into the country at all, for many reasons but partly because they probably won't even be allowed to stay in the country legally long term anyway.

You also have not acknowledged that there is a fundamental difference between refugees fleeing conflict (who will generally either only be able to get shelter for a period of time, or attempt to apply for asylum status), and an immigrant who is coming into the country with a leave to remain of some kind.

The other interesting thing about all these theories of sleeper agents is that they are very helpful to extreme right wing parties who want to get into power and move towards a more fascist type government, and like conspiracy theories, by definition they cannot be disproved.

How do you know that half the people in your country aren't sleeper agents who are the descendants of Genghis Khan who are going to come and kill you in your sleep on 25th August 2025?

 

[Minonian]

Yes I know what a sleeper agent is, but you still haven't really answered the points that Sunleader made that getting a sleeper agent into the country by a refugee status is not a good way to get them installed into the country at all, for many reasons but partly because they probably won't even be allowed to stay in the country legally long term anyway.

Wrong... I already answered this sleeper agents are always used in large quantities, because the insertion is problematic, and even so to get them into position, is more about dumb luck like the ex KGB Bela Kovacs from my home, whom got into the Eu parliament only to turn out he was is Putin payroll. So, as i stated before, the large numbers of loss is made up with sheer numbers and there is no lack of fundamentalists in the M east. may will fail he is right about that, but some will succeed and thats good enough. Just like in a game. No matter how many time you fail as far you have enough life, sooner or later you make it trough the level.

You also have not acknowledged that there is a fundamental difference between refugees fleeing conflict (who will generally either only be able to get shelter for a period of time, or attempt to apply for asylum status), and an immigrant who is coming into the country with a leave to remain of some kind.

You are right about that, i did not acknowledged i denied it. Because as i stated earlier all trough they are all refugees (in words and on paper) but the EU dealing with them as immigrants, and so as they are coming with the intention of stay, and because of that they will not stopping in the first safe country but keep moving toward the richer ones. Their status are given or not? Thats another question.

The other interesting thing about all these theories of sleeper agents is that they are very helpful to extreme right wing parties who want to get into power and move towards a more fascist type government, and like conspiracy theories, by definition they cannot be disproved.

Until it's too late... But as i kept saying in situations like this? We shall see... Just sit back and wait 5-10 years at the lowest and the fireworks will start.

How do you know that half the people in your country aren't sleeper agents who are the descendants of Genghis Khan who are going to come and kill you in your sleep on 25th August 2025?

Excuse me? (no offense intended) But this is just as stupid as it can get. I know its not because this is total nonsense. But to assume some fundamentalists are gonna come to the EU is not so far fetched, in this situation. Especially if you consider 1/5 of the turkish living in germany wants to live by the rules of Sarai law. Now, wanna guess how hard to turn this people into radicals, if some fanatics's gone trough, in one way or another?
The truth is, W europe are already sitting on a gun powder keg. And sooner or later a spark going to blew the whole thing up.

(german link)

https://www.uni-muenster.de/Religion-und-Politik/

 

[Sunleader]

You understand nothing. They are not soldiers, or agents they are infiltrators, simple mans, (sleepers) whom have radical views. They don't attack they build the framework of a future organization.
And now we just repeating ourselves. Sorry but there is no point to continue.

Mate no Offense. But I would assume I know way more about this than you.

A Sleeper. Is an HIGHLY SKILLED and TRAINED Agent.
Send into an Country to hide there till Activated. These aint Foot Soldiers. A sleeper neexs extensive training and education.

A Sleeper to have any effect needs to Integrate himself entirely into the Enemy Structure without raising Suspicion to then cause a well Striked Damage if called upon.


No Organization with any sorts of Strategical knowledge.
Would Send such an Agent as Refugee.


1.
Refugees run a high risk of death which is completely stupid for something like such an expensively trained Agent.
2.
Refugees have little to no way to reach the positions to actually cause damage. Because they have no or very limited work permissions.
3.
Refugees have a severe handicap to integrate themselves making it almost impossible for them to actually get connections for weapons without raising suspicion.
4.
Refugees are often controlled and get more attention from police which makes them bad undercover agents.
5.
Refugees are time limited. Meaning they dont have time to establish deeper positions.
6.
And refugees have it very difficult to obtain money which makes it hard to get any equipment at all




Meanwhile over the normal immigration programs such Sleepers can easily get into the country get integrated and build up money and position to cause massive damage.

So WHY THE      should they waste such people and send em as Refugees??????


And before you come with this.
To be a sleeper you need extensive training social skills and discipline.
Its not something a random foot soldier can manage.



Pls Mate stop it.
Your repeating the Bullcrab that people like Nigel Farage and Donald Trump are spouting.
Its Embarassing to even read this from you.....

 

[Minonian]

They don't need to send highly skilled agents, they are need to send fanatics's to fan the flame of religious revolution. And the darn thing about religious fanaticism the stupider he is, the better he gets.

All they need to know how to keep a low profile, until their time come. And terrorists are good in this.

 

[Sunleader]

They don't need to send highly skilled agents, they are need to send fanatics's to fan the flame of religious revolution. And the darn thing about religious fanaticism the stupider he is, the better he gets.

All they need to know how to keep a low profile, until their time come. And terrorists are good in this.

Mate no offense.
But Fanatiks especially without training are really really bad at keeping a low profile.
And they are completely useless as Sleepers because they dont get any positions or money to actually do something.
Needless to say that without the right knowledge and Contacts any attempt to get Weapons etc will bring you a very fast visit from a Swat Team.

Sorry Man but seriously. Your talking yourself completely into the off there.
This stuff doesnt work even remotely how you seem to think it does.

The Idea that Refugees could even influence Politics is completely off as well. They have no Voting rights so most Politicians dont give a wet one about their opinion.



Sorry Mate.
But in 5-10 Years you wont have any more Fireworks than we got now. Except Russia Attacks.
The Refugees wont do anything....

 

[Minonian]

You think so? Than i sorry to say this but you have no idea how terrorism works, how the fanatic minority capable to influence the whole. For example, take a look at to the english referendum, and it's outcome.

(Sorry for the double post delete this one PLS)

 

[Minonian]

Mate no offense.
But Fanatiks especially without training are really really bad at keeping a low profile.

You think so? Than i sorry to say this but you have no idea how terrorism works, how the fanatic minority capable to influence the whole. For example, take a look at to the english referendum, and it's outcome. And sure as hell, you don't have the slightest idea, how religious or any kind of stupidity can spread. They don't have to be smart, to be crafty, in the matter of fact education an natural smartness, only makes harder to be fantasized in this level. You know why? Because they have to be convincing! And to be convincing at first you need to be sure to yourself you need to be convinced your own truth, and only a really stupid people are capable to be so convinced about a dumbness what they are saying. And you either don't need big brain to be a big talker. You just need an extrovert person, to be convincing. Speech craft, the art of influencing others, are not about smartness, and abilities. Its about cunningness.

But let me help you out terrorist / guerrilla warfare are about to keep a low profile, until you strike. They know this. They learned this from childhood. damn it! This is how half of the m east lives!

Needless to say that without the right knowledge and Contacts any attempt to get Weapons etc will bring you a very fast visit from a Swat Team.

And you still talking about attacking while i talking about influencing the Muslim population what's there. Take a note! We are not talking about the same thing!
Furthermore you don't need contacts or a lot of money to brew some explosives make improvised explosive devices, out of household materials. All you need to know its recipe. And they know that.
Cheap, easy, and lethal.

 

[Sunleader]

You think so? Than i sorry to say this but you have no idea how terrorism works, how the fanatic minority capable to influence the whole. For example, take a look at to the english referendum, and it's outcome. And sure as hell, you don't have the slightest idea, how religious or any kind of stupidity can spread. They don't have to be smart, to be crafty, in the matter of fact education an natural smartness, only makes harder to be fantasized in this level. You know why? Because they have to be convincing! And to be convincing at first you need to be sure to yourself you need to be convinced your own truth, and only a really stupid people are capable to be so convinced about a dumbness what they are saying. And you either don't need big brain to be a big talker. You just need an extrovert person, to be convincing. Speech craft, the art of influencing others, are not about smartness, and abilities. Its about cunningness.

But let me help you out terrorist / guerrilla warfare are about to keep a low profile, until you strike. They know this. They learned this from childhood. damn it! This is how half of the m east lives!



And you still talking about attacking while i talking about influencing the Muslim population what's there. Take a note! We are not talking about the same thing!
Furthermore you don't need contacts or a lot of money to brew some explosives make improvised explosive devices, out of household materials. All you need to know its recipe. And they know that.
Cheap, easy, and lethal.

Mate no Offense but you Sound like Donald Trump.....

People in UK who stirred up stuff are British Citizens with Full Voting Rights.
They aint Refugees......
Refugees cannot vote they cannot influence politics.
And even if you assume that they would somehow manage to get every single muslime to their side.
They would have a Party which would not even crack the 5% blocker to get an minority party into the Parliament.......


And Mate to begin with the assumption that they can do this. Is complete rubbish.
Because you need social competence to actually influence people.


YOU have absolutely no idea how Terrorism works Mate.
Your being Intimidated by a Scarecrow that People like Nigel Farage have set up.

Guerillia Tactics only work if the Majority of the local Populace is Friendly with you or under your control.
Otherwise it cannot work.



And Mate.
Many of the most Intelligent Scientists are Religious.
Beliefs and Education are tied very closely up to this day.
Especially in Eastern Countries were Education up to this day is often in the hands of the Religion.



Sorry Man but seriously stop it. You got absolutely no idea of this stuff and the only thing your archieving right now is that people see you as an Tinfoil Head.
Refugees are the absolute least efficient and most risky way for ISIS to send people here.
And Sorry but if ISIS worked like you suggest it here. They would have lost the War years ago.

 

[Minonian]

At first there is a difference between begin religious, and fanatics. At second call me up after you take the effort to understand what i'm talking about, and answer to that instead just say what you want to say.

Until than? This conservation is over.

"Guerillia Tactics only work if the Majority of the local Populace is Friendly with you or under your control.
Otherwise it cannot work."

Like the Muslim ghettos in brussel?

"And Mate to begin with the assumption that they can do this. Is complete rubbish.
Because you need social competence to actually influence people."

Yep, this is what i talking about to be convincing you don't need skills you need to touch with the people. Right now, you take my worlds, and sayin what im sayin with other words, after that you turn out my words, and attacking exactly what im saying making me looks like i'm talking about something entirely different. This is also straw man reasoning.

And as i said there is no point to continue this conservation, until you start to talk with me instead jut saying what you want want. answering to what you think im saying. Have a nice day, and don't brother to answer, because you going to have no reaction.

Edit
to everyone;
BTW? Stop dig out 10 years old trash in hope it's works against me. I let you to find it because its no use, long resolved matter, which worked against a rookie but useless against a wet.
And to be honest, i find funny the efforts you lots take just to throw at me some stupid     .

I'm not the same person what i was and until most of the people i'm not slept over the last 10 years to learn, and change, develop nothing.

 

[Sunleader]

At first there is a difference between begin religious, and fanatics. At second call me up after you take the effort to understand what i'm talking about, and answer to that instead just say what you want to say.

Until than? This conservation is over.

"Guerillia Tactics only work if the Majority of the local Populace is Friendly with you or under your control.
Otherwise it cannot work."

Like the Muslim ghettos in brussel?

"And Mate to begin with the assumption that they can do this. Is complete rubbish.
Because you need social competence to actually influence people."

Yep, this is what i talking about to be convincing you don't need skills you need to touch with the people. Right now, you take my worlds, and sayin what im sayin with other words, after that you turn out my words, and attacking exactly what im saying making me looks like i'm talking about something entirely different. This is also straw man reasoning.

And as i said there is no point to continue this conservation, until you start to talk with me instead jut saying what you want want. answering to what you think im saying. Have a nice day, and don't brother to answer, because you going to have no reaction.

Edit
to everyone;
BTW? Stop dig out 10 years old trash in hope it's works against me. I let you to find it because its no use, long resolved matter, which worked against a rookie but useless against a wet.
And to be honest, i find funny the efforts you lots take just to throw at me some stupid     .

I'm not the same person what i was and until most of the people i'm not slept over the last 10 years to learn, and change, develop nothing.

1.
Mate.
There is always Differences. But Fanatics are Fanatics because they are Fanatic.
People are Fanatic have this thing that they are Fanatic you know. They aint exactly good at keeping a low Profile....
Much less if they received no extensive Training to the End of being able to Integrate themselves and hide their true Nature....

2.
Well guess what. In Brussels alot of Info goes towards the Police because these Muslimes are for most Part Casuals who only want to life a good life and are very disturbed by Terrorists and Radicals.
Up to the Point that they are the ones most worried about the Police not doing much more to remove Preachers etc from the area.....

3.
Mate you need to be Convincing and Charismatic for this kind of stuff. Something Fanatics in General are very Bad at....
Do you know how many Agents the Countries lost thanks to them blowing their Cover when trying to win Locals over ???
There is a reason why Secret Services now days have massive Training Schools for Teaching their People how to be Subtle....
Radicals are very Bad at this. Its easy for Right Wing Radicals to talk people into being scared from an Minority. But its really Hard to talk an Minority into attacking the Majority....

4.
On this one I agree. There is no Sense in this Conversation. You have absolutely no Idea what your Talking about there. Your Scared of an Scarecrow set up by People like Nigel Farage and Donald Trump. And your Scared so     less that you stopped thinking properly thus ignoring any sort of Logical Reasoning and simply believing that an Big Organization like ISIS would Waste Potential Soldiers by doing something completely ineffective despite having an ten times more effective way to do it....
If ISIS worked like you claim it to be working there. It would have long been Destroyed. Because what your suggesting is complete rubbish from any Tactical or Strategical View.
Your current Ideas on Terrorist Tactics are roughly as effective as George W Bushs Speech about Attacking the Taliban in Afgahnistan with Battleships......

5.
Mate your no Veteran. Heck you got no Idea what your even Talking about....
If you really Spend 10 Years Listening to People like Farage you have at best become worse.
Not better.


Greetz Sun