Elite Babysitter...

[Aewarin Jameson]

*Ok what about persistent pirating ?
*Agree about hackers and cheaters
*Does that mean if I dont like somebody i can report it too ? Or its just when someone is cursing and offending You ?

Again what is the "persistent griefer" mean exacly ?

Report anything you want - it's there to get help if you feel you need it. FD would deal with problems on a case by case basis. If you don't like someone FD would probably advise you to put them on ignore / mute them. If they are harassing you then FD would take action.

I am not sure what you meant by "Persistent pirating" - Do you mean someone who is always a pirate (like I will be) or someone who keeps picking on you ? If it's the former then that's a valid role within ED so deal with it; if it's the latter then either go to a different star system or ignore them.

A "persistent griefer" is someone who causes issues with other players (outside of the game rules) and despite warnings by FD fail to stop. Griefing can mean many things of course but its usually someone who's objective is to ruin yours. As this is subjective it's down to FD to determine any repercussions hence the report button.

 

[Thorn Black]

Griefing is when one player consistantly kills the SAME person over and over and over without intent other than to aggrevate the other person.

This is not what piracy is.. unless you of course kills the same person over and over and over not stating your intent.. then youre a griefer

So griefing in itself its ok ? Im confused here, the other person wrote about persistent griefers to be deal with ...

What about people overusing the tool to report or to be deal with ? What if I will cause You to kill me lots of times that report You as griefer, thus griefing You out of the game (ultimate griefing ?) dooh. .. so many rules, so many oportunities ...

 

[Robert Maynard]

If piracy is not a form of griefing then what is it? I can understand smuggling not being a form of griefing but piracy?

Piracy has been a cornerstone of Elite from the outset - as there are no rigidly defined roles, the player can adopt any role as simply as if changing a hat.

Therefore, piracy using in-game forms is perfectly acceptable, if at times unwelcome.

 

[tooterfish]

So, an NPC interdicts you and demands your cargo.

Who's griefing you in this scenario? Why is it suddenly different if a player does it?

Piracy isn't griefing, it's been part of Elite for 30 years. No one is saying it should be easy, or that pirates should have free reign, but classifying it as griefing is incredibly narrow minded.

 

[Malicar]

Piracy has been a cornerstone of Elite from the outset - as there are no rigidly defined roles, the player can adopt any role as simply as if changing a hat.

Therefore, piracy using in-game forms is perfectly acceptable, if at times unwelcome.

So in PvP does the other player take a faction hit if they are the aggressor? Do they become flagged as criminals for attacking a non hostile player in the same faction and draw local police and or military? Do player pirates ask for cargo to be dropped or just kos? Or does their bounty just go up and off they go with little to no repercussion whatsoever?

 

[Thorn Black]

So, an NPC interdicts you and demands your cargo.

Who's griefing you in this scenario? Why is it suddenly different if a player does it?

Piracy isn't griefing, it's been part of Elite for 30 years. No one is saying it should be easy, or that pirates should have free reign, but classifying it as griefing is incredibly narrow minded.

But that is what they will do ! They will say Youre griefer cos they died many times doin the same mistake everytime again and again, trying to go to that anarchic system when You or me sits and Pirate (aka grief) anyone who comes by.
It wont work. I guarantee You.

 

[Globusdiablo]

I have that special bottle of rum especially for You, we can enjoy it somwhere in anarchic system, in that special dark corner of universe where man laws do not interferre our drinking

But he won't share it with you. He'll kill you and drink your rum while selling off your cargo...

...For example: Scooped cargo is automatically 'stolen' so anyone can set a trap for others by dumping a cannister. How can anyone expect to have some right of posession over cargo they jettisoned ? IMHO, if you dump cargo then you lost it, dude, & it belongs to whoever can take it. And this was supposed to protect players from 2 (or more) pirates working together, one doing the killing & gaining the bounty, the other stays clean because all he does is scoop the wreckage. The result is criminalizing anyone who scoops cargo with no apparent owner, & who could be dead/long gone/untraceable. The result is worse than the behaviour it was supposed to prevent because it allows people to attack others 'legally'.

Good point. This should certainly be rectified. Jettisoned cargo should be fair game.

...What I really, really don't want is a game that facilitates the sort of PK mentality where people shoot at other people just for fun, and completely ignore any logic of the setting. World of Tanks and Warthunder are there for that. I expect a whole lot more from Elite.

Right on Commander!

It may be "realistic", but by jove it's boring... Some people get their jollies from griefing other people till they rage quit. Personally they are a waste of my time. I wish they would go play somewhere else, but I know, that this is exactly why they don't.

Nothing fun in griefing a griefer. Am I right, or am I right?...

Interestingly enough, in another thread there was a request for the equivalent of Firefly's reavers - a group whose behaviour is as close to griefing as you can get. I wonder if the solution to all this would be to find a way of flagging griefers as reaver-equivalents, making them a no-recriminations, kill-on-sight in-game element with the griefer's character slot having iron-man dead-is-dead properties. That way even griefing would have a risk/reward profile, and it couldn't be mitigated by cheap insurance.

Not a bad idea that... Be the griefer and take the heat. I think a lot of the hard core griefers out there would love the challenge to prove their superior combat skills. No?

Fly safe Commanders!

 

[Adept]

If piracy is not a form of griefing then what is it? I can understand smuggling not being a form of griefing but piracy?

It's not griefing because it's not done to collect tears but to gain pirate rep and plunder.

The most successful pirate action I can contemplate is to hoist the skull and crossbones in my cobra, and to have some fat python eject 38 cnisters of valuable stuff for me without me having to fire a shot (and acquire that extra bounty on top of the declaration of piracy one). Then I'll scoop it up and fly to meet the pirate fence I have a good relation with so I'll get a good rate for the loot.

Of that sounds like griefing, I think your definition of if needs work.

 

[Maxeren]

Not just one particular player singling out another for repetitive killing, it could be carried out by a series of apparently unconnected players too.

Yes.. that too.. but its still an issue of the same player get killed over and over again by the same "group" of people or single person..

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

So in PvP does the other player take a faction hit if they are the agressor? Do they become flagged as criminals for attacking a non hostile player in the same faction and draw local police and or military? Do player pirates ask for cargo to be dropped or just kos? Or does their bounty just go up and off they go with little to no repercussion whatsoever?

Yes.

If you shoot anyone who is "clean" for that particular region of space then the aggressor receives a bounty valid in that region of space. Over time their legal status will also change to "wanted" and that's when the local law enforcement comes into play as well as NPC/PC bounty hunters.

If I go on a killing spree in Federation space then the Alliance may actually reward me

For what it's worth - if you scan me (as a pirate) and you learn I have a bounty on my head legally you can shoot me.

Also, if I kill you 2 things happen - irrespective of my status / bounty you have the right to kill me (for free!) and secondly it harms my progression as a pirate. I am not supposed to kill people.

Yes.. that too.. but its still an issue of the same player get killed over and over again by the same "group" of people or single person.. otherwise where is the distinction between piracy and griefing?

Murder is not piracy. Make clear the distinction in your head.

Murder is allowed .. but you suffer the consequences. (Larger bounty hits; attracts the law enforcement quicker and stronger in response)

 

[Thorn Black]

It's not griefing because it's not done to collect tears but to gain pirate rep and plunder.

The most successful pirate action I can contemplate is to hoist the skull and crossbones in my cobra, and to have some fat python eject 38 cnisters of valuable stuff for me without me having to fire a shot (and acquire that extra bounty on top of the declaration of piracy one). Then I'll scoop it up and fly to meet the pirate fence I have a good relation with so I'll get a good rate for the loot.

Of that sounds like griefing, I think your definition of if needs work.

What if You dont want to give me Your cargo and You will die as a result ? Is that griefing ? What if i meet You again and again cos You for example keep coming the same way ? Griefing ? oh noe, persistent griefing.

 

[JeffRyan]

Your thread title is emotionally loaded -1 rep.

FD asked us how to deal with things like harassment; verbal abuse; and so on. These kinds of things shouldn't be tolerated by society today as we're supposed to be more enlightened than that. Sadly there are some people who still drag their knuckles and as such they have to be dealt with. If you ignore the problem, in effect you're saying it's OK to be like that and it's not.

There are already tools being developed for the game - Ignore and Mute.

For the fringe cases where you have persistent people this may not be enough which was why FD asked us what we thought we should do with them. It has nothing to do with being a "nanny" state; nothing to do with babysitting; it has all to do with giving people a reasonable experience of the game as there are going to be a lot of people whose sole objective is to ruin yours and why should we let them ?

• Piracy is not griefing
• Persistent griefers - moved to a griefing "all pilots" group
• Hackers / Cheaters - banned
• Report button for FD to deal with (Like it is now on the forum)

This didn't require a new thread in general.

There is nothing else really to say.

Thanks. It's more about feeling the overall one system after another /is/ adding up to something that to me is ridiculous in that the game as a multiplayer experience is always getting weaker and weaker. Everything is being put in place to discourage player vs player and to protect people who're easily offended.

Too much, I felt I was at my limit with the various group options, ignore function, transponder on and off, now we're discussing policing for whatever slips through the cracks...

This isn't about any one system or pvp vs griefer or whatever, it's more about the general feeling that added up this isn't the game I can be bothered playing in a multiplayer enviroment.

 

[Theaghan Black]

So in PvP does the other player take a faction hit if they are the aggressor? Do they become flagged as criminals for attacking a non hostile player in the same faction and draw local police and or military? Do player pirates ask for cargo to be dropped or just kos? Or does their bounty just go up and off they go with little to no repercussion whatsoever?

http://forums.frontier.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=36

Piracy
Increased by: acquiring and using or selling booty obtained through a declaration of piracy (an explicit player option)
Decreased by: destroying a ship without first giving the opportunity to surrender by not declaring piracy.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Yes.. that too.. but its still an issue of the same player get killed over and over again by the same "group" of people or single person.. but then i ask, where is the distinction between piracy and griefing then?

Pirates should be content to demand cargo with menaces - that's what advances their reputation - ship destruction is not piracy in this context, it's murder (although calling it murder is a bit disingenuous as the escape pod will automatically take you back to the relevant station to collect your shiny new ship from the insurance payout - if you can afford it....).

 

[Cosmos]

So we're discussing how we handle cheating and bad behavior in the DDF and it's becoming clear to me that EVE Online is dominating the development of the social side of ED.

Step by step, each of the measures being taken (grouping mechanisms, ignore feature, the on/off PC-NPC transmitter and now the almost universal outcry for policing of bad behavior I'm seeing dominating the DDF discussion) is reasonable and logical. But as a whole it's taking the 'Dangerous' out of Elite Dangerous.

It seems the playerbase wants every possible contingency of having to deal with people they find disagreeable dealt with.

I think this might be a problem with our society in general, we try to protect ourselves and our children too much from hurtful situations that they end up far too sheltered.

Ironically I totally disagree with griefing, I'm a fervant anti-griefer on EVE and I believe that people should strive to be decent human beings all of the time and apologise for it when they fail.

But this continual step by step layer of protection after layer of protection surrounding Elite Dangerous's systems and playerbase just seems ridiculous

This DDF topic is far from over and if policing is instituted I don't necessarily disagree with it, but that isn't the point...

Each step in and of itself isn't necessarily wrong, people decry the British Nanny State, yet that seems to be what we're wanting from Elite 'Dangerous' and Frontier.

Protect us from the bad people out there!

PS. This /isn't/ an attack or a sideswipe at the current DDF proposal either, although I've argued against policing bad behavior I'm not actually that bothered, it's more a problem I have with the mindset I'm seeing dominate as a sociological reaction.

For the record I have to agree. It seems just as one measure is offered more are then sought and in the never ending, 'ah yeah but what about this scenario', we'll soon have a game ending up as some kind of moral crusade where all we do is shower each other with false compliments, all so people don't have their 'feelings' hurt.

I don't dig griefing either but EvE seems to have harmed a lot of people and ironically the overreaction is pushing the direction of ED towards just as much an extreme as EvE was but in the opposite direction.

As I see it there is no Dangerous in the game. The scene out of Robocop where they take input from the community and turn him into a wet lettuce comes to mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdMk3gECIVA

 

[jabokai]

What if You dont want to give me Your cargo and You will die as a result ? Is that griefing ?

No... it's piracy gone to the end game.

What if i meet You again and again cos You for example keep coming the same way ? Griefing ?

Then you're an idiot for going the same way... again and again. Go another way (or switch to a private/solo group if you want to game the system.)

 

[Maxeren]

Pirates should be content to demand cargo with menaces - that's what advances their reputation - ship destruction is not piracy in this context, it's murder (although calling it murder is a bit disingenuous as the escape pod will automatically take you back to the relevant station to collect your shiny new ship from the insurance payout - if you can afford it....).

But murder is ok then (in an immersive gamy sort of way), because it was an act of piracy and the pirate was living out his role to "give cargo or die!"?

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Thanks. It's more about feeling the overall one system after another /is/ adding up to something that to me is ridiculous in that the game as a multiplayer experience is always getting weaker and weaker. Everything is being put in place to discourage player vs player and to protect people who're easily offended.

The security principle is "defence in layers" - There's also the pragmatic approach in that too much security hampers productivity. Then finally there's the "common man" principle here to avoid being sued for inaction.

Same deal here in ED.

• There are in-game rules to deal with positive and negative actions
• There will be a code of conduct. (EULA)
• There will be punishments for those that break the EULA

That's all there really is to it.

My honest opinion here .. it's not as bad as you think.

 

[Phaedra]

It's not griefing because it's not done to collect tears but to gain pirate rep and plunder.

The most successful pirate action I can contemplate is to hoist the skull and crossbones in my cobra, and to have some fat python eject 38 cnisters of valuable stuff for me without me having to fire a shot (and acquire that extra bounty on top of the declaration of piracy one). Then I'll scoop it up and fly to meet the pirate fence I have a good relation with so I'll get a good rate for the loot.

Of that sounds like griefing, I think your definition of if needs work.

Exactly. FD have made a decent effort to separate piracy as a "legitimate" play style from griefing. The same mechanics should also deal with those worried that persistent piracy will be viewed as griefing. As long as you've followed the rules and made a "Declaration of Piracy" you can't be considered as griefing.

 

[Theaghan Black]

What if You dont want to give me Your cargo and You will die as a result ? Is that griefing ? What if i meet You again and again cos You for example keep coming the same way ? Griefing ? oh noe, persistent griefing.

It's not griefing since you want my cargo... you will gain an in-game profit (cargo + reputation), while murderers are not gaining anything.