If you feel like FD has yanked the fun out from under you since 2.1, here are some suggestions
- Thread starter lomac
- Start date
This 100%. The actual combat ability of the AI is utterly miserable. You want to know how to beat it? 0 pips to sys, 4 pips to eng, 2 pips to wep and FA off boost circle strafe. Congratulations you win. The real difficulty with the game is not the AI, it's the incredibly stacked odds and sometimes flat out unwinnable situations the game puts players, and ONLY players in.
But we didn't: We got very complacent. Almost every death I suffered after 2.1 was due to me being cocky, not paying attention, not treating combat as risky enough, or reading a book.
Faced with being shocked out of that complacency, some people don't handle self-criticism very well. Every pilot who had a rude awakening has mentally answered this question:
"I was Elite before, now I die constantly: Ergo the computer is outright cheating cheating"
"I was Elite before, now I die constantly: Ergo this game is too hard and no fun"
"I was Elite before, now I die constantly: Ergo I must be a lot less skilled than I thought and I need to kick my ego to the kerb, get back into a Sidewinder, admit that it was a turkey-shoot, and learn how to fly, because I am still clearly a n00b, even after 6 months of playing!"
Option 'C' is not an answer we like to tell ourselves. It defies the ego, and a whole slew of perception biases.
It'd been interesting watching, psychologically!
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I must say I agree with a lot of that. I probably don't like to have that forced down my throat any more than the Fdevs are enjoying the complaints about the hard work they put into 2.1.
Rules like having NPCs scale against your rank could have been in-game from the start. Someone changed their mind & decided 'the game they want to make' is different from the one originally conceived.
The NPCs clearly cheat.
They can spawn into supercruise behind you and immediately begin interdiction, announcing that they have been looking for you. Players are not able to hide in space while being able to detect ships in supercruise.
They can close gaps of hundreds of LS immediately, even if they are not in supercruise. For example, once an NPC announces they are after you, you can drop SC and pull them in with you. If you enter SC again and then enter a SS, the NPC will spawn in with you, even if they never reentered SC.
These two symptoms are part of a serious problem that has always dogged Elite, but now with the improved loadouts on NPC ships, this problem is front and centre. The problem is that all NPC interaction revolves around the player. They are created exclusively by the player's appearance, and interact with one another purely for the player to act as witness. Because of this, rules must be bent in the game to give the (poor) illusion of a persistent universe, and the examples above come into play.
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A couple things I'd like to add:
If you're in a ship that naturally has weak shields for its size (ie any Fed ship), make sure to use HRPs in your combat loadout. A stock FAS has 540HP, a FAS loaded with HRPs can have a little over 2000HP and about 10%-ish damage reduction while still having room for a fuel scoop and class 5 shield. You'll have to keep an eye on your modules though, in a hull-tank ship those will always go long before your HP does. You can use the surplus HP for ramming, which is helped by the fact that ramming damage is influenced by your weight (heavier ships inflict more ramming damage and receive less).
Regarding SCBs: I'm not sure what causes it, but every now and then there will be an NPC that continuously fires SCBs throughout the fight. It usually happens to Cutters or Pythons, most other NPC ships either don't use SCBs or use them sparingly (ie with enough time to dissipate their heat). When this happens the SCB animation on their ship literally never stops, so you only ever have a 5 second window (the SCB's warm-up time) to drop their shields. I'm pretty sure it's a bug, because under normal circumstances that kind of use would quickly fry the ship and/or run out of SCB ammo. It can be countered by ramming if you're heavy and tanky enough, otherwise if you see it happening just run away, wake out, and make a bug report. Hopefully it will be resolved soon, if we (or FD) can figure out what causes it.
If you're in a ship that naturally has weak shields for its size (ie any Fed ship), make sure to use HRPs in your combat loadout. A stock FAS has 540HP, a FAS loaded with HRPs can have a little over 2000HP and about 10%-ish damage reduction while still having room for a fuel scoop and class 5 shield. You'll have to keep an eye on your modules though, in a hull-tank ship those will always go long before your HP does. You can use the surplus HP for ramming, which is helped by the fact that ramming damage is influenced by your weight (heavier ships inflict more ramming damage and receive less).
Regarding SCBs: I'm not sure what causes it, but every now and then there will be an NPC that continuously fires SCBs throughout the fight. It usually happens to Cutters or Pythons, most other NPC ships either don't use SCBs or use them sparingly (ie with enough time to dissipate their heat). When this happens the SCB animation on their ship literally never stops, so you only ever have a 5 second window (the SCB's warm-up time) to drop their shields. I'm pretty sure it's a bug, because under normal circumstances that kind of use would quickly fry the ship and/or run out of SCB ammo. It can be countered by ramming if you're heavy and tanky enough, otherwise if you see it happening just run away, wake out, and make a bug report. Hopefully it will be resolved soon, if we (or FD) can figure out what causes it.
Mbar, consider just putting in a support ticket to have your combat rank reset to whatever the lowest is. This will make all the pew pew trivial, and allow you to keep playing the parts of the game you enjoy(trading, exploration, etc.) Your pew pew rank will advance but not exceed what you can comfortable play I think. The problem now is that many folks are way past what they should be ranked since the AI "leveled up" in 2.1.
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Yes I agree, that's why we have one of the last options in the giant wall of text: Put in a support ticket to have your combat rank reduced. This will basically reset the game to the way it was for most people, and they won't rank up past AIs that they can't beat. They also won't have to face engineer modded NPC ships because only Deadly and Elite ranked NPCs get engineer mods now.
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Good point about the HRP I didn't think about using it offensively. I just figured I'd die from module damage long before the hull is gone so I stopped using them (also the hit to jump range). I'll put a note in the original post about those, in the section about "they destroy me as soon as my shields are down".
Re: SCBs, if you look in my Elite Python video you see that 5 times he does that, it sure looks like they're infinite/bugged but I do manage to beat him.
While the OP put a lot of effort into their post and deserve kudos for that, telling people how to adapt around bugs and broken mechanics isn't the best long-term approach. It would be like me writing up a guide on how to work around and with the existence of Dark Zone hackers in The Division, rather than recognising the hacking behavior as complete bullchips and looking to get it fixed. You also lose a lot more when you die to the nonsense in ED than you do in The Division.
The fact that we've had (and in some cases still seem to have) NPC's with super-weapons, super-maneuverability, impossible jump and interdiction mechanics and borked difficulty tables shouldn't be seen as things requiring adaptation unless you are heavily into self-punishment and have a ton of credits in the bank, and even then just no.
Juicer, I totally understand what you're saying, and that is the perception at first, but really they don't cheat in all the ways you've mentioned. I kind of broke down what they do to seem like they cheat, and how you can "cheat" right back at them (e.g. use SCB+heatsinks to appear to have infinite shields, use FA off+boost to outturn them).
Engineer modded gear, only Deadly and Elite NPCs get those.
The simple fix for all of the above, if you prefer not to have to "git gud" is to put in a support ticket and ask FD to reset your combat rank. This will make the combat trivial again, and allow you to rank up agains the new tougher AI, which will set the game difficulty level appropriately for your play style. If you choose not to adapt, you won't progress in rank and so you won't have to face NPCs with engineer modded ships etc. It's a reasonable approach IMO to kind of get back to where you were before, and allows you to enjoy a lighter version of combat while still allowing more challenge for those who retain their combat rank and modify their play styles.
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I get what you're trying to say, but if you literally do what you said there in any of the videos I posted, you wouldn't win. I could be wrong, post a video of a similar scenario vs Deadly or Elite NPCs and just 0/4/2 and FA off non-stop boost and see how it works out. Even if you could win that way, would you want to, or would you rather win decisively and quickly.
What are some of those impossible / unwinnable situations you feel the game puts us in? Maybe someone can provide some insight into how to address them? Maybe we've run into them as well and have figured something out?
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Yup, some hard lessons learned since 2.1 dropped and this one was driven home early and repeatedly. You can't simply play tourist anymore and stare at all the sights, pretty or not. Pay attention, arm yourself properly equip your ship to defensively handle a reasonable level of trouble or you will be sorry. Don't carry engineers cargo or any cargo unless you are going to a market or you will be interdicted.
If your in a USS or on the surface expect company...
You don't have to be a combat pilot or run a combat ship but if you don't prepare for trouble it will be trouble when it finds you. That was WHEN not IF...
+ rep for a very positive post - really good to see. Now I have to go back and read it properly [noob]
You switch your axis of movement with each boost. You roll 90 degrees, causing most fixed weapons to miss leaving you with having to tank turrets, which you can defeat with chaff or avoid the side of the ship they are mounted on. Occasionally the NPCs will reverse thrust, which requires you to reset the strafing motions by boosting passed them. Once they are locked in though, the AI is too dim whitted to realise it will lose eventually. Occasionally they won't even shoot back, this seems to happen when they have a PAC that they can't get a firing solution with, and they won't open fire with any other weapon until they can shoot the PAC.
As for why you would want to fight that way - you lose less shields than if you were to sling 4 pips to sys and try to actually tank. Since I have rarely been able to out turn a dangerous or above npc and get behind them, as they all FA off perfectly, I find it better to stay in their firing arc but to continuously dodge attacks. You are also better able to weather multiple attackers (but you may still die!), as they won't be able to sit behind and shoot while you get into a tight turning war.
isn't there a difficulty scale somehow?
for bh you can choose nav beacon, low res, haz res, compromised beacons
for pure combat you have lo and high intensity
uss vary in difficulty and have now a danger indicator visible in sc
missions come with varying risks depending on task, stacking and own status/reputation
and you can spice up any of the above doing it in open, or tone it down in solo.
that's plenty of choice, imo.
lomac, excellent OP.
As someone who has recently returned after almost a year of not playing, it's excellent to see someone making a big post full of useful advice!
The impact of a years worth of rust plus the AI being much improved was quite a shock and initial forum searches did not bode well.
As someone who has recently returned after almost a year of not playing, it's excellent to see someone making a big post full of useful advice!
The impact of a years worth of rust plus the AI being much improved was quite a shock and initial forum searches did not bode well.
The signal to noise ratio here would be much improved if more people thought this way.
I always find it strange that people are so adamant you have to utilize FA-off to be able to compete. I've been playing since the original Beta (2 to be exact) and have barely used FA off. Even with the "crazy" 2.1 AI, I wasn't having any problems whether it be my Anaconda or my FDL in terms of being able to outmaneuver and/or out-position opponents. Verticle and lateral thrusters work wonders for being able to position myself where I want to be. Last I checked, about 99% of all my 500 mil worth of assets is from combat and combat related CGs, plus I'm about 10% away from Elite rank and still I've never had to resort to FA-off (okay, I lie - 1 time in Horizons beta with a Cutter). I use it as more of an "option" than a requirement.
Anyways, back on topic. OP wrote a good guide. +1 REP.
Anyways, back on topic. OP wrote a good guide. +1 REP.
You know what was easier and a lot more fun? Not playing the game. It's been a great month or so of actually having fun while playing other games.
sad that i cant play a game i had fun with in 2.0 and had no fun since 2.1.
npcs dont cheat? well then how come i get multiple over my level (not RANDOM level) npcs when i have anything in the hold, all interdicting me everywhere i go? why is it that nothing i do can win the interdiction game - if it doesnt end before i can react with a random result either back in SC or tumbling end over end with damage. keeping the escape vector centred does nothing. blue doesnt rise. then suddenly the blue randomly goes down and the red spikes - with the escape vector dead in my sights! and even if i throttle down to submit it still decides to FSD fail anyways sometimes. then you are screwed by an npc. boost behind them i was told. great idea let them tear my shields down and into my hull at point blank range - if they dont aim at me and ram me.
i dont have infinite credits like the pew pews who got the 'challenge' they wanted. the game is now a combat game, not a sandbox. combat ship and die anyways, but thats ok if you have those billions. no fun for thos of us with only 4 rebuys left and no combat ship without selling the Asp Ex we worked hard to earn without farming old res. no exploring, no mining, no trading. if you are a player its combat and die. not or, AND. you will have combats and will lose them if you have anything in hold because the damn npc is at least two levels over you in a fighter not a ship with cargo capacity. viper, vulture, imperial something and dead. the npcs cheat big time. the game cheats because it has disabled the interdiction escape game, so dont bother trying you MUST ALWAYS submit and then you are most likely dead. if not now then in 30 seconds when you get interdicted again.
this galaxy is now only believable visually. the situation now would result in humanity being cut off from each other because there is no trade. you would need naval ships escorting convoys like off somalia. thats the situation we are in, there are too many npcs of too high level interdicting people and even if they fix that, eventually your combat rating will jump to where you are back in a no win no fun situation. its no fun trying to run when the escape game is broken. its no fun period trying to run from all combat.
i loved this game. i was looking forward to 2.1. i didnt think better AI would be any harm, maybe would be more fun. but i have stopped playing because it isnt. EA just messed up on battlefront offline too so thats two games totally screwed and made unfun by the developers just for different reasons. the situation now with the stupid generating of levels of interdicters and the accumulation method of calculating player combat rank - and the dumb design decision to base your interdictors combat rank off of other than combat ranks WHICH HAVE NO RELEVANCE TO HOW GOOD YOU ARE IN COMBAT, have combined to kill the fun. FD, drop the pretense. remove the commodities market, trading is pointless except for the billionaires who have money to burn on rebuys. mining is a death sentence. exploring is pointless since you have no way to survive coming back to sell data once within 500ly of the bubble because a random npc WILL kill you somewhere either there or once in the bubble. just keep missions drop the different weapons and just have a single combat version of each combat ship for sale, or if you do missions for the superpowers, given to you on promotion. and call it elite combat simulator.
its not a do what you want universe now, its a do what you want and die unless you are an ace combat pilot in a fully kitted out combat ship.
npcs dont cheat? well then how come i get multiple over my level (not RANDOM level) npcs when i have anything in the hold, all interdicting me everywhere i go? why is it that nothing i do can win the interdiction game - if it doesnt end before i can react with a random result either back in SC or tumbling end over end with damage. keeping the escape vector centred does nothing. blue doesnt rise. then suddenly the blue randomly goes down and the red spikes - with the escape vector dead in my sights! and even if i throttle down to submit it still decides to FSD fail anyways sometimes. then you are screwed by an npc. boost behind them i was told. great idea let them tear my shields down and into my hull at point blank range - if they dont aim at me and ram me.
i dont have infinite credits like the pew pews who got the 'challenge' they wanted. the game is now a combat game, not a sandbox. combat ship and die anyways, but thats ok if you have those billions. no fun for thos of us with only 4 rebuys left and no combat ship without selling the Asp Ex we worked hard to earn without farming old res. no exploring, no mining, no trading. if you are a player its combat and die. not or, AND. you will have combats and will lose them if you have anything in hold because the damn npc is at least two levels over you in a fighter not a ship with cargo capacity. viper, vulture, imperial something and dead. the npcs cheat big time. the game cheats because it has disabled the interdiction escape game, so dont bother trying you MUST ALWAYS submit and then you are most likely dead. if not now then in 30 seconds when you get interdicted again.
this galaxy is now only believable visually. the situation now would result in humanity being cut off from each other because there is no trade. you would need naval ships escorting convoys like off somalia. thats the situation we are in, there are too many npcs of too high level interdicting people and even if they fix that, eventually your combat rating will jump to where you are back in a no win no fun situation. its no fun trying to run when the escape game is broken. its no fun period trying to run from all combat.
i loved this game. i was looking forward to 2.1. i didnt think better AI would be any harm, maybe would be more fun. but i have stopped playing because it isnt. EA just messed up on battlefront offline too so thats two games totally screwed and made unfun by the developers just for different reasons. the situation now with the stupid generating of levels of interdicters and the accumulation method of calculating player combat rank - and the dumb design decision to base your interdictors combat rank off of other than combat ranks WHICH HAVE NO RELEVANCE TO HOW GOOD YOU ARE IN COMBAT, have combined to kill the fun. FD, drop the pretense. remove the commodities market, trading is pointless except for the billionaires who have money to burn on rebuys. mining is a death sentence. exploring is pointless since you have no way to survive coming back to sell data once within 500ly of the bubble because a random npc WILL kill you somewhere either there or once in the bubble. just keep missions drop the different weapons and just have a single combat version of each combat ship for sale, or if you do missions for the superpowers, given to you on promotion. and call it elite combat simulator.
its not a do what you want universe now, its a do what you want and die unless you are an ace combat pilot in a fully kitted out combat ship.
Thanks for posting more details. I'll give that a shot. May be too tiring to do on a regular basis but definitely worth trying