Raising ththe roof for everything is stupid game design.
Discuss the heat meta changes
- Thread starter Crimson Kaim
- Start date
Raising ththe roof for everything is stupid game design.
I dont understand why you guys have to introduce a META in game at all cost.... Of course every Pro player will do that and not another special effects.
Also talking about Heat sinks why so few shell? Little fighter with only 1 Utility slot are screwd this way.....
Game will be more balanced without so much heat, and would more fun to play for sure.
No player is introducing a meta. This wording can be changed to "most effective" if it would make you feel better. Right now, people simply evaluate what is better, and once they figure it out, that becomes the new "meta." My argument is simply for defensive measures to mitigate specific "best of" builds such as the heat overload we've been seeing.
If there were several "best of" builds, and ways to counter said modification builds, then you would see more "meta" variants and allow for more varied gameplay. One thing that needs to be fixed is the shield breaker torps. They don't move fast enough currently to be effective threats. Therefore, people were free to simply mod the stuffing out of their shields, effectively rendering themselves unbeatable except via heat weapons. If heat weapons are overly nerfed, without a counter method to dealing with giant, high resist shields, then you will quickly see those shields as the next bullet point on the "ire of the masses" list.
I guess mainly because that's exactly how insane power creep cycles begin. As others have said this isn't 'nerfing' as such anyway, it's rebalancing a mechanic that has been out of whack with the rest of the game since the day it was introduced.
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There are several times the META or Most Effective (as another posted pointed out) has been undiscovered until tested. Silent Running, for instance, was not considered the Most Effective until long after it had been discovered.
Heat is the thing everyone is shouting about right now. I personally encourage people to test out other builds, i don't think that heat is the Most Effective, i believe there are other builds out there that can combat it, but have not been thought or built up yet.
Has anyone done any testing yet?
This crap pretty much killed pvp for me, so I'm curious to see if the nerf actually did anything.
edit: with the way heat works in this game, there's no way thermal shock/cascade can exist without being broken. awhile back someone described it perfectly: while below 100% heat its underpowered, while above 100% heat is overpowered. The only way for this weapon to work is if they just redesigned heat and module damage. by the time you start to take hull damage from heat, your modules are fried. heatsinks? yeah, they're the first to go. making thermal resistance combat heat might be a decent option, but then everyone would run overcharged multis. yay.
edit: did testing. its still dumb. 1v1 is better, but it doesn't matter when youre up against a wing, youre still gonna cook and lose modules. yay. the hull damage wasn't the issue, it was the module damage.
This crap pretty much killed pvp for me, so I'm curious to see if the nerf actually did anything.
edit: with the way heat works in this game, there's no way thermal shock/cascade can exist without being broken. awhile back someone described it perfectly: while below 100% heat its underpowered, while above 100% heat is overpowered. The only way for this weapon to work is if they just redesigned heat and module damage. by the time you start to take hull damage from heat, your modules are fried. heatsinks? yeah, they're the first to go. making thermal resistance combat heat might be a decent option, but then everyone would run overcharged multis. yay.
edit: did testing. its still dumb. 1v1 is better, but it doesn't matter when youre up against a wing, youre still gonna cook and lose modules. yay. the hull damage wasn't the issue, it was the module damage.
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Heat management seems to be the flavor of the week so I'll re-post this for feedback.
I'm genuinely interested in seeing more testing done because I hear lots of complaining and opinions without testing or evidence.
I don't think either of these cases do well at supporting the claim that specific counters to heat weapons get wrecked or don't exist.
A Tale of Two FDLs: Heat vs No-Heat (CMDR Tawittle)
https://youtu.be/Eq-FYDtHSgc
- The tail of two FDLs doesn't say Palazo was low emission. Neither did the other FDL have heat sinks, or a thermal vent or thermal conduit weapon; hardly what I would consider a build designed to counter heat buildup.
Test duel - Thermal shock/Cascade Cutter vs. Incendiary Rounds/Low Emissions PP Conda (Olivka :з)
https://youtu.be/RU-VQPo_8Lc
- The cutter vs conda shows how heat weapons are OP. So OP in fact that it takes 4 minutes of continual damage to finally drop the opponent's shields and call the fight; 3 minutes when Zeroskill admits to messing up at the start; 6 minutes to call the fight, 6 minutes to call the fight. /s. Yes, I see Zero's modules getting fried, but that long of a fight is plenty of time to high wake out.
Here's three videos showing thermal vent PVE in action. The ship heat goes __*down*__ during continuous firing.
Elite
angerous. Imperial Courier Shield Tank Build with Beam and 2 Multi-cannons (Kornelius Briedis)
- https://youtu.be/2lm3nZd2BC0
Vulture Thermal Vent Beam and Corrosive Shell Multi-Cannon combo (Kornelius Briedis)
- https://youtu.be/GvcK0LwBmC4
Elite Dangerous 2.1 Beta 4 - The Power of Thermal Vent Beams (CMDR Voeckler)
- https://youtu.be/HpeHMR0h3Zs
In any case, none of the videos I've seen linked shows a ship built to counter heat weapons. Such a ship migh be an FDL with
- Thermal vent huge beam laser
- 2x Thermal vent medium beam lasers
- 2x efficient medium multicannons with thermal shock
- Thermal resistant: armor, hull reinforcement package, shield booster, shield generator, shield booster
- Low emissions power plant
- Clean drive tuning
- Heat sinks
Throw down an FDL with all heat weapons against an FDL designed to defeat heat weapons with the videos shown in parallel and that would drive a nail in the coffin on heat weapons beyond any reasonable doubt.
I'm genuinely interested in seeing more testing done because I hear lots of complaining and opinions without testing or evidence.
I don't think either of these cases do well at supporting the claim that specific counters to heat weapons get wrecked or don't exist.
A Tale of Two FDLs: Heat vs No-Heat (CMDR Tawittle)
https://youtu.be/Eq-FYDtHSgc
- The tail of two FDLs doesn't say Palazo was low emission. Neither did the other FDL have heat sinks, or a thermal vent or thermal conduit weapon; hardly what I would consider a build designed to counter heat buildup.
Test duel - Thermal shock/Cascade Cutter vs. Incendiary Rounds/Low Emissions PP Conda (Olivka :з)
https://youtu.be/RU-VQPo_8Lc
- The cutter vs conda shows how heat weapons are OP. So OP in fact that it takes 4 minutes of continual damage to finally drop the opponent's shields and call the fight; 3 minutes when Zeroskill admits to messing up at the start; 6 minutes to call the fight, 6 minutes to call the fight. /s. Yes, I see Zero's modules getting fried, but that long of a fight is plenty of time to high wake out.
Here's three videos showing thermal vent PVE in action. The ship heat goes __*down*__ during continuous firing.
Elite
angerous. Imperial Courier Shield Tank Build with Beam and 2 Multi-cannons (Kornelius Briedis)- https://youtu.be/2lm3nZd2BC0
Vulture Thermal Vent Beam and Corrosive Shell Multi-Cannon combo (Kornelius Briedis)
- https://youtu.be/GvcK0LwBmC4
Elite Dangerous 2.1 Beta 4 - The Power of Thermal Vent Beams (CMDR Voeckler)
- https://youtu.be/HpeHMR0h3Zs
In any case, none of the videos I've seen linked shows a ship built to counter heat weapons. Such a ship migh be an FDL with
- Thermal vent huge beam laser
- 2x Thermal vent medium beam lasers
- 2x efficient medium multicannons with thermal shock
- Thermal resistant: armor, hull reinforcement package, shield booster, shield generator, shield booster
- Low emissions power plant
- Clean drive tuning
- Heat sinks
Throw down an FDL with all heat weapons against an FDL designed to defeat heat weapons with the videos shown in parallel and that would drive a nail in the coffin on heat weapons beyond any reasonable doubt.
Sandro,
after a few quick tests yesterday I would say the patch does not make a significant difference to the heat effects.
I, as most of our clan ( Blood Brothers from Alrai ), really enjoyed PvP. The engineer update and the introduction of the heat effects totally destroyed PvP in my opinion.
These effects totally bypasses every defence and destroys the only module that can make you last a little longer ( heatsinks ) first.
The hull damage never was a big problem it was and is the modul damage.
Here are 3 ideas of some changes to the heateffects that might work:
1. Make the amount of heat delivered not depend on the weapons damage capability rather the damage the victim really suffers.
Resistance and PiPs to SYS modifies the damage taken. If heat generated by weapons fire could be reduced the same way, you would not be that helpless anymore.
2. set the limit you are able to heat up an other ship to 100%.
This way you will not destroy him, but he will be out of the fight soon. He can't boost, can't use shieldcells, or shoot his weapons without overheating.
So the heateffects will take an enemy out of the fight very soon, but will not actively destroy his ship.
3. remove them completely ( i would prefer this, but i know you won't do that )
Atleast make them only work against the hull, as they worked before the engineer update.
after a few quick tests yesterday I would say the patch does not make a significant difference to the heat effects.
I, as most of our clan ( Blood Brothers from Alrai ), really enjoyed PvP. The engineer update and the introduction of the heat effects totally destroyed PvP in my opinion.
These effects totally bypasses every defence and destroys the only module that can make you last a little longer ( heatsinks ) first.
The hull damage never was a big problem it was and is the modul damage.
Here are 3 ideas of some changes to the heateffects that might work:
1. Make the amount of heat delivered not depend on the weapons damage capability rather the damage the victim really suffers.
Resistance and PiPs to SYS modifies the damage taken. If heat generated by weapons fire could be reduced the same way, you would not be that helpless anymore.
2. set the limit you are able to heat up an other ship to 100%.
This way you will not destroy him, but he will be out of the fight soon. He can't boost, can't use shieldcells, or shoot his weapons without overheating.
So the heateffects will take an enemy out of the fight very soon, but will not actively destroy his ship.
3. remove them completely ( i would prefer this, but i know you won't do that )
Atleast make them only work against the hull, as they worked before the engineer update.
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4. During the duration of being udner fire of a thermal shock weapon, increase all generated heat of the affected ship by X% for 1-2 second(s).
Other than that, how did the testings go? What is the result? What is the hard cap? Was it easy to overheat a ship in less than two seconds from 500 meters? Is stackign still a thing?
Tested 3 thermal cascades on a fdl fired 6 salvos and nearly all his essential modules were dead. This nerf has done nothing to address the heat meta stomping everything with no down sides. We need something to counter it, how about heat sinks take no damage from heat??
Heat mechanic is simply stupid, need to be removed.
Even if they implement heat sink shells taken by fuel will be just matter of time. And of when there is a I Win termic weapon everyone will get it.
FD simply is unable to balance this situation....
They are not unable but unwilling. They don't want to screw the therma lstuff because they put work and resourcesi n it. But this is a case of "please kill me". They put resoruces in something negative. It-MUST-go. Sorry but the resources are already wasted. It will either be OP or UP. The more resources put into balancing this simple unbalanced thermal meta the more resources will be wasted. It can not be balanced the way it works now. There must be additional criteria to counter heat or get completely rid of it. But the fact is: the way it is now it will never work. The simplicity itself is the problem. Simplefixes will not do the job. A complex overhaul is required, not a simple decrease in effectiveness. There is no space between OP and UP in this case.
There are 3 issues with the current heat mechanics:
1. Taking heat-damage is very disabling, as almost all actions in the game require you to generate more heat. This wouldn't be a problem on it's own, if you think about this as the purpose of the weapon, but since the weapons are also able to push the target ship to a range where they take crippling module damage very fast, it quickly becomes the obvious weapon choice for PvP.
2. "Countering" Thermal Shock/Cascade requires extensive amounts of utility slots(heat-sinks), not available to all ships, and vulnerable to failure. Weapons that dumb huge amounts of heat in to the target have a tendency to cause cascade failures of low integrity modules like the utilities. This creates a situation where the very modules you need to effectively fight large amounts on incoming heat are the first ones to be knocked out. This is specially true for larger ships that can't maneuver to avoid incoming fire, and are more prone to being focused.
3. Time-to-kill is short, since thermal shock by it's nature is disabling, and since it can knock out the all-important shield boosters and heat-sinks from under the shields, it provides a shortcut to simply blasting trough the entire health-pool of the target ship. Now the amount of health ships have is something that has been increasing trough out the lifetime of the game, and is a different topic for a different time, but the fact is large ships currently in the game have EXTREMELY long times-to-kill under normal conditions. Comparable large ships builds stocked up with boosters and SCB's can have slugging matches that last close to 30 minutes. Against Thermal Shock/Cascade, even if you only primarily carry heat-sinks, you are unlikely to last longer than 5-7 minutes.
As long as Thermal Shock/Cascade weapons can reliably push a ship in to the temperature range where they take module damage, it's going to remain incredibly powerful. I think having a second look at what the purpose of the special effect in the first place is would be in order. If the purpose of the weapon is to simply be a kind of "soft disable" meant to hamper the use of heat intense modules? Or is it meant to be a tool to by-pass large amounts of shields on extremely tanky builds? If it's the first one, having the weapons simply push the heat towards 100% to make heat management difficult may be more reasonable. If the purpose is the latter, having a look at the way it tends to disable the ship might be in order, and checking the total time it takes to cause unrecoverable damage.
1. Taking heat-damage is very disabling, as almost all actions in the game require you to generate more heat. This wouldn't be a problem on it's own, if you think about this as the purpose of the weapon, but since the weapons are also able to push the target ship to a range where they take crippling module damage very fast, it quickly becomes the obvious weapon choice for PvP.
2. "Countering" Thermal Shock/Cascade requires extensive amounts of utility slots(heat-sinks), not available to all ships, and vulnerable to failure. Weapons that dumb huge amounts of heat in to the target have a tendency to cause cascade failures of low integrity modules like the utilities. This creates a situation where the very modules you need to effectively fight large amounts on incoming heat are the first ones to be knocked out. This is specially true for larger ships that can't maneuver to avoid incoming fire, and are more prone to being focused.
3. Time-to-kill is short, since thermal shock by it's nature is disabling, and since it can knock out the all-important shield boosters and heat-sinks from under the shields, it provides a shortcut to simply blasting trough the entire health-pool of the target ship. Now the amount of health ships have is something that has been increasing trough out the lifetime of the game, and is a different topic for a different time, but the fact is large ships currently in the game have EXTREMELY long times-to-kill under normal conditions. Comparable large ships builds stocked up with boosters and SCB's can have slugging matches that last close to 30 minutes. Against Thermal Shock/Cascade, even if you only primarily carry heat-sinks, you are unlikely to last longer than 5-7 minutes.
As long as Thermal Shock/Cascade weapons can reliably push a ship in to the temperature range where they take module damage, it's going to remain incredibly powerful. I think having a second look at what the purpose of the special effect in the first place is would be in order. If the purpose of the weapon is to simply be a kind of "soft disable" meant to hamper the use of heat intense modules? Or is it meant to be a tool to by-pass large amounts of shields on extremely tanky builds? If it's the first one, having the weapons simply push the heat towards 100% to make heat management difficult may be more reasonable. If the purpose is the latter, having a look at the way it tends to disable the ship might be in order, and checking the total time it takes to cause unrecoverable damage.
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Hi there bud. Apologies in advance for the inane questions - I know what it's like to develop something and then get queried on every aspect of something I was working on for ages!
So the question: Are we expecting to see any further rebalancing on how thermal buildup affects ship damage?
Currently the thermal weaponry is more or less psychological warfare. People freak out when they see heat build over 100% and sparks start flying, and has totally different outcomes on the CMDRs that keep cool (please pardon the pun) and the ones that turn into a slowly floating brick when you've trained thermal weaponry on them for a few seconds.
What's telling is that the same thermal weaponry on an NPC has been doing pretty much nothing. Four thermal shock weapons and you'd hope they're melting to at least some extent. But in no NPC fight have I ever seen the heat buildup cause a malfunction that affects their flight, and when closing fights a quick module inspection shows as a general rule less than 10% damage per module on larger ships.
So it's pretty evident that even with a full thermal shock loadout it's more about "these weapons are making me freak out too fast" rather than actually being OP - which in all fairness is a valid comment. But given you're editing diminishing returns again in a manner that will ultimately reduce damage, any chance of reviewing this?
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Yes it will be, prob the next month... now they will desappear as always with no post and update leaving the things like they are now....
How about not rocking around in a shield fortess and be tactical in your loadouts if you believe you're going to enter PvP? The heat is just about fine right now.
My Cutter currently has 3 heat sinks, and it runs hot naturally with being g5 dirty drives and g4 overcharged power plant. Those 3 heat sinks are more than sufficient time for me to wreck havoc on the enemy before I need to leave. It's meant to be an equaliser against those with space fortresses.
You need to ensure you have a broad spectrum of defences: heat sinks for PvP (no different to when ppl had SCB ships) and at least one ecm for big ships.
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There are other much better and sophisticated ways to deal with these big and tanky ships.
You can destroy their shieldgenerators, disable their drives, or disrupt their targeting.
Simply cooking everyone with missiles is dull.
Balanced thermal heat weapons to me means increasing the ships thermal load, but not to the point where it can damage modules by itself (regardless of how many heat generating weapons are used). It should only add enough max thermal load to a ship to limit how long it can constantly fire and boost without overheating and causing damage to itself.
If the attacked ship is running a low thermal load build then an attacker only using +heat weapons should have little added advantage because s/he is basically assuming that the other person will be running fairly hot anyway during a fight (before it has even started). If your opponent is running pretty cool in combat then you are plain out of luck, and that is what should happen when you put all your eggs in one basket. Running an extreme build should be about making an assumption about your future opponents, one that has an element of risk.
If the attacked ship is running a low thermal load build then an attacker only using +heat weapons should have little added advantage because s/he is basically assuming that the other person will be running fairly hot anyway during a fight (before it has even started). If your opponent is running pretty cool in combat then you are plain out of luck, and that is what should happen when you put all your eggs in one basket. Running an extreme build should be about making an assumption about your future opponents, one that has an element of risk.