2.2's Instant Ship and Module Transport - Yay or Nay?
- Thread starter Kintch
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FD starting a discussion?
They have all our email addresses - there are things called surveys, and done by email.
Pretty easy to do this I would have thought. Framing the survey / poll and deciding on the results is probably not easy.
But why they do not do this is beyond me especially for contentious decisions such as 'instant transfer'.
But FD are creating ED on how they want to play ED not us existing players. IIRC David Braben said they wanted to create a game they would like to play themselves - it seems they're doing just that.
I still live in hope.
Actually, I would prefer that we instantly teleport to where our ship is, rather then the ship teleport to us. That way, a player could have one ship out exploring, and one in the bubble and choose which one to fly, instead of needing two accounts.
Don't worry that will be the next "feature".
I just wanted to say that, given the numbers we saw in the stream, one can try to estimate what kind of formula FD was using for computing the costs of ship transfer.
* It seems very clear that the price is proportional to the price of the ship (taken from coriolis.io for basic layouts).
* How the variation with distance is used is more complicated to estimate, since there are not many data points. But it seems clear that the price grows *stronger than linearly* with distance.
Even assuming linear growth with distance, which underestimates the price for transfer in the long run, a good fit (mostly for d = 184 ly) is
price for transfer = price of ship * distance * 0.000195567
If this were true (and we know that all of this is subject to change until October, or even in beta), then as soon as the transfer distance exceeds about 5113 ly, it is cheaper to buy the ship completely anew, rather than transferring it. To transfer a fully equipped Cutter to Jacques would cost vastly in excess of a billion credits.
So instant transfer over long distances, or even to Jacques, I believe, is a non-problem.
Cheers, CMDR Heisenberg6626
P.S.: Seems like the price for the Beluga Liner, calculated from the numbers of the stream, would be about 75 million credits. Seems reasonable, I feel.
* It seems very clear that the price is proportional to the price of the ship (taken from coriolis.io for basic layouts).
* How the variation with distance is used is more complicated to estimate, since there are not many data points. But it seems clear that the price grows *stronger than linearly* with distance.
Even assuming linear growth with distance, which underestimates the price for transfer in the long run, a good fit (mostly for d = 184 ly) is
price for transfer = price of ship * distance * 0.000195567
If this were true (and we know that all of this is subject to change until October, or even in beta), then as soon as the transfer distance exceeds about 5113 ly, it is cheaper to buy the ship completely anew, rather than transferring it. To transfer a fully equipped Cutter to Jacques would cost vastly in excess of a billion credits.
So instant transfer over long distances, or even to Jacques, I believe, is a non-problem.
Cheers, CMDR Heisenberg6626
P.S.: Seems like the price for the Beluga Liner, calculated from the numbers of the stream, would be about 75 million credits. Seems reasonable, I feel.
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One more nail in the Space Skyscraper of win, you mean?
Yes ship transfer, no to instant transfer. It changes the way we outfit our ships. Why would I ever bother putting a fuel scoop on my Vulture if I can just fly somewhere in something with a larger jump range and then instantly get my Vulture. I think putting a delay is required.
This would be nonsense too, but still better nonsense
Thx for the math
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Let's take a step back and look...
Unfortunately this thread has started going in circles, so let's take a step back and look at the pros and cons of instant vs. delayed transfer of ships and modules:
Instant transfer.
Delayed transport (timed).
Pros.
* Gives a sense of distance in the game.
* Requires that the player thinks strategically, does (s)he really want to initiate the transfer now or later? Does (s)he want to hang around this system that long?
* Ship hoarders with lots of money can relocate their whole fleets and re-equip within a couple of hours.
Cons.
* Can't have everything you want *NOW*.
* Allows ships which would otherwise not be able to reach a location to be transported there.
* Takes a great deal of server side programming and resources determining, setting and triggering timing actions as doing it in the client is infeasible and prone to hacking.
Delayed transport (next day delivery)
Pros.
* Gives a sense of distance in the game.
* Requires that the player thinks strategically, does (s)he really want to initiate the transfer now or later? Does (s)he want to hang around this system that long?
Cons.
* Can't have everything you want *NOW*.
* Takes a some server-side programming, setting up delivery request lists and then actioning them as part of each Galaxy "tick" but simple and not-real time.
* Allows ships which would otherwise not be able to reach a location to be transported there.
* Ship hoarders with lots of money can relocate their whole fleets and re-equip within a day.
As you can see with all of them the biggest issue with ship transfer is that it allows ships to move to locations where they shouldn't be able to get to, e.g. a FDL with tiny jump range, full of heavy weapons and no space for a fuel scoop being transferred to Jaques.
With respect to the delay, if you have it it adds to the strategic thought part of the gameplay but removes the instant ability to change to a situation.
Just a thought, why would you expect to be able to move ships around the whole galaxy faster than Amazon can deliver your goods to you today?
Unfortunately this thread has started going in circles, so let's take a step back and look at the pros and cons of instant vs. delayed transfer of ships and modules:
Instant transfer.
Pros.
* No waiting, you can do whatever you want as soon as you want.
* Simple to implement and can't be cheated.
* No need for server side systems or resources.
Cons.
* Other than for money reasons, no need to think strategically.
* Allows ships which would otherwise not be able to reach a location to be transported there.
* Ship hoarders with lots of money can relocate their whole fleets and re-equip on a whim.
* No waiting, you can do whatever you want as soon as you want.
* Simple to implement and can't be cheated.
* No need for server side systems or resources.
* Other than for money reasons, no need to think strategically.
* Allows ships which would otherwise not be able to reach a location to be transported there.
* Ship hoarders with lots of money can relocate their whole fleets and re-equip on a whim.
Delayed transport (timed).
Pros.
* Gives a sense of distance in the game.
* Requires that the player thinks strategically, does (s)he really want to initiate the transfer now or later? Does (s)he want to hang around this system that long?
* Ship hoarders with lots of money can relocate their whole fleets and re-equip within a couple of hours.
* Can't have everything you want *NOW*.
* Allows ships which would otherwise not be able to reach a location to be transported there.
* Takes a great deal of server side programming and resources determining, setting and triggering timing actions as doing it in the client is infeasible and prone to hacking.
Pros.
* Gives a sense of distance in the game.
* Requires that the player thinks strategically, does (s)he really want to initiate the transfer now or later? Does (s)he want to hang around this system that long?
* Can't have everything you want *NOW*.
* Takes a some server-side programming, setting up delivery request lists and then actioning them as part of each Galaxy "tick" but simple and not-real time.
* Allows ships which would otherwise not be able to reach a location to be transported there.
* Ship hoarders with lots of money can relocate their whole fleets and re-equip within a day.
As you can see with all of them the biggest issue with ship transfer is that it allows ships to move to locations where they shouldn't be able to get to, e.g. a FDL with tiny jump range, full of heavy weapons and no space for a fuel scoop being transferred to Jaques.
With respect to the delay, if you have it it adds to the strategic thought part of the gameplay but removes the instant ability to change to a situation.
Just a thought, why would you expect to be able to move ships around the whole galaxy faster than Amazon can deliver your goods to you today?
I'm a bit confused as to how ship transfer works. Can you instantly transfer any ship, including the one your currently flying, to anywhere, or is it simply a case of you reach your destination (Jacques Station for example) and then can bring another ship you own to you?
If it's the former, then FD have basically added the equivalent of Transwarp beaming to the game and basically negated the need to actually travel.
If it's the latter, then I have no issue with it, because you've had to fly at least one ship to your current destination.
What I don't want to see, and what I think will totally spoil the game and make the galaxy feel too small, is being able to effectively teleport to anywhere in the game whenever you like.
If it's the former, then FD have basically added the equivalent of Transwarp beaming to the game and basically negated the need to actually travel.
If it's the latter, then I have no issue with it, because you've had to fly at least one ship to your current destination.
What I don't want to see, and what I think will totally spoil the game and make the galaxy feel too small, is being able to effectively teleport to anywhere in the game whenever you like.
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Funny[yesnod]
FD starting a discussion?
They have all our email addresses - there are things called surveys, and done by email.
Pretty easy to do this I would have thought. Framing the survey / poll and deciding on the results is probably not easy.
But why they do not do this is beyond me especially for contentious decisions such as 'instant transfer'.
But FD are creating ED on how they want to play ED not us existing players. IIRC David Braben said they wanted to create a game they would like to play themselves - it seems they're doing just that.
I still live in hope.
They don't need to do a survey. They can see by the numbers they monitor in the background whether people like something or not. When it goes live, if the majority of people are using insta-transfer then it was a success for them. If not, they may change it. We forget that they know how many people are playing their game. They know how many hours a day, how often and what the majority of people are doing and they are moving the goal posts in their game to suite what the numbers point to. The purists may not agree with it and I myself often criticize their road map, but I can't argue with the fact that they know what their customers are doing and not doing. DB gave quite a speech about community driven activities. They want more of this. If people aren't taking part or are avoiding it, they will move the goal posts to try and get people to take part in that activity. One thing we never know but they do, is how many people own the game and how many are playing the game. They know how well the Horizons expansion has done or not done. People refer to ED as a niche game. I don't believe they want it to be a niche game. They want sales, and without sales then development will slow down and we may already be seeing this with the delays that are happening. It could be due to changes in direction that are having to be made to try and increase sales and interest in the game. Just a thought.
It's transfer between station ship store locations. i.e. you can request a remotely stored ship to be moved to the station you're currently docked with.
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You missed out sending the ship to your destination rather than bringing it to your location.
Pros
Doesn't break immersion
effectively halves number of journeys required
Cons
require a bit more planning (but actually a pro IMHO)
I voted against ship transfer, but have also ticked that it should take a large amount of time to complete.
It would still take less time as you do not have to fly the return trip yourself.
I have supported module transfer, because getting any upgrades from engineers means you only get the upgrade on the ship you are flying right now. Not always what you want.
I would suggest however that a better mechanic might work like this :-
Maybe just the upgrade could be transferable to another module ( of same type ). You don't keep the module, just the 'widget' that gives it the engineer's enhancement. You can then apply the upgrade to another ship as you need while your 'old' module just reverts to standard performance.
There could even be a size limit so if you have an update for a class 1 module you can't fit it to a class 5 one. Maybe upgrade should work just up/down a few module classes? This would mean you'd have to mindful of the type of ship you wanted the module for, so would make it a bit trickier.
It would still take less time as you do not have to fly the return trip yourself.
I have supported module transfer, because getting any upgrades from engineers means you only get the upgrade on the ship you are flying right now. Not always what you want.
I would suggest however that a better mechanic might work like this :-
Maybe just the upgrade could be transferable to another module ( of same type ). You don't keep the module, just the 'widget' that gives it the engineer's enhancement. You can then apply the upgrade to another ship as you need while your 'old' module just reverts to standard performance.
There could even be a size limit so if you have an update for a class 1 module you can't fit it to a class 5 one. Maybe upgrade should work just up/down a few module classes? This would mean you'd have to mindful of the type of ship you wanted the module for, so would make it a bit trickier.
You cant, because there are no stations all over the galaxy. Anyway, it's a game. If someone was to want a dozen ships at Jacques, that currently would take 150-200 HOURS of staring at a loading screen. To some, that is not 'engaging' or 'tactical' gameplay. For an 'average' player able to play 5 hours a week or so, it would take the better part of a year just looking at loading screens.
"Its not fair you get your corvette here so easily! All you had to do was watch a loading screen for 15 hours and pay the entire cost of the ship again, it should be way more punishing for my immersion."
Not really true
I use the toilet several times a day.
Doesn't mean I like it!
If it's made instant many people annoyed with it will use it because its there, because they feel they have no choice if they want to "compete" (especially applicable in open) etc. Many reasons why people would use it even if they didn't like it. While adding it to their mental list of " ups by the devs" that eventually will become a rage quit rant list. For many it may be the final straw, who knows.
The latter. You can now at a station access all your ships. The further away they are, the more expensive it is. The prices suggested at gamescom suggest its fairly expensive, to the point that sending a Beluga Liner to Jaqcues costs 300 million. So people manually flying it are rewarded 20m/hr more or less, or you can just bypass that and do something else with the new function.
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