2.2's Instant Ship and Module Transport - Yay or Nay?
- Thread starter Kintch
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<Facepalm> And going round again (and again) (and again) In a shared universe people using their ships 'optimally' by teleporting around potentially affects others to a greater degree than all of the other things on your list, which only affect the player (or have very minimal impact on others). We have to accept compromise on the death issue, because to not do so has a far higher penalty, and act as the ultimate barrier to play. Saying, you've "compromised realism here, so you must accept compromise here, or anywhere else as well" (which was the basis of your argument), isn't necessarily a good argument.
Yes, I understand that you feel not having access to all your toys makes the game poorer, and you think I'm sticking my nose into your business by not allowing you access to your toys. I'm saying, you having access to all your toys immediately could cause some major problems, both for you and me, that could fundamentally change the nature of this game we all supposedly like.
PS: Did you really think saying 'Done and done' was going to stop this one?
What is going to stop it is only fatigue, and common sense kicking in to wait to see if Frontier come back with a detailed proposal we can kick around, rather than the GamesCom 'fait accompli'.
My heroes! Should be on the Galnet Entertainment Channel.
Transfer is a service with high added value. Transfer must be used occasionally and advisedly
Agreed, but how do we make sure it is ? I have 4 billion+ : if the only limitation is money, to prevent me from abusing it , it would require such prices that casual players wouldn't be able to afford it. And if they can afford it, then it will be meaningless for me and I'll teleport my ships all over the place. A simple cooldown for this service would be enough to prevent that.
And I won't even go to the balancing headaches : the low jump range was a way to make non combat ships very attractive. With a limitless teleport, this attribute becomes meaningless. Your grade 5 fsd engineered Conda / ASP will merely virtually become your shipyard and you will barely need an fsd drive on your combat ships.
I'm all for ship deliveries, but this tweak or an equivalent seems really necessary to me.
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let me explain that to you:
when you have THOUSAND of hours ... it s normal to be bored after traveling again and again and again and again ...
that s why you can have this sort of idiotic post :
people enter in the routine (they even only stick with one trade route) and forgot what this game was suppose to be.
i love ED for what it is: a realistic picture of space. that s why i search and bought this space sim during beta.
i wanted a SPACE SIM. and made the mistake of not taking part in forum until verry recently. thus i didn t knew the commmunity was that "bad"
for crying out loud : what s the point in generating a 1:1 galaxy ?!
this game is all about travel and feel how vast the galaxy really is. (Because it s a SPACE SIM'.)
sure you may bought the wrong game, or you just can t stand it anymore after thousands of playtime.
BUT
cut this down this and you cut down the main trait of the game.
because newtonian physic ? well other space game do it too like kerbal space program .
-space fight ? well... aren t you saying its grindy to farm the same high/haz res ?
-trade ? well ... arent you saying is grindy to do the same route over and over again?
-powerplay ? its all about territory, but if you can telleport or bring any ship/asset verry quickly then whats the point ?
you can sell ship front distance ? (without the keys ?!) then i guess 2 month after release we will also be abble to buys from any station (the one with -20% [yesnod] and use ship transfert to bring it to us... hmm?! i dont have the alliance permit to go there? well i didn t go there so i don t need to anymore ! [big grin])
then what s next ?
patch 3.2 we will be abble to instant teleport instead of going into "boring supercruise" ?
way to go for a space sim, way to go ...
i m not against ship transfert.
i m just saying its done HORRIBLY wrong.
they should add the possibility of disassemble a ship to fit it into your current ship's cargohold. (vulture have a base mass of 230t? so a cargohold size of 230t cargo is needed) disassembling and reassembling come with a fee depending on the base ship price: a python or FDL will cost more.
BUT
if you dont want to carry it on your own: you can ask for an NPC (who can be part of a transport's company) to do it for you!
It will cost MUCH more (its a luxury service) but you will be free to do whatever you like until you get it and can reduce the price if you increase your reputation with that company, and become a "friend"/VIP of that said company.
With this of course, come the risk of losing your ship if the freighter is attacked by (NPC) pirate during the transport, if that happend, by paying a reduce insurance cost(part of it is paid by the NPC's company), you can try again or forget it and decide to do it yourself.
it bring another advantage:
if you ask to carry a small ship (like a vulture) since it s an "npc's transport company" they will carry it under a fraighter or conda. thus, it will get to your selected destination FASTER. (and you dont have to invent something like: my ship have no security, anyone can "steal" it)
because no matter what: the time for delivery must be REALISTIC.
remmember that elite dangerous, unlike it predecessor, is a multiplayer game (even if i deplore the fact that powerplay isn t deactivate in solomode) thus you simply CAN NOT say: "well use it if you want" "wait after instantly receiving it if you want".
You can t say that for exactly the same reason i can t go into the save file and give me 100 000 000 000CR to avoid the "grind"
Because we are in a space sim,who revolve into "how big and vast space is" this debate is perfect the quivalent of mmo's LFD and LFR !
(and yet because this thread is so popular this post may never be read...wel my english isn t really good so maybe it s for the best, on this day, no eyes may bleed
)
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Using ship transfer to move a ship closer to the action without playing taxi was the reason to implement ship transfers.
But you are suggesting that all trips be made by taxi. That is a perversion of the whole jump range limitation. Now all jump ranges are shifted from a time cost to a money cost. That "impacts me locally" because now the grand scale of the galaxy is reduced to the number of CR in my account.
That cheapens the entire game. And cheapens all the effort I've put into increasing my FDL jump range.
If they want to make it easy to get your combat ship to a CG then they should just boost combat ship jump range. charge them huge fees for fuel. Same result, immersion is saved.
But if I'm forced to fly a Explorer Bus around the bubble, I'm going to quickly resent so many things. Not least of all my trip to Beagle Point, since Frontier is essentially saying that effort to travel is meaningless. Distance is meaningless. Because the scale of the galaxy is a lie.
We're all having a friendly discussion that sometimes exhibits over active Brownian Motion due to the application of instant heat.
Could that heat 'melt our faces off' though?
The transfer of ships is excellent. It is logical that the ship would have an autopilot feature and should be able to be summoned. However, instantaneous transfer is a mistake, it should be based on the ships jump range and distance from the station. Why would you develop a game that centers around being as scientifically accurate as possible and then add a feature that goes against everything you are working for. Part of the fun is managing your ships. Just like OA says now we will see more people traveling in long range ships just moving their fleet of ships around. There is no reason for me to even travel in my combat ship anymore. I used to love finding a new system with a great res site nearby or an area I would want to bounty hunt in and outfitting a ship specifically for that. But now I guess ill just fly around in my ASP looking for those things and just magically summon my ship instantly lol. Immersion broken .
Also, yes I do understand that things can be 3D printed. But if that is the case then the devs should do away with the cargo racks and all missions that require you to physically haul anything whatsoever. Because if my ship can be transferred in this way then im sure any and all cargo that needed to go anywhere can be transferred that way also.
Please add a time delay for gods sake lol
.Also, yes I do understand that things can be 3D printed. But if that is the case then the devs should do away with the cargo racks and all missions that require you to physically haul anything whatsoever. Because if my ship can be transferred in this way then im sure any and all cargo that needed to go anywhere can be transferred that way also.
Please add a time delay for gods sake lol
Mentioned already. Can't be explained reasonably with fiction because of Engineers and shipyard availability.
If you could instantly summon a copy of your ship without any engineers modifications while also taking into account what ships and modules are available at that station, then I'd be very ok with it. I've even proposed in the past ideas like the ability to rent ship "builds" at certain stations, or have them switched between players.
I support the principle of allowing more instant action to the player (the motivation behind instant ship transfer seems to be the idea that players should jump in any type of ship at will and engage in any kind of action). But I don't like the fact that the previously rules of the game world don't make any sense anymore because of it.
PS: Did you really think saying 'Done and done' was going to stop this one?
There is a reason this topic has caught and spread like wildfire; it's a battle for the very heart and soul of what Elite Dangerous is at it's core. No other issue I've seen cross these boards has so aptly put the desires of player "groups" into such stark contrast. This conversation is just getting started, as much as Sandro might not like it.
That's a good point of course! I cant see that happening though, I just thought it would be fun to think of an in-game fiction to support the idea.
After seeing the stream I am assuming that transfers will be instant, as doing it any other would make it impractical for most people and its clear that FDEV want to down a more useability route than a realism one with features like this.
I dont see myself using the transfer system much (if at all) but I can see why so many people wanted it.
I think you can only really go down two routes with this sort of thing, either make it take the full time or instant. I dont think a "fast but not instant" transport option makes any more "realistic" sense than the instant option but is far less practical.
Hence the decision to go the instant route.
To be fair, after giving it a thought, I agree with their instant transfer design decision.
At first, the idea seemed quite bad and indeed unrealistic (in the game lore anyway). As a counterpart, and I'm sure it has been mentionned a lot, X2/X3 system which involves ordering ships around and giving them remote orders, in that case going from A to B, is a perfect example of transfer done right. The automated ship travels as fast as its specs allow it to, just that. Even better, you can give it any destination you like. Pretty neat.
But.
Elite is a different beast. You cannot deny its slow (well, sloooooooooow) pace. In the X series, you always have something to do while waiting. It's a resources heavy game, and allocating them, ensuring your factories work at their best, ordering your fleet(s) around, looking for potential markets and so on, ensure you won't be standing there doing next to nothing while waiting for your Eagle to travel bazillions light years. So you can go out and have fun with your friends in the CG. "I called my ship, guys, ETA 1 hour and 30 minutes. Anyone for a Scrabble?"
I haven't fired up the game for a long time now. And I love it. I love Elite, but I simply cannot bear sinking that much time in a game. It has nothing to do with instant gratification. Rather, it's about spare time management. The RNG nature of the engineers and the grinding feast it meant was too much. But it looks FD learned a few things along the way, and this instant transfer mechanic is a very encouraging sign for the future. Because it's a decision that is sure to repel a lot of players, but one that will pay off in the end.
Of all the folks who were furiously against the idea of an external camera to begin with, how much of them are still vocal about the feature? I bet most are using it happily. No matter how realistic you want it to be, Elite is first and foremost a game. Many times, this clashes directly with the search for realism.
At first, the idea seemed quite bad and indeed unrealistic (in the game lore anyway). As a counterpart, and I'm sure it has been mentionned a lot, X2/X3 system which involves ordering ships around and giving them remote orders, in that case going from A to B, is a perfect example of transfer done right. The automated ship travels as fast as its specs allow it to, just that. Even better, you can give it any destination you like. Pretty neat.
But.
Elite is a different beast. You cannot deny its slow (well, sloooooooooow) pace. In the X series, you always have something to do while waiting. It's a resources heavy game, and allocating them, ensuring your factories work at their best, ordering your fleet(s) around, looking for potential markets and so on, ensure you won't be standing there doing next to nothing while waiting for your Eagle to travel bazillions light years. So you can go out and have fun with your friends in the CG. "I called my ship, guys, ETA 1 hour and 30 minutes. Anyone for a Scrabble?"
I haven't fired up the game for a long time now. And I love it. I love Elite, but I simply cannot bear sinking that much time in a game. It has nothing to do with instant gratification. Rather, it's about spare time management. The RNG nature of the engineers and the grinding feast it meant was too much. But it looks FD learned a few things along the way, and this instant transfer mechanic is a very encouraging sign for the future. Because it's a decision that is sure to repel a lot of players, but one that will pay off in the end.
Of all the folks who were furiously against the idea of an external camera to begin with, how much of them are still vocal about the feature? I bet most are using it happily. No matter how realistic you want it to be, Elite is first and foremost a game. Many times, this clashes directly with the search for realism.
It's not just about time, I get what Slopey and Pugwash are saying here.
IMO it should entail hiring an AI pilot (your B-Spec Bob), plotting a scoopable route and having him fly it safely there non-stop.
As with missions, he's on the clock if you're logged in or not.
If you can't plot a route to get there, you can't take that ship there, simple.
It's like the scoopless Sideys way outside the bubble from long back, budgerigars the whole mechanic if there are ships that can't possibly have got where they are. Stops the whole "put a D rated FSD in my Cutter" issue too.
IMO it should entail hiring an AI pilot (your B-Spec Bob), plotting a scoopable route and having him fly it safely there non-stop.
As with missions, he's on the clock if you're logged in or not.
If you can't plot a route to get there, you can't take that ship there, simple.
It's like the scoopless Sideys way outside the bubble from long back, budgerigars the whole mechanic if there are ships that can't possibly have got where they are. Stops the whole "put a D rated FSD in my Cutter" issue too.
I'm beginning to move from aghast to sanguine, generally for selfish reasons...
1) I don't play in Open
2) I don't do PP
3) I don't do Combat CGs as a rule
4) I have made it out to Jaques under my own steam and am wondering about how long I will stay here (maybe through to 2.2 beta and beyond)
With all that in mind, I am not seeing much direct impact on my galaxy from this change. I know this sounds a bit "I'm alright Jaques..." maybe it is representative of the data FDev have on their player demographic?
1) I don't play in Open
2) I don't do PP
3) I don't do Combat CGs as a rule
4) I have made it out to Jaques under my own steam and am wondering about how long I will stay here (maybe through to 2.2 beta and beyond)
With all that in mind, I am not seeing much direct impact on my galaxy from this change. I know this sounds a bit "I'm alright Jaques..." maybe it is representative of the data FDev have on their player demographic?
Yaffle
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And that sums it up perfectly. What's the point of a space travel game where travel is no longer part of the game?
At Köln they said, they wanted the players to use all the ships. Well, now they won't. I see everyone using the fastest ship, think jump range, then switching to the most convenient vessel for the job at hand.
We are loosing gameplay and flair, there are games, yes, and cheap games. Frontier please reconsider, you are hurting Elite Dangerous here.
Regards everyone.
We are loosing gameplay and flair, there are games, yes, and cheap games. Frontier please reconsider, you are hurting Elite Dangerous here.
Regards everyone.
Walking in a base to board my ship would be engaging. That's something to do, rather than waiting or being forced to find something else to do while I wait.
There is no loss of sense of scale in the galaxy for everyone, and anyone who does feel that way
A) are not forced to use the feature
or
B) can self impose their own wait time while pretending they have to wait.
No one asked for Arena and if you look at how many people play it-- most people don't want it. So moot point. FD doesn't tell me where to play, and that's that. Go on and pontificate about "instant gratification" all you want but I have better things to do than imagine a videogame is my life-- and that doesn't mean I have no right to play it.
This is not a problem of realism/rping/pretending...It's a problem of gameplay. Why in the world would you use something else than an ASPx to travel when you can summon an A-rated ship with low jump range ?
Based on the results in the poll, ship transfers should take even longer than piloting the ship yourself, presumably for the convenience of not having to play the game. Yes, I'm being silly and pointing out how easy it is to misinterpret information due to a personal bias.
No need to beat around the bush. Having instant ship transfers is a bad idea and it seems that a significant majority of us agree with that.
Now Frontier just needs to acknowledge that and implement a system to transfer ships which makes more sense. There are easy enough ways to viable accomplish this, some of which I've already mentioned in the thread.
Yes, I'm being silly and pointing out how easy it is to misinterpret information due to a personal bias.No need to beat around the bush. Having instant ship transfers is a bad idea and it seems that a significant majority of us agree with that.
Now Frontier just needs to acknowledge that and implement a system to transfer ships which makes more sense. There are easy enough ways to viable accomplish this, some of which I've already mentioned in the thread.
This'll do wonders for Lakon sales
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