2.2's Instant Ship and Module Transport - Yay or Nay?

[BostromNZ]

This is a long thread so apologies if I cover something that others have already said.

On balance I think ship transfer is a positive.

I have concerns like others about what it means for the scale of the game and the variety of ships we’ll see as I imagine most will outfit an Asp with an engineered FSD as their taxi, only hopping into other ships when they need that role. It takes away the decision around what ship to take and what loadout would be best. Why even have multi-purpose ships if you can take your long jumper to a station then transfer your trader or fighter to your location?

On the other hand, it might increase the use of different ships. For instance I can’t stand travelling in the iCourier, it’s heat management and poor scooping ability (for my loadout) is a big negative but if I can just get it delivered then I might use it more.

It does remove FSD range as a characteristic of the ships which I think is a shame, they lose a little part of their individual personalities.

I think it should be balanced by cost but with no distance cap. It’s true that there are many commanders with multiple billions but they need a money sink so long range transfers should be very expensive. Want to get your Vette to Jacques? 500m credits minimum. Don’t like the price? Then fly it there yourself.

I also think it should be instant. If you’re going to implement a game mechanic then do it, don’t half implement it, making players wait will only cause frustration.

Module storage and transfer is probably even more exciting to me than ship transfer. Now we will only need to concentrate on engineering one of each core module to max in each size/class and then load them into different ships as we need them. I’d be keen to know if this includes hardpoints. If it does we’re essentially carrying around our own outfitting facility with us wherever we go. It also let’s us store engineered modules that have different secondary effects. Overall, it’s a great feature and if transfer means we don’t have to fly half way across the bubble to access our inventory then I’m all for it.

 

[Yaffle]

Folks, let's leave the personal comments out be they aimed at each other or the devs.

 

[bitstorm]

I'd still like to know what people who want wait times expect multicrews to do. With the best will in the world, no group of players is going to gather at one station, all play for the same amount of time, and then hop back to where their ships are waiting. What happens when someone not on their own ship leaves the ship they're on, or logs off? Or if the owner of the ship logs off?

Options seem to be:

a) Drop the player at the station their ship is at. I can feel people's realism breaking from here with that.
b) Log them back in on the ship they were crewing - I've seen that suggested, but I'm not seeing that being viable unless the ship owner happens to be online.
c) Drop them at the last station the ship they were on visited - which potentially strands them with no ship, and if a delay is added, possibly for hours.

d) Oh, I don't know, some kind of existing framework which allows a player to summon their ship to them instantly?

I honestly think, besides the convenience, this is why ship transfers are going in right now - multicrew's coming before the end of season 2, and there's got to be some logistics to handle it. In comparison, wings are trivial.

Actually this is a good point.

You think this a decision influenced more with dealing with the 2.3 issue of coordinating people and not causing a major headache, though on (d) the cost the player would incur feels a bit unfair.

Though I'm thinking with multicrew some compromise to realism simply will have to be made regardless, and I prefer option (a), I think it would likely be perceived in the same way you can jump right to orbit by switching from Horizons to base ED. ie Just a necessary compromise.

And whatever compromise they choose, be it a-d, given it's a necessity for multi-crew, I don't see any good reason why whatever solution they come up with has to compromise other parts of the game.

 

[Metharius]

The gameplay values it adds are called strategy, planning, and tactics.
These are the things that generally separate great games with longevity from the rest.

Choice of ship is the most important aspect of the game. Removing any need to ever compromise on that removes a lot of gameplay.

The 'don't use it' argument is weak.

if only it was simply weak ... at least it would be an argument...
but the fact is that this isn t even an argument.
from the moment this game is a multiplayer game the argument of : "just don t use it" is invalid.
that s why:
-exploits are fixed
-cheating by modifying save file to give you 1 billion cr are not allowed (thats why your save isn t local).

if elite was a single player game i couldn t care less and simply not use it, i would simply consider it as a tool for thoses wanting a more arcade version of the game.

 

[Roybe]

I'm ok with instant transfer....removes an 'immersion' factor for quality of life. I want to play, not fly for an hour round trip just to have the right equipment for the job I want to do tonight. Particularly if I only have a half hour to play.

 

[kofeyh]

Well, looking at the live stream notes for transfers, it's instant and will be chicken feed for most small ships over short ranges. that is, the ones generally not blessed with trivially small jump ranges.

So congrats. Being instant, and cash based on size means you better have billions on tap because shifting that medium FDL 350LY is prob going to be a million or so to do.

To Jaques? Forget it. Drive. Everything. Because instant gratification makes the entire thing unusable over range. Over half a mil to move beluga 140LY. Probably 7-9 mins to jump manually. Or less. Heck that's probably within its entire range so no scoop required.

hyper wealthy are fine of course. So I won't care that it might cost a few mil to shift ships around. It's nothing. What's a couple mil between friends. Nice work frontier.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I dunno... With or without a time limit, a portion of the manual nature of the game is lost. Seems Sandro devs as badly as he dresses. Who wants to chip in for a legacy server?

Nothing is lost, really, enough of drama. Ship transfer has been always planned and if that's news for you, welcome to ED development, and pay more attention next time.

Sure, having to travel somewhere twice is something I am afraid to lose. Like ever.

 

[Lobstris]

I've explained how to play the "immersion" game already: call ship at end of gaming session, log out, use next day -> problem solved, so yea, I'm getting a bit tired of being confronted with the same non-issues all over.

And I already stated why your 'solution' is a 'non-solution' a couple of pages back. If everyone abides but the 'log out' rule, or it is enforced server side somehow, fine.

 

[ThatFuzzyTiger]

Actually this is a good point.

You think this a decision influenced more with dealing with the 2.3 issue of coordinating people and not causing a major headache, though on (d) the cost the player would incur feels a bit unfair.

Though I'm thinking with multicrew some compromise to realism simply will have to be made regardless, and I prefer option (a), I think it would likely be perceived in the same way you can jump right to orbit by switching from Horizons to base ED. ie Just a necessary compromise.

And whatever compromise they choose, be it a-d, given it's a necessity for multi-crew, I don't see any good reason why whatever solution they come up with has to compromise other parts of the game.

The odds are it'll be a combination of b and c, but with their last ship piloted going *ZING* and appearing where they're at. Which leads to an interesting proposition, if you've got a four seater ship, and you've got four people with Anacondas. You get to your chosen location, warp your three buddies into the seats next to you, logoffski so they drop into the nearest station... *ZING* ... and you've just made hot drop pockets!

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

And I already stated why your 'solution' is a 'non-solution' a couple of pages back. If everyone abides but the 'log out' rule, or it is enforced server side somehow, fine.

Why it is suddenly about others? I thought it was *you* worried about your immersion. Even with others arguments are close to moot.

 

[Roybe]

Well, looking at the live stream notes for transfers, it's instant and will be chicken feed for most ships over short ranges.

So congrats. Being instant, and cash based on size means you better have billions on tap because shifting that FDL 150LY is prob going to be millions to do.

To Jaques? Forget it. Drive. Everything. Because instant gratification makes the entire thing unusable over range. Over half a mil to move beluga 140LY. Probably 9-10 mins to jump manually. Or less. Heck that's probably within its entire range so no scoop required.

hyper wealthy are fine of course. What's s couple mil between friends. Nice work frontier.

I'm thinking a few hundred credits to move anything anywhere!

 

[saremun]

I'm ok with instant transfer....removes an 'immersion' factor for quality of life. I want to play, not fly for an hour round trip just to have the right equipment for the job I want to do tonight. Particularly if I only have a half hour to play.

Awesome then i want the ability to jump directly to planets in space because it takes a long time to super cruise around...do you see what is happening?

 

[bitstorm]

2.3 Introduces Pilot Teleportation because actually flying anywhere is just inconvenient.

Well in yeah it probably will, like Wolfechu says multicrew is likely going to mean that compromise other wise it becomes a huge pita.

 

[sgurr]

This is an argument academics fight over - what is a game? Narrative immersion or engaging gameplay? The bottomline, as with things lacks a definitive answer and is more contextual to the player than the game they are playing. Refueling, repairing, rearming, pads etc are not immersion breaking because they engage the gameplay. They are moments that whether they're 2 seconds or 4 minutes will make no difference in 95% of instances. You can thereby reduce them as their common and remove the "realism" to apply the gameplay to flow and allow players to immerse themselves in the aesthetics that do matter.

Ship deployment being instaneous is not the same because it does seriously affect gameplay and system mechanics throught Elite. It changes how you play the game, dilutes it even. Yes people may vote for it on reddit, but equally, I've seen people grind Engineers until they've done it all, and now say they're bored... well didn't you see that coming? What we want doesn't always equate to what we will find enjoyable. Being able to insta-ship at any point in Elite changes how we play. It is reductive to the roles we take on, for at any point we can switch roles to the Max. We don't consider the world as real anymore because something has come in that takes the real out in a signifcant, not minor way.

It's like a film. We will let certain things go in a film because they're inconsquential or in the spirit of that genre. We can enjoy watching Indy leap between trucks, sliding beneath them and accept it because that's the spirit of the film's universe. If we saw that in the Wire, we might feel it weakens the show. Insta-ship movement would work probably for a strategy app game, but in Elite, it doesn't fit how the rest of the world is structured.

And of course, like a film, we do let small things pass us by when it suits. We can let go aliens in a sci-fi speaking English, but we have a real issue when Han shoots first, or an ex-stormtrooper can weild a lightsaber perfectly when convienient. My point is all forms of entertainment have immersion breaks we accept. We don't have to see our heroes in the toilet to know what they've done when they've gone to the restroom - we can jump that point easily, just as we can have a fast refuel. We'd be irritated if the hero could suddenly just found a perfect vehicle in the desert, or escaped an occupied country with few encounters, because it just doesn't fit with the world we're given.

On so many levels this is wrong, I find it very hard to see the arguments why its right bar "I want it, you don't, go away cos I want it". It changes everything in a way a fast refuel does not.

I'm hoping these are ideas FDev have not really considered and will think about their broader issues. Especially as it will affect how we treat our ships - especially our fleet. As has been said, you'll need really only two top ships, the rest are candy. One that goes far, one that is suped up in arms. The rest don't matter, just max out for a fee at any station. That to me suggests it could affect the worth and long scale value of the Engineers. Maybe something that is more obvious player side.

Very eloquently put!

Edit: I'm someone who might now be regarded as a casual player and I think instant ship transfer is an insidiously bad idea.

 

[BostromNZ]

Over half a mil to move beluga 140LY.

All of the costs were placeholders.

 

[Roybe]

Awesome then i want the ability to jump directly to planets in space because it takes a long time to super cruise around...do you see what is happening?

Yeah, slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy. Try again!

To add to this, how many people you think have stopped or severely limited their playtime out of the bad time sink level found within this game?

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

All of the costs were placeholders.

But they will cost a lot, if Sandro words are any indication.

 

[ThatFuzzyTiger]

But they will cost a lot, if Sandro words are any indication.

The youtube stream indicated "A nominal fee", I doubt it's going to be bank breaking.

 

[Yaffle]

But they will cost a lot, if Sandro words are any indication.

Watch all the way to the end, listen to Adam say 'nominal'.

But, until it's in game we are simply guessing.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

The youtube stream indicated "A nominal fee", I doubt it's going to be bank breaking.

It will be tied to ship value. "A nominal fee" indeed.