2.2's Instant Ship and Module Transport - Yay or Nay?

[Sandmann]

What say you Sandro? Really want to know :S

Good luck.

No, seriously... good luck. I wanna hear it too.

 

[Verax]

I really want to hear Sandro's response to the overwhelming criticism of this idea of instant transfer. If such a large majority are concerned that they are throwing much of the game design under a bus, I'd like to know what Frontier's logic is behind this move?

Clearly we don't want an Arcade game. We want to feel like we're living in the advertised 1:1 galaxy. We also want system economies and local module availability to have meaning. And for there to be a reason to own, fly, and upgrade a fleet of ships in every aspect, not for RP reasons, but because there is a believable gameplay reason to do so.

What say you Sandro? Really want to know :S

You mean the grossly misrepresentative majority manufactured in this skewed population of a forum? Lol.

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100% agreed!
Hey, ED is NO SIMULATION! It is a Space-GAME!
Let us have fun!

Absolutely right. The players opposed to this feature just don't want anyone having fun in a way that they don't approve of.

 

[Sandmann]

So... do you plan to ask for realistic cargo loading times, realistic repair times and so one too ?

If they gave us something else to do on station delays for repair and loading would be great. Maybe not realistic ones, but a few minutes while we walk to the space bar and back, why not? More gameplay is a good thing, it's not just about pewpew. Maybe you cohld bribe them to bump you up the list and load your ship first.

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You mean the grossly misrepresentative majority manufactured in this skewed population of a forum? Lol.

Second time I've seen you make this claim without supporting evidence other than your ego.

 

[sgurr]

@Verax

I was going to engage with you but having had a look through your responses you are not addressing the quality arguments people are presenting for why this is a bad idea, for the most part you either ignore them, insult the argument without addressing it, (contradicting yourself in the process several times) or say those making them are selfish, (as if you aren't selfish for wanting instant ship transfer)

People have expressed many, many good reasons around gameplay and exploits why instant transfer is a bad idea on this thread. I hope FD take the time to filter through the shouting to read them.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Fails the "Stateless" test. Would need a scheduler (the missions are stateless until you actually complete them, interestingly enough, they're just a countdown timer and a set of conditions which you need to fulfill, the countdown timer can be run by a simple date() check client-side of all things), whereas player bound assets would be tied to a server arbitrated scheduler as you've already paid out for the service, that's an order of magnitude trickier.

Really? We only "know" where ships are when we look at the galaxy map or shipyard - given that there is already a location check when we open these screens, just add a "has the ship arrived" date/time comparison to those screens and they would only be checked when players actually go looking for them - as said before, the ship could be instantly placed in its new location on completion of the transfer transaction and the game would show "in transit" until the "docked" date/time for that ship was no longer in the future.

 

[Verax]

Yeah ship and module transfer would save lots of time even if it took 1 hour. That's still more believable than instant delivery.

Instant delivery breaks the Elite lore and in-game rules. Waiting for a short while makes things more rewarding than if you can get it in a snap of your fingers.

Don't sacrifice realism for the sake of instant gratification of players without patience.

So false.

Let players play how they want. Isn't that what combat loggers always say? They seem to get a lot of support on these forums.

It usually takes about an hour to fly an FDL from one end of the bubble to the other (or perhaps slightly less). Imposing an hour wait time saves no time at all. That's a terrible idea.

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Ok, in this vain let's get rid of insurance, it hinders fun. Heck let's get rid of credits so that everyone can use the ship he wants. And why do i have to travel to the other side of the galaxy in the first place when i just want to have fun there? Let me teleport there...

Hyperbole in place of real argument.

 

[sgurr]

This point ...

So... do you plan to ask for realistic cargo loading times, realistic repair times and so one too ?

was best addressed by Sans Daring here:

This is an argument academics fight over - what is a game? Narrative immersion or engaging gameplay? The bottomline, as with things lacks a definitive answer and is more contextual to the player than the game they are playing. Refueling, repairing, rearming, pads etc are not immersion breaking because they engage the gameplay. They are moments that whether they're 2 seconds or 4 minutes will make no difference in 95% of instances. You can thereby reduce them as their common and remove the "realism" to apply the gameplay to flow and allow players to immerse themselves in the aesthetics that do matter.

Ship deployment being instaneous is not the same because it does seriously affect gameplay and system mechanics throught Elite. It changes how you play the game, dilutes it even. Yes people may vote for it on reddit, but equally, I've seen people grind Engineers until they've done it all, and now say they're bored... well didn't you see that coming? What we want doesn't always equate to what we will find enjoyable. Being able to insta-ship at any point in Elite changes how we play. It is reductive to the roles we take on, for at any point we can switch roles to the Max. We don't consider the world as real anymore because something has come in that takes the real out in a signifcant, not minor way.

It's like a film. We will let certain things go in a film because they're inconsquential or in the spirit of that genre. We can enjoy watching Indy leap between trucks, sliding beneath them and accept it because that's the spirit of the film's universe. If we saw that in the Wire, we might feel it weakens the show. Insta-ship movement would work probably for a strategy app game, but in Elite, it doesn't fit how the rest of the world is structured.

And of course, like a film, we do let small things pass us by when it suits. We can let go aliens in a sci-fi speaking English, but we have a real issue when Han shoots first, or an ex-stormtrooper can weild a lightsaber perfectly when convienient. My point is all forms of entertainment have immersion breaks we accept. We don't have to see our heroes in the toilet to know what they've done when they've gone to the restroom - we can jump that point easily, just as we can have a fast refuel. We'd be irritated if the hero could suddenly just found a perfect vehicle in the desert, or escaped an occupied country with few encounters, because it just doesn't fit with the world we're given.

On so many levels this is wrong, I find it very hard to see the arguments why its right bar "I want it, you don't, go away cos I want it". It changes everything in a way a fast refuel does not.

I'm hoping these are ideas FDev have not really considered and will think about their broader issues. Especially as it will affect how we treat our ships - especially our fleet. As has been said, you'll need really only two top ships, the rest are candy. One that goes far, one that is suped up in arms. The rest don't matter, just max out for a fee at any station. That to me suggests it could affect the worth and long scale value of the Engineers. Maybe something that is more obvious player side.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Another question: if we will be able to summon ships and modules instantly for a fee, why not allow us to buy any ship or module from any dock (subject only to maximum pad size) for an additional fee?

 

[Verax]

@Verax

I was going to engage with you but having had a look through your responses you are not addressing the quality arguments people are presenting for why this is a bad idea, for the most part you either ignore them, insult the argument without addressing it, (contradicting yourself in the process several times) or say those making them are selfish, (as if you aren't selfish for wanting instant ship transfer)

People have expressed many, many good reasons around gameplay and exploits why instant transfer is a bad idea on this thread. I hope FD take the time to filter through the shouting to read them.

No they haven't, lol-- and you're just pretending to have something good to say that you're holding back... in lieu of something actually good to say.

 

[MyHammer]

You mean the grossly misrepresentative majority manufactured in this skewed population of a forum? Lol.

-

Why dont I like the tone of your post? Cant we have a rational discussion without the underlying feeling of picking at each others throats just to make ones points?

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Btw on a tangent, your example about insurance is patently ridiculous if you're implying it's somehow realistic. What kind of insurance company can and will repeatedly pay for multiple clients' insurance claims with only a 5-10% deductible from the total bill without charging any premiums AND never cancelling a policy.... without going out of business in hours? The magical make-believe completely fake kind, that's what

i think you need to do some bedtime reading on the lore. We pay the excess which is 5% of the payout (or less for the lucky few) the Pilots Federation pay the premium. Now, it is fair to assume the more claims you have the more the PF have to pay for your premium, so personally i would be all for the PF getting angry if we claimed too much and we lost rep - and the possibility of getting booted from it and losing insurance full store would be something i would be happy if FD considered.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

To me, instant transportation is a huge kick in the teeth for ship diversity and part of the need for engineers. Imagine the commander who spent hours finding materials to give their Combat Hog a 30% jump range boost, in order to get themselves to even the most distant war zones....then along comes some post 2.2 Yahoo, in their stripped down, unmodified hauler, who can do the same thing but without any need to manage their ship resources or upgrade their FSD's. Way to negate months of hard work with the snap of your fingers.

Having timed transportation-based on the actual, ideal jump range of the ship you're transporting-still provides a time saving benefit for the player, but without screwing up gameplay balance. However, if that is a bridge too far, then a maximum range of transport (based on the current maximum range of your ship), a limit of 1 ship per 24 hours and/or a cost in materials as well as credits would be an acceptable compromise IMHO.

 

[Verax]

Another question: if we will be able to summon ships and modules instantly for a fee, why not allow us to buy any ship or module from any dock (subject only to maximum pad size) for an additional fee?

Good question. We should probably ask for that next. After all, the stations are really just procedurally generated re-use of assets, and markets are static and reset on a set interval. There's really no actual relevance to where anything is purchased, aside from the few locations where FD arbitrarily adds a discount.

 

[Khelder]

Random thought...

You can't have operational POI scanner under 2km because it would make locating POIs too easy. Instead, players have to land and use the wave scanner to hopefully find the location.

You can't possibly put a small indicator showing the centre of the "blue zone" to make it easier for pilots to stick to optimal speed. This would disadvantage skilled pilots.

For a company that at times seems bent on forcing certain types of gameplay, insta-magic transfers seems a little out of place.

 

[Verax]

i think you need to do some bedtime reading on the lore. We pay the excess which is 5% of the payout (or less for the lucky few) the Pilots Federation pay the premium. Now, it is fair to assume the more claims you have the more the PF have to pay for your premium, so personally i would be all for the PF getting angry if we claimed too much and we lost rep - and the possibility of getting booted from it and losing insurance full store would be something i would be happy if FD considered.

If FD can't be bothered to include a syllable of said lore ​in the actual game, (or have it make any sense, even in the way you are suggesting with loss of rep or actual expulsion from PF) then I can't be bothered to care about it. Sounds like bad writing.

 

[Wyaston Hypatia]

I am a PvE player. I play mainly in Möbius and Solo. I play a self imposed Ironman. I play with several other self imposed restrictions. I am an Immersion player.

I don't like what has been proposed around instantaneous transport because it affects my Immersion, it breaks the rules of consistence that presently exist in the ED universe. I think it would be a bad move for it to be implemented.

That implementation is I feel highly likely to happen whether I want it or not.

So if this comes in I'm faced with one of the following choices: using it and ignoring the universal inconsistency, placing it on my restriction list so I ignore it or rebuild my personal internal ED universe so it fits.

I'm currently trying to rebuild my 'personal internal ED universe' in the hope that it can work for me - I don't like using my ignore strategy. I don't like having to do complex handwavium jiggery-pokery but needs must. So here's what I have so far:

• All ships are assembled using advance construction technology - this is advanced enough to be near instantaneous.
• All modules are likewise assembled.
• The technology also exists to recycle the ship & modules within a similar near instantaneous timeframe.
• All ships and modules are built to a blueprint that is based on a single (historical or prototype) ship - this is why all ships of a type look exactly the same.
• When a ship is stored - it is in fact recycled - and the blueprint modified to include damage etc - also no cargo storage in stored ships - they don't exist.
• When a ship is retrieved from storage - the blueprint, which you own (it's what you purchased) is used to re-create your ship.
• And modules as well (engineered modules have a blueprint created by the engineer so transfer of them is possible).
• Now the new instantaneous ship transfer isn't physical ship transfer, it's just that you can rebuild a ship from blueprints you own at a shipyard distant from the one it was recycled at.
• You must own the blueprints to be able to recreate your ship - so that's why ships & modules can be limited at stations -they are not licensed to sell them (it's also how Jaques could get a shipyard with ships so quickly).

I can live with this, in fact as I write it I'm starting to like it. It will however still require some self imposed restrictions I think.

I also agree that it will affect the meta and that the above does nothing to fix that. I am personally neutral on this but can see how it can have a very detrimental affect on others. I can see how others will exploit it. I however don't think that it will have a large affect on my play style but I will have to see.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Oh please. Most of you are just overprotective of your little safe haven at Jacques. That's another of the ulterior motives here. Selfish.

i have never been to Sag A or Jacques, my longest exploration trip is probably around 1K LY. i still think the instant transfer sucks.

The 1 thing i will add, i think it sucks for immersion/believable galaxy reasons HOWEVER I do think some players saying make it realistic travel time and all the downsides of instant travel will be gone are actually mistaken. having realistic delivery time ONLY makes the game plausible, it wont stop people shipping in fully speeced combat ships to distant stations imo........ using this as a reason to not have instant travel may be a bit of a red herring, after all, if i wanted my FDL at jacques i can have it, even if it takes 2 days, so what? i can set it off on a Monday and even if it is the longest of journeys it will be there by the weekend.

 

[Verax]

Random thought...

You can't have operational POI scanner under 2km because it would make locating POIs too easy. Instead, players have to land and use the wave scanner to hopefully find the location.

You can't possibly put a small indicator showing the centre of the "blue zone" to make it easier for pilots to stick to optimal speed. This would disadvantage skilled pilots.

For a company that at times seems bent on forcing certain types of gameplay, insta-magic transfers seems a little out of place.

Oh there's already plenty of "insta magic" in the game. Bring on the yes buts...

 

[Cosmo]

So false.

Let players play how they want. Isn't that what combat loggers always say? They seem to get a lot of support on these forums.

If Frontier allows players to fully play how they want, then they must remove all in-game restrictions. That doesn't happen, because people must be immersed in this virtual Milky Way galaxy.

It usually takes about an hour to fly an FDL from one end of the bubble to the other (or perhaps slightly less). Imposing an hour wait time saves no time at all. That's a terrible idea

It takes a lot more time if you get interdicted and you cannot move multiple ships at once without ship transfer.

As I said in another thread: it's a big deal to instantly teleport an armada to another location on the other side of the galaxy (hundreds of thousands of light years away). It's not believable and ruins immersion.

Why would we journey for days to reach Sagittarius A if we can just teleport ships or robots and then use some kind of remote control.

Players should be able to order ship transfers in advance from any station. So when you arrive the ships will be ready.

 

[DaSucker]

I am a PvE player. I play mainly in Möbius and Solo. I play a self imposed Ironman. I play with several other self imposed restrictions. I am an Immersion player.

I don't like what has been proposed around instantaneous transport because it affects my Immersion, it breaks the rules of consistence that presently exist in the ED universe. I think it would be a bad move for it to be implemented.

That implementation is I feel highly likely to happen whether I want it or not.

So if this comes in I'm faced with one of the following choices: using it and ignoring the universal inconsistency, placing it on my restriction list so I ignore it or rebuild my personal internal ED universe so it fits.

I'm currently trying to rebuild my 'personal internal ED universe' in the hope that it can work for me - I don't like using my ignore strategy. I don't like having to do complex handwavium jiggery-pokery but needs must. So here's what I have so far:

• All ships are assembled using advance construction technology - this is advanced enough to be near instantaneous.
• All modules are likewise assembled.
• The technology also exists to recycle the ship & modules within a similar near instantaneous timeframe.
• All ships and modules are built to a blueprint that is based on a single (historical or prototype) ship - this is why all ships of a type look exactly the same.
• When a ship is stored - it is in fact recycled - and the blueprint modified to include damage etc - also no cargo storage in stored ships - they don't exist.
• When a ship is retrieved from storage - the blueprint, which you own (it's what you purchased) is used to re-create your ship.
• And modules as well (engineered modules have a blueprint created by the engineer so transfer of them is possible).
• Now the new instantaneous ship transfer isn't physical ship transfer, it's just that you can rebuild a ship from blueprints you own at a shipyard distant from the one it was recycled at.
• You must own the blueprints to be able to recreate your ship - so that's why ships & modules can be limited at stations -they are not licensed to sell them (it's also how Jaques could get a shipyard with ships so quickly).

I can live with this, in fact as I write it I'm starting to like it. It will however still require some self imposed restrictions I think.

I also agree that it will affect the meta and that the above does nothing to fix that. I am personally neutral on this but can see how it can have a very detrimental affect on others. I can see how others will exploit it. I however don't think that it will have a large affect on my play style but I will have to see.

+1
This!