2.2's Instant Ship and Module Transport - Yay or Nay?

[StiTch]

Creating a tool for fast travel will decrease a diversity in the galaxy - Every player ship we meet will be an asp/conda/dbe, and this will break a need to travel in ship like vette or fdl's at all.

Another excellent point ^

 

[Ozzie F Isaacs]

I'd basically say, if FD can add a delay without significant effort, and no technical challenges, then they should do it. If not, then just explain to the community about those challenges and that its one of the reasons for not having a delay, and we can move on and just accept it.

I would rather they took the time to overcome the technical issues, if they can achieve real time tracking and movement of NPC controlled ships this opens countless new avenues for development, missions, employees and ship crew, emergent content etc. A quick fix, instant transfer does noting to advance the core game and once implemented would be near impossible to wind back. We have done without this for two years, whats the harm in delaying until it can be done right?

If there had to be a compromise, I'd say that module transfer should be instant ... I see no reason for the transfer not to be instant.

Disagree for the similar reasons to the ship transport. It negates any further development on the concept of home-bases, storage, and a whole host of other immersive content.

 

[Boomer Kay]

If a small percentage of the time taken to travel to the destination manually still equates to 25 minutes, does that still qualify as "fast"?

There have been several comments regarding any delay being unacceptable as the player will have nothing to do but wait until their ship arrives.

If a player chooses to do nothing while waiting for a ship delivery then that, of course, is their choice. Personally I'd use the ship I was in to do something while I was waiting for the optimal tool in my fleet to arrive and then undertake the task that I summoned it for in the first place.

A delay on ship transfer does not stop a player playing the game - they are already in one ship.

I suspect opponents to any delay expect to not be able to do anything else in their current ship (while waiting) as it is likely to be a stripped out long range ship in accordance with the current meta on "how to travel as fast as possible" and therefore incapable of doing anything else.

That is one scenario. The one that you percieve as "the most common"?
Again: median playtime as far as we know: 3 hours in 2 weeks. Go for the mean playtime? 11 hours in 2 weeks.
Imagine the "casual weekend captain" (and then imagine more than half of the playebase being in that corner rather than the trillionaire with 200 anacondas parked all over the bubble) flying his Vulture from the Bounty CG to the trading CG (which takes already between 1/3 to half his playtime), and then moving his T7 from the other side of the bubble to the trade CG
and having to "wait" another 10-30 minutes for that to arrive in "a realistic way". Half of that commanders playtime is spent doing absolutely nothing to contribute to his in-game goals.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

IF this abomination HAS to happen, and to be honest after thinking about it, even if FD DO change it to be timed, i hope there is a limit to how far one can do it....... ie maybe 500LY.

the whole point of a new bubble is to start again imo, and FD can control what stuff is out there. IF a player really wants a fully loaded combat FDL out there then imo they should work for it..... and that way, when you DO see such a ship it is a thing.

indeed, i hope FD use their noggin a bit, limit the ships out there, INC the AI, with only a VERY rare chance of seeing an ai ship outside of those for sale out there. that way the new bubble will have a different flavour to the main one.

and then respect to anyone who can stomach taking an FDL / vulture / cutter / T9 out there.

equally tho, if they get blown up, it would be cool if insurance had to give a cash payout instead due to being unable to source a replacment ship.
not directly related to ship transfer but am sure you can see this kind of complexity is GONE with unlimited unreastricted ship transfer.

 

[Kyokushin]

and then respect to anyone who can stomach taking an FDL / vulture / cutter / T9 out there.

I was in my FDL in Sgr A* last year Not a big deal, with 14 ly jump.

 

[Boomer Kay]

the whole point of a new bubble is to start again imo, and FD can control what stuff is out there. IF a player really wants a fully loaded combat FDL out there then imo they should work for it..... and that way, when you DO see such a ship it is a thing.

Well, then that might be the only ship you'll ever see there, since even with my 15 hours weekly play, I'm not going there in my ASP to "face" the no-life 80 hour a week player who can move his entire fleet without breaking a sweat.
So actually the opposite might be true - if the "average" player can get his ships around easier, there will be a) more players in open, since they have an easier time getting "open ready" ships somewhere
b) you will see a greater diversity of ships.

 

[kofeyh]

I suspect opponents to any delay expect to not be able to do anything else in their current ship (while waiting) as it is likely to be a stripped out long range ship in accordance with the current meta on "how to travel as fast as possible" and therefore incapable of doing anything else.

No. Any value that is greater-than 'now'. Because Frontier decided this time to start at the opposite end of the spectrum and make something as trivially simple as possible (think about the reaction to engineers - they won't have forgotten). How much goes under the bus is irrelevant (which in a way, it is, that door is already open).

If it's not "now" then it's invalid. Doesn't matter how much you define alternatives. It's "now" or riot. To be fair, Frontier dug their own grave for this, by conveniently ignoring all the rules they so thoughtfully constructed, when it suited purposes to do so.

It is their game, they have the luxury of driving it's direction. We might alter the path occasionally? But they set the course.

I have a sad feeling this isn't something the developer will budge on. We get instant transfer, because it's probably too late now to change the beat.

 

[Kyokushin]

Well, then that will be the only ship you'll ever see there, since even with my 15 hours weekly play, I'm not going there in my ASP to "face" the no-life 80 hour a week player who can move his entire fleet without breaking a sweat.

So fly there in Asp, transport vette and next day (or just after 10 hours, because this time would take normal flight) it will arrive... not instantly for a god sake. And you can explore, dig, whatever in meantime. Or just shut down the computer (because you have a limited time), and vette/FDL will be just ready on Your next session.

Thats how it should works.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

So since I first looked at this numbers for each options have basically doubled.

So still the vast majority AGAISNT instant transport.

Interestingly on the steam poll I've been running (much smaller sample size) only 17% want instant.... and a whopping 52% went for option 4! (I did the categories the same as this poll)

So much for steam forum being full of casuals!

Seriously, why does everyone assume that its casuals who want instant transport? I am lucky if I get 2 hours a night to play (can't play tonight as I have other commitments) & I am dead set against allowing transport to occur instantly. Its a completely different group of players that want this.....I suspect its the grinders.

 

[orfeboy]

No. Any value that is greater-than 'now'. Because Frontier decided this time to start at the opposite end of the spectrum and make something as trivially simple as possible (think about the reaction to engineers - they won't have forgotten). How much goes under the bus is irrelevant (which in a way, it is, that door is already open).

If it's not "now" then it's invalid. Doesn't matter how much you define alternatives. It's "now" or riot. To be fair, Frontier dug their own grave for this, by conveniently ignoring all the rules they so thoughtfully constructed, when it suited purposes to do so.

It is their game, they have the luxury of driving it's direction. We might alter the path occasionally? But they set the course.

I have a sad feeling this isn't something the developer will budge on. We get instant transfer, because it's probably too late now to change the beat.

Yes. As I said in a previous post back near the start of this thread, they started in the wrong place with this. They should have introduced a timer and allowed the community beat them down. Now if they introduce a timer there will be a whole bunch of whiners who will claim something has been taken away from them.

FD should have played it smart.

 

[Frambitam]

If a small percentage of the time taken to travel to the destination manually still equates to 25 minutes, does that still qualify as "fast"?

There have been several comments regarding any delay being unacceptable as the player will have nothing to do but wait until their ship arrives.

If a player chooses to do nothing while waiting for a ship delivery then that, of course, is their choice. Personally I'd use the ship I was in to do something while I was waiting for the optimal tool in my fleet to arrive and then undertake the task that I summoned it for in the first place.

A delay on ship transfer does not stop a player playing the game - they are already in one ship.

I suspect opponents to any delay expect to not be able to do anything else in their current ship (while waiting) as it is likely to be a stripped out long range ship in accordance with the current meta on "how to travel as fast as possible" and therefore incapable of doing anything else.

Not only that, but if, as the reason they were so keen on in the livestream, you just have to get into that CZ now because suddenly the trading that you decided to do that day is not what you want to do that day and CZ's are apparently difficult to find (???), then as this can only be done at a station with a shipyard anyway... outfit an afforable fighter that they sell quickly and go and fight until your favourite war machine arrives perhaps?

 

[kofeyh]

I think you'll find ship to is a more of a nonstarter than adding some sort of delay. "Ship to" is a fundamentally different animal to "ship from" and doesn't solve the key issue that ship transfer was implemented to address.

I know. But there isn't any alternative without a re-write. And I don't believe that will happen. It's an attempt to find a middle ground when clearly none can technically exist.

But you are correct - this is just the path Sandro has taken, and there is no way to temper this change; it's arguably already too late. Damage is done. It's how bad this will bust the game, that's to be determined. Absolutely more than people expect, is likely the answer.

 

[Boomer Kay]

So fly there in Asp, transport vette and next day (or just after 10 hours, because this time would take normal flight) it will arrive... not instantly for a god sake.

And what exactly does that delay add? That requires some serious additional coding, as we've established? (again, the client-side "immersion saving" solution is easy peasy .. *you* call *your* ship at the end of *your* gaming session and it will arrive with whatever time you spend out of the game delay .. yes, it's trivial .. no coding required, no cheesy hax to circumvent anything, everyone has the same rules and some like and apply them stricter)
And how exactly would you know how and when I got my Vette there?
Maybe I flew the Vette there in Open (it's more valid than flying the ASP there in open) and called for the ASP?

 

[NeilF]

My idea is that the game mechanic

a) Plots a route (in "economic" mode) to the destination and calculates the time based on that
b) Does not allow transfer if no possible route can be found (e.g. jump range to small).
c) Naturally, this would also mean ship transfer has a maximum range of 1000 Ly, which conveniently means that no, you cannot travel in your empty grade 5 Farseer'ed Anaconda to Jaques and then have your FDL delivered there.

a) Don't quite see the need for for "economic" personally.
b) Makes sense!
c) I quite like that! Seems a natural limitation!

If we assume we're going to get a simple implementation from FD, then at least a delayed delivery would make sense based on distance. So if you order a ship delivered, it will have a ETA (eg: An hour). Until that time has arrived your ship is in transit. Don't see any issue implementing that really.


Note: I made some suggestions about ship transport end of 2014 - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ip-Transfers?p=1188301&viewfull=1#post1188301

 

[Mephane]

If a small percentage of the time taken to travel to the destination manually still equates to 25 minutes, does that still qualify as "fast"?

There have been several comments regarding any delay being unacceptable as the player will have nothing to do but wait until their ship arrives.

If a player chooses to do nothing while waiting for a ship delivery then that, of course, is their choice. Personally I'd use the ship I was in to do something while I was waiting for the optimal tool in my fleet to arrive and then undertake the task that I summoned it for in the first place.

A delay on ship transfer does not stop a player playing the game - they are already in one ship.

I suspect opponents to any delay expect to not be able to do anything else in their current ship (while waiting) as it is likely to be a stripped out long range ship in accordance with the current meta on "how to travel as fast as possible" and therefore incapable of doing anything else.

Plus, you typically won't even miss out on things. For example, combat missions can be accepted even while you are sitting in a T7. See an awesome 2m credit paying assassination mission? Accept it, have the Vulture sent over, do a smuggling mission in the meantime.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I was in my FDL in Sgr A* last year Not a big deal, with 14 ly jump.

so you are living proof it is doable..... but my point is, do we (more importantly do FD) want the new bubble to be a carbon copy of the old one, with the same ships and the same flavour. if they do then the ship transfer wont really make a difference.

but they have an opportunity to make it feel totally different, and if that means ships like the FDL are rare, with only players like yourself doing it, then i am fine with that.

further more down the line, new ships could be built in the new bubble...... the dolphin and panther for instance, then thesse would be rare in the main bubble.... at least at the start. perhaps after a set amount of time, shipyards building the new ships, and the existing main bubble ships, could be built in their opposing bubbles, but when this happens other new ships could be introduced (assuming FD can manage 3 or 4 new ships a season).

 

[Robert Maynard]

Plus, you typically won't even miss out on things. For example, combat missions can be accepted even while you are sitting in a T7. See an awesome 2m credit paying assassination mission? Accept it, have the Vulture sent over, do a smuggling mission in the meantime.

Exactly.

 

[Mephane]

If there had to be a compromise, I'd say that module transfer should be instant, but ship transfer should take a while. The reason for this is that transfering modules doesn't really break game balance that much, whereas the ship transfer does. However, this is only necessary when taking powerplay into account. For normal gameplay instant transfer doesn't break anything, and considering that by comparison only a smal fraction of the players engages actively in powerplay (combat), I see no reason for the transfer not to be instant.

Then you'd still have effectively instantaneous ship transfer where the local starport sells the same ship type. Buy a new Vulture, have A-rated 5-grade modded gear from your old Vulture sent over instantly, sell old, empty, Vulture.

 

[Weps]

Half of that commanders playtime is spent doing absolutely nothing to contribute to his in-game goals.

Why would he be traveling to the CG in his Vulture if he needs to rendezvous with his T7 in the first place, and also head out to get the commodities for the CG? Wouldn't it be better to head out to where he's buying the goods at, call in his T7 there and then head to the CG? In which case, is it fair to consider the travel time to the rendezvous point absolutely arbitrary, considering the game's trading aspect is represented by both traveling to other systems and picking up goods?

This is again one comment which makes it sound like traveling from one place to another, to achieve something there, is a constraint implemented by the developers to torment us. It's like we're all supposed to forget what Elite has been at its core ever since launch.

PS:

I suspect opponents to any delay expect to not be able to do anything else in their current ship (while waiting) as it is likely to be a stripped out long range ship in accordance with the current meta on "how to travel as fast as possible" and therefore incapable of doing anything else.

That is a very good observation and something I haven't thought of before. Puts things a little into perspective on what actually drives people to carry out arguments.

 

[Angus]

I have realized with 2.1 that Sandro acts with utter disregard to David's vision (which many of us bought into when backing the game in the first place), and David just doesn't seem to see this.

Hold on there, Bald Eagle.... Sandro's a lovely chap, anybody can see that, and clearly a very talented Designer, if he's got this wrong (and I personally think he has) I have faith that he's cool enough to reconsider. I agree it does seem to fly in the face of the Braben/Brookes approach, but I think he got the SRV handling fun factor just right, its just that Fun Uber Alles approach (Cologne reference) doesn't sit so well when you are pretty much throwing the entire understood laws of time and space out of the airlock, especially given Elite's legacy of respect for science (mostly).

Come on Sandro, it doesn't need to be Newtonian, but please not Merlinian.