Depth and Motivation in E:D - the case for corporations

Just like no one forces you to join a Corp in Eve, but you really have to in order not to be shark bait.

Stop trying to make Elite into an Eve clone. If you want Eve then go play Eve and leave the rest of us alone.

Totally not true. You have zero reason to be in a corp in EVE if you want to live in high sec space. If you are not interested in PvP there is no reason to be in 0.0 or even low sec. You can get rich and do just fine in .5+. One of my 5 EVE accounts had never been in a copr and never left safe space oh and he made more money than most of my other combat oriented accounts.

Arguments about EVE by people who never played it are funny. I was in ASCN before BoB crushed them and then crushed BoB with Goonfleet, so please do not try to tell me how EVE is meant to be played.
 
But I have played EVE, tried to get into it several times. Elite is not EVE, not suppose to be. And I am very happy it isn't.
 
Wow. For a first post that is rather lengthy!

Hi.

Um. Lots of large player groups out there who work the back ground sim hard, increasing the wealth of systems as well as the population and available loadouts and shipyards.

Dig a little deeper! You will find a lot of what you are asking about here exists....

P.s. minus one point for using the word envision :)
 
Last edited:
Totally not true. You have zero reason to be in a corp in EVE if you want to live in high sec space. If you are not interested in PvP there is no reason to be in 0.0 or even low sec. You can get rich and do just fine in .5+. One of my 5 EVE accounts had never been in a copr and never left safe space oh and he made more money than most of my other combat oriented accounts.

Arguments about EVE by people who never played it are funny. I was in ASCN before BoB crushed them and then crushed BoB with Goonfleet, so please do not try to tell me how EVE is meant to be played.

^^This^^ is not how I want to perceive the events in this game. Thanks for backing up why player guilds and clan tags are so dumb.
 

Panticus

Banned
If we ask ourselves why so many players, myself included, get the feeling that depth is missing in this game, despite its incredibly well executed fundamentals -- I'm talking sound design, ship handling, graphics etc. --, we have to ask ourselves what it is that players are striving for in the game. What reason is there to continue playing after you have had some fun fighting in a RES, if you did a larger exploration run, or made some money trading? What reason is there to this repetitiveness?
Firstly, I want to explore possible reasons to keep playing and enjoying the game and examine where E:Ds shortcomings might lie.
After that, I will examine the whole problem together and look for a possible, comprehensive solution.

Keep in mind that in this post I will mostly focus on E:D's shortcomings, while not going into detail about the things it does right. This is not to say that I don't like the game; the reason I become so strongly agitated about this matter is because of the huge perceived potential hidden underneath it's apparent shallowness. There might be many other reasons for players to keep playing, but I will focus on the three factors where I feel the game could do so much more.

In other games where problems like this arise much less, there are several possible sources of motivations for players:

  • Changing and evolving gameplay. The further you progress (e.g. the bigger your ships get, the better your equipment becomes), the harder and more diverse and complex the game becomes as well. Enemies will be harder - but at the same time requiring you to think more strategically about all the game's mechanics to beat them. Games like Dark Souls do implement this very well - while in the early game, you can scrape by without really knowing what you're doing, later on it's required you have a firm grasp on the game's mechanics, and also on how to build your character. In E:D, designing ships is incredibly limited: There's only a few really viable weapon classes, many engineer upgrades are really undesirable, and quite a few ships do not handle that differently. At the same time, there is no next level or anything. You just stay in the RES and keep shooting the same enemies if you've got your bigger ships, only that now you might be able to fight that anaconda. But is that really enough depth? Why is there no actual levels for players, or dungeons with really rewarding loot and harder fights, or legendary bounties appearing on the message bords that you can hunt down and take down in an epic struggle?
  • The drive to shape the world. Many, especially newer games, really capitalize on this incredibly human desire: To leave something lasting, to shape the world we live in, to create a place to return to. E:D directly contradicts this very motivation, with players being basically forced to live nomadic lives - heck there's even diminishing returns for players staying too long in one sector (less navy rank, changing the state). Games like minecraft or rust work well partly because players can get creative and leave their imprint on the world. You can build something to call your home, and establish a little (or even big) base. There's intrinsic motivation in that, a real sense of accomplishment.
    In E:D we mostly grind to well, get the better ship. Then what? Power play is a joke and inaccesible to many players because of it's incredibly taxing and inconveniencing mechanics. What do we use our money on, and why should we strive to get the better ship?
  • The social experience. Many MMOs continue to exist mainly because of this: Most people are inherently drawn to social interaction. There is intrinsic worth in socializing with other people, in cooperation and teamwork, and there is a sense of coming together and forming a loosely or tightly knit group when overcoming obstacles together. In WoW you continue to play the game for many reasons, not the least of which is to just keep playing with your friends. In Eve Online there is this huge system of corporations, alliances and power blocks, where players fight over extractable ressources and territory. So much emergent gameplay arises from this very basic drive of territorial agonism.
    In E:D however, there is very little actual mechanics to build a group or corporation. The best we've got is wings, and even that doesn't really feel rewarding or incentivized. If you're RESing together, you even feel punished because bounty gets split. Mission running often bugs our or is impossible to coordinate. Trading often isnt worth it, piracy might be broken with the trade dividend system currently in place because profits seem to be calculated incorrectly.


Now, with that being said, what can be done?
I believe there is one concise solution that might fix most of the problems adressed in points two and three, and another one that mostly focusses on point one. I want to focus on this last suggestion first, and then finish with my main point.

Evolving combat: This one might be easy to identify. We need dungeons, we need better signatures and bounty hunting, better missions and better rewards to go with it. There's no elegant solution to this. The game, in this way, just needs more content, it's really that simple. Right now, there a harsh cut-off in terms of combat missions at a pay-off at about 1mil to 2mil credits, and that's just sad considering they take hours and are often broken. Signatures are ridiculously hard for what they offer most of the time. Yesterday I found a single AI relic - and got ambushed by about 8 pirate ships, including at least one anaconda. I don't know about the rest, I didn't have much time to count. At least make the reward for such hard encounters really worth it, or people go back to RES grinding.
Coop Missions would also be something that is really, really wanted by the community. Let's also not forget that there, in theory, are more weapons than pulse-lasers, multi-cannons and plasma accelerators. And even taking into account those eluse other weapons (like burst lasers), there should be more, and they should be balanced in a way that there's a niche for every weapon.

Group Building and Self-Actualization: I'm not sure how well known this game is in the E:D community, but X3 used to be my go-to space game a few years back. It was in many ways very much like E:D. There was an open world, though not randomly generated - but it was still pretty big, consisting of several hundred sectors. It featured a relatively advanced economic simulation model, with stations producing and requiring goods and natural emergence of trade routes because of this. At the same time, there was no real objective. You could fly around and do combat missions and get bigger ships, you could simply explore and see what's in those unexplored sectors, you could trade -- you get the gist. And yet it did not have that much of a depth problem, or a motivational one. There was one major difference: You could build your own corporation. You could build your own station complexes, producing their materials which would then get sold by your hired traders, earning you a constant flow of money. You would go looking for the most valuable asteroids to build mines on, and try to maximize your profits while keeping your ships safe and continuing just enjoying the game without constantly grinding.
In the end, you would even build military stations and hire a real fleet of combat ships. You could just waltz into a sector and try to take it out.
This feels like such a natural fit for E:D. The world and lore very much supports entrepeneurial endeavours like this: It's a cold one, with many people just on the lookout for themselves and a quick buck. There is so much space (literally and figuratively) in this galaxy, it's unsettling. And yet, we do not get to do anything with it. See that earth-like planet? Well here's some 50k bucks, now go play while the adults talk. Why not let us establish our own colony in a sector? Why not let us put down our own outposts, stations, and even system police forces? Let us hire miners and traders - heck, let us put down our own shipyards. Give us a chance to shape our own destiny in the unexplored reaches of the galaxy. This would also work well as a system for group building: Naturally you would have to work together to really make a difference here, and, just as naturally, incentives to cooperative would arise. Being part of your own corporation feels like such a cool thing, and such a natural thing as well. The power blocks could offer you, as a mercenary force or even loyalists, bigger missions and rewards, or you could try trading and making a profit from the pristine ressource in this new system. There would suddenly be things you could explore in this galaxy that would be hand-crafted, but not by the developers. There woul be so much more room for interaction, and reason's to explore. The game's mechanics would snap in place and work together, instead of existing as occupations competing for your time investment.

E:D right now only really works long term for people who treat this either like a dayjob in space, or as role-playing material. And that's fine, people are different, and we all should get to enjoy this game the way we like. But right now, that does not work out well for most of the other players. We need better mechanics in the very core of the game's reward and progression structure. A rebalancing of the weapons would also be very important. But what I would look forward to the most would be a corporation system in the way I envision it in this post, and I believe I made a strong point in support of it.

Keep it punchy. Like this:

'Keep it punchy.'
 
So me wanting social tools so i can tell people apart is making ED into EVE. Ok you keep telling yourself that. If the community of this game were as toxic and the game world as small as EVE´s you would have been shark bait in Elite long before anyone even mentioned it. Even if this was the case you would could still just go solo and nobody would be able to touch you, ever.

Saying wanting social tools in this game is making ED into EVE is absurd on so many levels. It´s like saying ED is now WoW because it has crafting and looting mechanics.
 
But I have played EVE, tried to get into it several times. Elite is not EVE, not suppose to be. And I am very happy it isn't.

Yeah - as are we all obviously. If I wanted EVE I'd play EVE. I am not looking for mega corp alliance brawls where I literally went to bed with my cellphone because I might get called to log back in to engage a titan. I'm too old for that crap and I doubt my wife would appreciate me jumping out of bed at 3am because we might be able to get a decisive victory if we all log in right now. I loved aspects of EVE but I do not miss some of the soul crushing aspects of EVE online warfare and I want no part of that in ED.

The addition of rudimentary guild functions to ED would not make it EVE. EVE is full loot, territory control open PVP game. It takes more than guids to make it that.
 
So me wanting social tools so i can tell people apart is making ED into EVE. Ok you keep telling yourself that. If the community of this game were as toxic and the game world as small as EVE´s you would have been shark bait in Elite long before anyone even mentioned it. Even if this was the case you would could still just go solo and nobody would be able to touch you, ever.

Saying wanting social tools in this game is making ED into EVE is absurd on so many levels. It´s like saying ED is now WoW because it has crafting and looting mechanics.

Commanders have names, that's how you tell them apart.
If you don't recognize the name, they aren't your friend, clan tag or not.
 
I don't think the game is set up to handle EVE-like corps. How are you going to run a corp when at most you'll only ever have 32 people in an instance? Forget staging any large scale ops. However I do think the game could do with better community tools. It would be neat to be able to actually JOIN a minor faction, so that you're tagged by it and the faction's state becomes your state (ie WAR, etc). Add some filters for being able to see what systems the faction is in, from the galaxy map, maybe a faction UI that shows where the highest paying or highest influence missions are, enable the faction to be in different states in different systems. If they add a minor faction-specific chat channel, even better.

My point is they have the basics of what in EVE are NPC corps; if they can flesh it out a bit and add faction chat we'd be in 100% better shape.
 
Last edited:
So me wanting social tools so i can tell people apart is making ED into EVE. Ok you keep telling yourself that..

No turning the game into corp vs corp where you wouldn't be able to effectively play the game unless you were in a corp is what would turn it in EVE.

More social tools is fine, adding such things as corporations isn't.
 
I don't think the game is set up to handle EVE-like corps. How are you going to run a corp when at most you'll only ever have 32 people in an instance? Forget staging any large scale ops. However I do think the game could do with better community tools. It would be neat to be able to actually JOIN a minor faction, so that you're tagged by it and the faction's state becomes your state (ie WAR, etc). Add some filters for being able to see what systems the faction is in, from the galaxy map, maybe a faction UI that shows where the highest paying or highest influence missions are, enable the faction to be in different states in different systems. If they add a minor faction-specific chat channel, even better.

This I can support, and have in fact suggested as the basis of a reboot of PowerPlay.
 
Dunno about corps and all that, but I would like to see Elites BGS begin handling a more detailed market with things like buying stock and shares and then plotting espionage to force movement in the markets. I feel that it could be quite interesting and offer another way to interact with the factions, it would be excellent for pirates who could focus on particular factions while trading legitimate stock to increase their gains.
 
If commanders have one of the more notorious tag like SDC or the CODE, and you are in your t9 in open, you bet that would save a lot of commanders a rebuy if they knew a hostile faction is up close. Most commanders aren´t hostile in the game, I´m sure you know that.

Also nobody advocated for that kind of game where corp vs corp is the only thing viable. Players can fight over territory already in that fashion but there is no point to it really. I just used "Corp" as equivalent of groups, guilds or whatever substitute you would like that enables you to team up with a group of people and be tagged as such, not actual corp warfare ala EVE.

I don´t want to apply to FDEV just because i want to create my own little group in the game with a few likeminded people. That´s just silly.
 
Last edited:
If commanders have one of the more notorious tag like SDC or the CODE, and you are in your t9 in open, you bet that would save a lot of commanders a rebuy if they knew a hostile faction is up close. Most commanders aren´t hostile in the game, I´m sure you know that.

Also nobody advocated for that kind of game where corp vs corp is the only thing viable. Players can fight over territory already in that fashion but there is no point to it really. I just used "Corp" as equivalent of groups, guilds or whatever substitute you would like that enables you to team up with a group of people and be tagged as such, not actual corp warfare ala EVE.

I don´t want to apply to FDEV just because i want to create my own little group in the game with a few likeminded people. That´s just silly.

Yep, and I think the in-game minor factions are the basis they could build from
 
No in game guild chat. No in game guild roster. No in game guild management. There are no player guilds in ED. Stop acting like there are.

"There are guilds, they just aren't run by players." What? Isn't that like the whole core point? You know controlling your own destiny and all that...

Seriously? I can't even. It's like saying, "I have a car, I just can't control where it takes me!"

It's more like saying
"I have a bus and I want people to get on so I can drive them to a place of my choosing. Why does no one want to get on my bus? You guys won't let me control my own destiny"
 
Last edited:
If we take away the possibility that the bus driver might be the owner of its own tourist company and actually did choose the places he ferries those people to.
 
Ok so...

No, let's not turn the game into Eve online. And by that I mean, it shouldn't be possible for someone to "own" a station to the effect that you're able to disallow certain players to dock.

BUT...

You could still own/run that station, earn profits from its operation, fight to keep control etc - all while not giving you the means to lock of parts of space. It's all in the details.

And really, there's no reason for not being able to build and own, for example, small outposts or ground bases.
 
Wow, I did not expect this much feedback, even though I kind of hoped for some resonance. It seems to me like this is a topic that many players relate to, in one way or another, and often quite intensely so.
I've followed the discussion so far, and many important points were made, but I do get the feeling that I was slightly misunderstood in my vision for those 'corporations', or whatever you want to call them.

I do not want this game to turn into Eve-Online, god no. There is a reason I do not go back there. At its core, E:D should offer a compelling PvE experience, and this is exactly where I envision those corporations. Allow us to own our own stations, to mold those far reaches of the galaxy, and to make profit off it. Let's not go to the point of actually being forced to defend it against large scale assaults in open! I don't think this heavily PvP oriented design suits elite. I want the game to become more enjoyable for *everyone*, not take away from it. Thus, I don't believe that anyone can sincerely disagree with this concept: Anyone not willing to cooperatively build your own corporation in the depths of space isn't forced to do so - you can still wander about, or engage in power play or whatever. I just want to see some long-term goal for those of us that wish to create something more, and maybe have a decent steady inflow of money from that as well. We've got so many different planets out there - why not use them? If we find an earth-like planet, that should be a huge thing. Not just another 50k.

Okay, I hope that clears up some misunderstandings. In short, I don't want mega-corps to rule the game - but I want friends to be able to bond together and create something, just a place they can call their home, and build on that foundation.

Now, in the following, I'm going to look at some of the other replies this got:



  • "This is not what Elite is about. Elite is about a single pilot's journey, a lowly one at that." -- I don't think that is the the heart of the enjoyment of Elite. Elite is about experiencing the freedom of space. Why artificially limit this by disallowing the foundation of new corporations or the construction of a station or colony?
  • "The game you want E:D to become is already out there, go play it" - Which one? I'm sincerely interested, because I don't think it is. If you're talking eve, then no. Just no.
  • "Those features are already ingame, just use third party applications/forums to coordinate!" -- I think other posts have shown the inherent flaws with that. While emergent gameplay in this way is interesting, it just doesn't suffice at the most basic level.
  • "Have you tried power play/BGS?" -- As I've come to understand it, power play is essentially not something truly your own, and in the end only nets you some minor buffs while requiring constant attention and a LOT of work - yet it seems to be an incredibly repetitive thing to do.



I quite like this answer, it sums up my stance on the Eve controversy relatively well -- Adding this does not take away anything for those already enjoying the game at its fullest, but it will give those who feel it's seriously lacking something more. Something they can truly aspire to.
Ok so...

No, let's not turn the game into Eve online. And by that I mean, it shouldn't be possible for someone to "own" a station to the effect that you're able to disallow certain players to dock.

BUT...

You could still own/run that station, earn profits from its operation, fight to keep control etc - all while not giving you the means to lock of parts of space. It's all in the details.

And really, there's no reason for not being able to build and own, for example, small outposts or ground bases.
 
Back
Top Bottom