The Galaxy - Is its size now considered to be a barrier to gameplay by the Developers?

[JosiahD]

From a game design point of view, deciding what is gameplay and what is an unnecessary timesink is good practice.

I don't understand how everyone got up in arms with slippery slope arguments left and right.

No, designers deciding on a time-saving suspension of disbelief for a particular mechanic, doesn't mean they'll make away with everything in the game that takes time.

Their train of thought in this matter is obviously this:

When a player wants to attend a combat oriented CG, but is in a far away system, he just doesn't bother to attend. And the ones that do attend by coming from far away do it this way:

1- Fit the ship lightweight with an extra fuel tank or a fuel scoop, the largest FSD the ship can take. Naturally sell all the combat equipment which is usually heavy.

2- Travel to the CG system.

3- Try to combat fit the ship again, if necessary, jump between several systems and stations until you have all you need.

4- Attend the CG, (before 2.1 it was stay in the area until the CG ends. Fortunately it ended with 2.1)

5- Travel fit the sahip again

6- Go back home

7- Combat fit again, if necessary by jumping between several systems and stations.

How do they know this? They have all the data they need who attends the CGs and what they do exactly before and after they attended.

They know exactly how much time any one player spends doing what.

This doesn't mean they think nothing should take time. They just obviously want to do away with frustrating back and forth, usually for no good reason.

The ship and module transfer (and storage) was something requested especially by those who want to attend CGs but can't be bothered due to the tedium of getting a suitable ship there. Their data obviously matched the requests and they decided to go this way. Stop        g out about it.

However, if it's for CG participation purposes, in my experience all the CGs run for several days do they not? A transit time of, say, 2-3 hrs still ain't going to be an issue as far as CG participation goes, in almost all circumstances. Insta-transport still makes no sense even if it's specifically to increase CG participation as it's unlikely a wait time would ever prevent that participation (unless someone's very late on the scene in joining the CG, in which case they should've joined in sooner). And you hit the nail on the head in one respect - this insta-transport aspect seems to have been requested (has it? I know ship transfer has, many times, but instant ship transfer?) by those who want to attend CGs but CAN'T BE BOTHERED ....that's right CAN'T BE BOTHERED because they find the need to transport their ships around tedious. I have to wonder why such people, who seemingly can't be bothered to go through a little effort, even play this game at all given it's 1:1 scale representation of the galaxy....

 

[GaryII]

If somebody does not like 2.2 changes he can still play old way - go for all ships "manually", nobody forces to use new system.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

And you hit the nail on the head in one respect - this insta-transport aspect seems to have been requested (has it? I know ship transfer has, many times, but instant ship transfer?) by those who want to attend CGs but CAN'T BE BOTHERED ....that's right CAN'T BE BOTHERED because they find the need to transport their ships around tedious. I have to wonder why such people, who seemingly can't be bothered to go through a little effort, even play this game at all given it's 1:1 scale representation of the galaxy....

Because they feel it's time waste. It seems enough people having such opinion for FD to consider very short or instant window for ship transfer.

 

[Kicks]

If somebody does not like 2.2 changes he can still play old way - go for all ships "manually", nobody forces to use new system.

This point was brought up several times in the thread-nought - if you go find Slopey's response to it - you'll see how even if you self-impose the rule on yourself, you're still effectively affected by it's use by others.

 

[vermu]

I haven't read the whole thread but... Why we have cars? Because we get faster between two points than with cycle or by walking. Why we have teleportation in the future. Because we could get faster between two points than with car, or plane etc. There are always ppl who value time! So why can't the ppl how value time instant transfer their fleet. There are however ppl how prefer walking and cycling even they could afford fancy car. So all the people who prefer to do things in the old way can do that. Transfer is only an option. You don't have to use that. I just don't get why people are upset about this feature. There was Robigo and Sothis and some ppl took advantage of them while others thought it was too easy to get money. FD is just giving options for the players.

 

[orfeboy]

And this is what i fear. Our playerfaction has chosen a place a bit outside the bubble so that NOT everyone can interfere our BGS and because we WANTED to have a place we can call our home.
I just can't be happy about the idea that someone can just "beam" his FDL to a system to hunt players and 5 minutes later after a few jumps with a 60ly conda he "beams" his FDL to a place he normally would need 2 hrs for only to hunt players there.
Espacially trade ships like the T-9 are used to make a great impact on the BGS and they shouldn't be just beamed around the galaxy.

Agreed.

I couldn't care less about the realism aspect.

My concern is that it will break the game in so many places.

 

[Knightshark]

Good discussion. One of the things where ED stands out in my view is the sensation of scale. No other game manages to give you an impression how vast, empty, and beautiful space is. In ED you can experience first hand how "slow" 1c actually is on the scale of solar systems.
For these reasons every incentive to travel is positive, per se. However, the current system without ship/module transfer is just cumbersome. But it is not cumbersome because you need to invest time to travel, rather it is cumbersome because of the micromanaging it requires. You have to make a plan where to buy which ship and to fly to which station in order to switch, sell, and fly back. That's in my view the boring and tedious part i'd like to be removed. Now ship transfer does that. But if it will be instant i fear it will become it's own mini game, where you fit a "main ship" and insta-spawn the rest on demand (this has been discussed at length already).

So my point is: I don't mind the time ship transfer takes, it's the current mechanic that need to be addressed. I get the impression that FD assume that the time investment was the problem. That might be the case for other, but not for me.

 

[warbaby2]

I haven't read the whole thread but... Why we have cars? Because we get faster between two points than with cycle or by walking. Why we have teleportation in the future. Because we could get faster between two points than with car, or plane etc. There are always ppl who value time! So why can't the ppl how value time instant transfer their fleet. They are however ppl how prefer walking and cycling even they could afford fancy car. So all the people who prefer to do things in the old way can do that. Transfer is only an option. You don't have to use that. I just don't get why people are upset about this feature. There was Robigo and Sothis and some ppl took advantage of them while others thought it was too easy to get money. FD is just giving options for the players.

Then ED should have been a different game - it's as simple as that.

The size of the galaxy and the affort traveling takes in it are integral parts of the gameplay and the lore... sidestepping that is a total devaluation of the game, optional or not.

 

[StiTch]

If somebody does not like 2.2 changes he can still play old way - go for all ships "manually", nobody forces to use new system.

Always said this is a terrible argument. You don't just implement a laser with infinite damage on the basis that "if you don't want to use it don't". Once you're deliberately being inefficient knowing there's a more effective way but because the more effective way is boring asf, it's crap design. ​

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Then ED should have been a different game - it's as simple as that.

The size of the galaxy and the affort traveling takes in it are integral parts of the gameplay and the lore... sidestepping that is a total devaluation of the game, optional or not.

Its not sidestepping traveling. It is not sidestepping size of the galaxy. None of those claims are true.

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Always said this is a terrible argument. You don't just implement a laser with infinite damage on the basis that "if you don't want to use it don't". Once you're deliberately being inefficient knowing there's a more effective way but because the more effective way is boring asf, it's crap design. ​

Not sure what do you want - be more "efficient" or feel "immersed"? In any game, it is usually opposite. In ED using web is way to be efficient - but it takes out of game so much that I don't even bother.

You really can't have both.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Then ED should have been a different game - it's as simple as that.

The size of the galaxy and the affort traveling takes in it are integral parts of the gameplay and the lore... sidestepping that is a total devaluation of the game, optional or not.

Indeed - the game offers a 1:1 galaxy simulation - to do anything in the game we need to travel. It now seems that the view of the Developers has changed and that time it takes to travel is seen as a barrier to gameplay that will be able to be avoided (in some cases at least).

 

[GaryII]

you're still effectively affected by it's use by others.

Well this depends, if you care about others

Similarly I can say this about overpowered delivery missions (SOTHIS runs) I do not do then and I don't like them...
But what can I do.. FD probably whats to have possibility for people to make quick money to avoid slow grid...

 

[Kicks]

You don't have to use that. I just don't get why people are upset about this feature.

Ignoring the rest of your post as it has been covered many times why it may adversely affect a player who has chosen to use it and ignoring the part where you state you do not know why people are upset (lest they have the audacity to have a differing opinion or play-style), I'll try and answer it anyway.

Many players, in many games, enjoy the believability of the universes they are playing in. Some call it immersion. Immersion may not matter to some, but it does matter to many others.

They like the moment-to-moment gameplay inbetween the profit/loss and the combat. They see themselves as space pilots. They will fly by certain planets that are important in Elite lore and make note of it. They'll know what happened there.

Frontier have done their best to create a 1:1 re-creation of our galaxy. There's been a few decisions here and there where gameplay trumps realism.

You can argue that teleporting your ship trumps realism.

I'm not arguing either way, but I'm just stating some see that it won't improve game-play, goes against what Elite could/should be, and they're upset about it. And it's not just the "realism" aspect, it's the knock-on affects that Slopey put together in the thread-nought, that most likely will have an noticeable effect on the universe, and other players, regardless of whether you choose to use it.

Whether you have a horse in this race or not - don't blindly wonder why someone else is upset, even if you are not upset at the change.

Fly Safe, CMDR o7

 

[Robert Maynard]

Its not sidestepping traveling. It is not sidestepping size of the galaxy. None of those claims are true.

What else should the ability to switch to any ship at one's current dock without travelling to the dock where it was stored be called?

 

[Bomba Luigi]

I haven't read the whole thread but... Why we have cars? Because we get faster between two points than with cycle or by walking. Why we have teleportation in the future. Because we could get faster between two points than with car, or plane etc. There are always ppl who value time! So why can't the ppl how value time instant transfer their fleet. There are however ppl how prefer walking and cycling even they could afford fancy car. So all the people who prefer to do things in the old way can do that. Transfer is only an option. You don't have to use that. I just don't get why people are upset about this feature. There was Robigo and Sothis and some ppl took advantage of them while others thought it was too easy to get money. FD is just giving options for the players.

The ting tough is the game tells you telportation is not possible while it teleports stuff. and it has some strange rules not making sense, like bycicles only exist unless you wear red pants when riding them.

 

[vermu]

Because they feel it's time waste. It seems enough people having such opinion for FD to consider very short or instant window for ship transfer.

If you want to relax with elite and play one hour at the res site. What happens when you realize that you are in a wrong ship and manually it would take 40 mins to get in the right ship and to the right location. Your valuable one hour relaxation has shrunk to 10 mins. This is reality for those play one hour sessions. I have to skip my play sessions a lot cause I know that just getting to the right place with the right ship would take too long. When I have two hour sessions I can do that. I hope ppl would understand this dilemma.

 

[JosiahD]

Because they feel it's time waste. It seems enough people having such opinion for FD to consider very short or instant window for ship transfer.

Problem is it would, in my opinion, only be a time waste (ie to wait for ship arrival) for those who do not have the imagination to come up with other things to do while waiting. There seems to be some who think that when they click 'transfer ship' that they then need to simply sit there in the dock and wait (if we had a timer)? Like a limpet on a rock? Some of these people obviously lack the imagination to realize that they can still play the game while waiting for the ship transfer, whether it takes an hr, 2 hrs or 6. Run some local trade runs. Scout out the surrounding systems for trade opportunities. Go mine the nearest asteroid belt. Land on some nearby planets and drive around looking for engineer materials. Do some local bounty hunting. Problem is some of these people don't seem to want to actually play the game while waiting because, in my opinion, they're blinkered, fixating on one particular objective - I must have my big heavily armed ship here right this minute so I can go and smash some players or NPCs or what-have-you, or must have their heavy cargo vessel right this minute so they can immediately go take advantage of some CG (that will be there for several days anyway). And if they don't have the imagination to realize that there's a whole plethora of gameplay they can partake in while waiting a couple hrs for a ship to arrive, I still find myself wondering why they're playing THIS game.

 

[StiTch]

Not sure what do you want - be more "efficient" or feel "immersed"? In any game, it is usually opposite. In ED using web is way to be efficient - but it takes out of game so much that I don't even bother.

You really can't have both.

Er...my point is that the game should be immersive and NOT over the top efficient...?

But on a side note if you give people an OP tool, either they use it and ruin the gameplay or they are deliberately hindering their own progress. That's a design flaw, straight up.

 

[warbaby2]

Its not sidestepping traveling. It is not sidestepping size of the galaxy. None of those claims are true.

You think? Then riddle me this: What good is size if you don't experience it?

 

[YinYin]

What else should the ability to switch to any ship at one's current dock without travelling to the dock where it was stored be called?

Ship transfer and swapping ships. If you want to get to the dock where it was stored, you still have to travel yourself.