Should ship transfers have a time delay or not?

[bitstorm]

BALANCE

Aye gotta say it does seem odd.

On one hand folk are saying that adding a delay to make it realistic is the way to go, but at the same time saying the proposed change makes jump range for ships irrelevant.

I mean in all honesty having automated ship transfer at all makes jump range irrelevant, the balancing factor of jump range is the annoyance factor that you have to deal with yourself.

What puts me off fetching my Python from Fujihelm-45 (??) is the pain of travelling all the way out there and bring it back with its crappy jump range, if I can click a button and it take a week to arrive I'd have done it already. THe point being the balance is not in the time taken, it's in the PITA factor.

Which is why I was one of the 40 odd that voted for no ship transfer at all.

But, given ship transfer will be coming regardless, I don't think some of the arguments against instant hold up.

As I say in the end it's an argument of making gameplay more accessible vs an argument of realism and negative effects on gameplay.

But my feeling is a bunch of the negatives being touted would be there even if it wasn't instant and are actually an argument for not having ship transfer at all.

 

[kofeyh]

Yes, but in the end, the players who bought Elite Dangerous didn't buy it to play Battlefield. If they did, CQC would not be the epic fail it is.

Maybe a poll in the launcher would be useful ?

CQC was a failure because all of the typical functions that occur for arena type combat, namely tiered ranking, group management (so teams could book servers and skirmish) and pretty much every other "normal" part of arena type game play was absent.

You could have spent 5 minutes in CQC and be immediately placed with a very highly ranked pilot that will wipe the floor because they have had a ton of progression and all the cool toys and weapons. Not even MOBAs pull that sort of crap. CQC died because "it seemed like a good idea at the time" and exactly like PP had little done to improve it.

The developer has already decided. They might tweak the mechanics but it's already done. Incredulity from the masses at how very dare they throw mechanics under the bus is all well and good but doesn't really change anything. Yes sometimes very ill conceived mechanics will be amended. But I'm not sure this one is something the developer cares deeply enough about, to undo.

Ultimately, wanting to force realism into the process is basically saying "i don't like it, so make it convoluted so it's no longer used" you might as well just not have ship transfer in the game. Because for me? That was really the driving factor; I didn't like it so here let's use realism to make it complicated and thus not very useful. Which is pretty much using "mah realism" in the same way the developer has used "hand waving".

The developer is going to continue to do this. If folks think it's time to bail; I have to ask why didn't you drop out when materials were added? That was the very clear sign that there were no sacred aspects of ED. Pop some materials and suddenly the highly complicated FSD drive can up to double it's range for zero risk. Which begs the questions of why couldn't that be a permanent change?

Writing has been on the wall for a long time; people probably just didn't want to, or chose not to see it.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Maybe a poll in the launcher would be useful ?

damn you beat me to it..... i meant to put that in my post but i forgot.

yeah a poll when you log in that you have to click instant, realistic time, compromise time or do not care and cant log in till one option is selected is the only way to get a reflection of the actual active playerbase

 

[Ozram]

damn you beat me to it..... i meant to put that in my post but i forgot.

yeah a poll when you log in that you have to click instant, realistic time, compromise time or do not care and cant log in till one option is selected is the only way to get a reflection of the actual active playerbase

That's just about the only thing that might get me to log on after this fiasco.

 

[Winterwalker]

Got to have it, laws of Physics ..

ED sells the illusion of 3D space (well). Undermining that sell, can kill the illusion. Sure you might be able to come up with 3D printing lore, but that is intellectual and is not visceral .. 3D space is visceral, it is THE fundamental human experience.

We might all like more convenience, might like a Ferrari, and a toothbrush made of solid gold, but sometimes you can't have what you want. Feel strongly that this is one of those occasions.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

What puts me off fetching my Python from Fujihelm-45 (??) is the pain of travelling all the way out there and bring it back with its crappy jump range, if I can click a button and it take a week to arrive I'd have done it already. THe point being the balance is not in the time taken, it's in the PITA factor.

Which is why I was one of the 40 odd that voted for no ship transfer at all..

+1 it is also why my vote is to have ship tranfer (timed) but with a max range of maybe 300LY - actual jump distance travelled, so a ship with long range can be transferred further.

Some parts of the elite world SHOULD be a pita to get to with certain ships........ people can still get a vulture at the new bubble - eventually when they are manufactured out there** - its just they will have to buy one

**i knwo i am giving the game too much credit here for such complexity of ship yards and supply/demand

either they REALLY want the game to go a certain direction and feel this is the game they want to play, to hell with the Elite fans who backed a new elite game, or the game is struggling and its desperation OR - fingers crossed - they will come up with a plan B.

but we wont know till we get feedback. So dissapointed David Braben has not given his thoughts (yet???)

anyway i am really going to try and drop out of this now. its circular and the devs know how most of us feel....

 

[WR3ND]

damn you beat me to it..... i meant to put that in my post but i forgot.

yeah a poll when you log in that you have to click instant, realistic time, compromise time or do not care and cant log in till one option is selected is the only way to get a reflection of the actual active playerbase

Make sure to let me know about it on the forums just in case I don't happen to load the launcher... I've got somewhere around 19,500 LY ahead of me that seem kind of meaningless right now.

...

But anyway, I doubt they'd actually add a poll to the launch for this.

 

[bitstorm]

Make sure to let me know about it on the forums just in case I don't happen to load the launcher... I've got somewhere around 19,500 LY ahead of me that seem kind of meaningless right now.

Why is it meaningless?

You're in an Asp or an Anaconda, what difference does it make if you could transfer in another ship when you got there?

Even if you happened to be doing it in a Sidewinder, the change isn't due for two months.

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

That's an obvious concession to gameplay. Waiting while you are dead means you simply cannot play. Waiting for a ship to arrive does not hinder gameplay because you can still go about your business doing whatever you like. There is a clear difference here and I know you are smart enough to understand this.

It is not a difference. It'd the exact same thing. You also can't do whatever you like. If your combat ship is coming, and your current ship isn't good at combat, you have to wait for it to arrive to do anything but whatever your current ship is set up for.

Stop messing with my immersion.

 

[Ozram]

It is not a difference. It'd the exact same thing. You also can't do whatever you like. If your combat ship is coming, and your current ship isn't good at combat, you have to wait for it to arrive to do anything but whatever your current ship is set up for.

Stop messing with my immersion.

Are you joking?

Sometimes it's hard to tell here.

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

CQC was a failure because all of the typical functions that occur for arena type combat, namely tiered ranking, group management (so teams could book servers and skirmish) and pretty much every other "normal" part of arena type game play was absent.

You could have spent 5 minutes in CQC and be immediately placed with a very highly ranked pilot that will wipe the floor because they have had a ton of progression and all the cool toys and weapons. Not even MOBAs pull that sort of crap. CQC died because "it seemed like a good idea at the time" and exactly like PP had little done to improve it.

The developer has already decided. They might tweak the mechanics but it's already done. Incredulity from the masses at how very dare they throw mechanics under the bus is all well and good but doesn't really change anything. Yes sometimes very ill conceived mechanics will be amended. But I'm not sure this one is something the developer cares deeply enough about, to undo.

Ultimately, wanting to force realism into the process is basically saying "i don't like it, so make it convoluted so it's no longer used" you might as well just not have ship transfer in the game. Because for me? That was really the driving factor; I didn't like it so here let's use realism to make it complicated and thus not very useful. Which is pretty much using "mah realism" in the same way the developer has used "hand waving".

The developer is going to continue to do this. If folks think it's time to bail; I have to ask why didn't you drop out when materials were added? That was the very clear sign that there were no sacred aspects of ED. Pop some materials and suddenly the highly complicated FSD drive can up to double it's range for zero risk. Which begs the questions of why couldn't that be a permanent change?

Writing has been on the wall for a long time; people probably just didn't want to, or chose not to see it.

This. Realism has given way to gameplay for a long time now. It is making the game more accessible. Sandro said it all with "removing barriers to fun".

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Are you joking?

Sometimes it's hard to tell here.

It's a double standard.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

If given the choice between having your big combat ship there now, or having to wait forever for it to arrive to be able to use it, I'll show being able to use it. That's more fun.

 

[zimms]

This. Realism has given way to gameplay for a long time now. It is making the game more accessible. Sandro said it all with "removing barriers to fun".

Yes, let's completely change the game. Why travel at all? I should be able to just enter the name of the system I want to be. Jumping and SCing just reduces my fun time. Also, why do I have to grind rank or credits? I want to fly a Cutter now.

 

[Kyokushin]

This. Realism has given way to gameplay for a long time now. It is making the game more accessible. Sandro said it all with "removing barriers to fun".

With all respect to the Sandro - breaking a barriers giving much more fun, satisfaction, pleasure, and gameplay, than playing without them. Finances are the big barrier to the most of players. Maybe this also should be removed?

 

[WR3ND]

[weird]

Why is it meaningless?

You're in an Asp or an Anaconda, what difference does it make if you could transfer in another ship when you got there?

Even if you happened to be doing it in a Sidewinder, the change isn't due for two months.

Not enough wind in the sails for some reason. Feels like my reasons for playing are being washed away out from under me.

This isn't a pity party though, so maybe a moot point, and I may feel differently later about it too. Might just stick my head in the sand in solo and define aspects of the game I don't care for as cheating.

 

[Yaffle]

Aye gotta say it does seem odd.

On one hand folk are saying that adding a delay to make it realistic is the way to go, but at the same time saying the proposed change makes jump range for ships irrelevant.

I mean in all honesty having automated ship transfer at all makes jump range irrelevant, the balancing factor of jump range is the annoyance factor that you have to deal with yourself.

What puts me off fetching my Python from Fujihelm-45 (??) is the pain of travelling all the way out there and bring it back with its crappy jump range, if I can click a button and it take a week to arrive I'd have done it already. THe point being the balance is not in the time taken, it's in the PITA factor.

Which is why I was one of the 40 odd that voted for no ship transfer at all.

But, given ship transfer will be coming regardless, I don't think some of the arguments against instant hold up.

As I say in the end it's an argument of making gameplay more accessible vs an argument of realism and negative effects on gameplay.

But my feeling is a bunch of the negatives being touted would be there even if it wasn't instant and are actually an argument for not having ship transfer at all.

An interesting viewpoint.

I think the argument about all of this should have been framed differently.

Firstly there is one to be won over 'do we think ship transfer adds anything to the game?'
If the answer is 'yes'
'Do we think it detracts from the game?'
If the answer is yes
'Is that addition greater than the detraction?'
If the answer is yes
'What limitations should we put on it?'

FD seems to have answered the first, then skipped to the end and put 'none'. There's a really interesting discussion to be had around the whole thing, and what mechanics would give the best gameplay opportunities, which would need to be balanced with feasibility of coding. Going for the highly polarising 'INSTANT' versus 'we think this adds a lot, so let's have some form of actual mechanic for it' has caused the issue. It would seem, and we have no clear message from FD on this, that the direction of the game is simply to maximise PvP time available, and anything else that gets in the way of that has to be circumvented. It may be that 'open' is sparsely populated, and the team is trying to force players to use it and play together more. If that's the case, then I fear this will have the opposite effect. Taking Jaques, once teleport is in you'll have every lulznoobkiller in the game over there to seal-club fragile exploration vessels as they arrive, because with that sort of PvP who needs a challenge. Hence a move to PG/solo to avoid it. Anyone who sees the game as some form of coherent thing will go PG/solo where the mechanic can be ignored (there are several who have posted that is a likely move for them) reducing the PvP potential further.

Anyhow, I am rambling again, but I really worry this has not been thought through. The interview seems to back that up, there's little reasoning behind it other than it speeds up accessibility to PvP. There has been no thought about the removal of thinking, potential exploits, the reduction in the number of ships, the now useless nature of jump ranges, all of that dismissed with 'we think it's better' without any real justification other than 'you get to shoot stuff faster now.' The way that Jaques' status as a special thing is under threat seems to merit little more than a shrug and, in essence, 'good, there's not enough PvP there at the moment, and that's the fun we want you all to have.' Couple that to the 'it's the direction we want the game to go' which I find most sinister about this and I too think 'what's the point?' when I go to open the game. I wish FD well with the direction, I really do. It will interesting to see how the player demographic shifts as the game follows the path they wish to go with it, which sadly appears to be generic MMO using a 1:1 scale galaxy as a glorified, but very pretty, lobby.

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

Yes, let's completely change the game. Why travel at all? I should be able to just enter the name of the system I want to be. Jumping and SCing just reduces my fun time. Also, why do I have to grind rank or credits? I want to fly a Cutter now.

Hyperbole. Just like this entire argument. It's not fun waiting for your ship. If I want to do combat now, they have given me the option to do so. I would rather have that than wait an arbitrary amount of time.

Again. The realism argument is a double standard.

 

[Kyokushin]

It's not fun waiting for your ship. If I want to do combat now, they have given me the option to do so.

If you want to do combat now, then do it in ship what you are now. Or play CQC.

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

If you want to do combat now, then do it in ship what you are now.

If that's an exploration ship, that would be difficult. I want to use my modified combat ship.

CQC. Lol.

 

[Kizbot]

I would be totally happy if the transfer did take a 1:1 delay waiting for a npc to fly it to me. The npc doesn't get bored/need food/have real life so even if we were talking about Jacques station it would still only take like a day, I mean what's the rush. The feature that should have been added is a ship sending feature. It would only work for systems that are explored, but you could send the ship to a station and it would be waiting for you when you get there. Makes sense it would get there first because as we already establish that npc doesn't take a break.

 

[Kyokushin]

If that's an exploration ship, that would be difficult. I want to use my modified combat ship.

Then explore in the combat ship. You will be ready for combat 'now'.