The Galaxy - Is its size now considered to be a barrier to gameplay by the Developers?

[GraXXoR]

If transfers mean 3d printing a new ship across the galaxy, what the hell is the point? Why is a transfer better than just remotely selling your old ship and buying a new one at the new location? Just make a template/build saving system and we can swap multiple parts instantly in and out depending on the situation. Limited module availability should then be done away with. A much better way than trying to concoct some complicated way of explaining instant magic in the lore.

RNGineer mods?

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You're not supposed to ask questions that challenge the consistency of ED !

Next someone is going to say that the Engineers are pathetic as the insurance brokers and now these transporter people can replicate your ship in it's exact configuration but wanting an Engineer to duplicate an existing mod is a no no.

Honestly, you couldn't make this up ... it's fantastic. *wipes tear from eye and tries to stifle laughter*

Watching the Devs in this game shuffle their lore around is like watching Meet the Fockers with Ben Stiller digging himself in deeper and deeper each time he comes up with something to cover up something he said earlier...


Ladies and Gentlemen, FDEV have now officially reached "milking the cat".

 

[Marak]

I've read the answers and I'm not happy.

• 3-D printing is just a bad excuse for me. Especially straight after the Engineers - that just doesn't fly. Who would want their own private modifications duplicated? I can appreciate the idea that some stuff is cheaper to send via ship so manual ferrying trade isn't damaged by 3-D printing, but if the printing is so cheap, wouldn't it be the other way round? Either way, do I want that rust bucket I love destroyed one end and rebuilt from god-knows what the other? I could see this being done for prefab material for colonies, but freelance owned machines? No, as someone said, better to have no explanation than go down a path that isn't very "frontier" for frontier.
• Following on from that the insta-transport does devalue ships. It affects the game on so many levels in Open, but in Solo, you no longer look for missions that fit your status, you just swap your ship to fit the mission. I think people would prefer bases if that was the case, which I think was why people wanted ship moving - so they could take a dock as a base for a while to work from with their ships, not to have their ships "printed up wherever they go". Equally you are far less likely to travel. If your other ship is a system a way, you're more likely to call it up than go get it - which is travel... the point of Elite... which leads me to the biggest issue (for me)
• Your ship feels like an asset number. It's not in Lave system waiting to be used or ferried, it's an asset number you can call up whenever you need it for a nominal fee. It might as well be in your backpack. The ship loses not just its worth as a point of use, but in itself it becomes just a piece of game code with no illusion of immersion to even attempt to mask it.

People have offered far more salient issues about FSD, griefing etc, but those really stick in my craw. Ships become worth far less in a game where ships are the draw.

Thanks for the feedback Michael, I do think however these core player-side issues will still remain and as you can see are severely damaging the game for a lot of players. This isn't a disgruntled issue about a game mechanic, like Engineers brought, this is an issue which people feel strong breaks their immersion within the world. If there was even a 10-14 minute wait that would at least give the Sign of in-world machinations. I think that's really all it needs.

Yes many outside the forums will jump for joy, but as with anything, if you give a big reward - especially in video games you risk the reward devaluing the object. People prize what they work hard for. Those who think this is great now, might find in practice their ships, and thus their attachment to Elite being far less peripheral (in my opinion). I really urge you guys to consider this, not as some hardcore resistence to a move that will be popular, but people with player-side strong investment and understanding of the game really trying to show how this will damage the game for them and quite likely for others.

A middle-ground could surely be found. I appreciate that you want to cater for all those pro this, and there will be many, but your forums are awash with loyal consumers who really, really, really find this game breaking. A middleground should surely only be fair that doesn't take too much from either groups?

Couldn't agree more. What he said ^^

+1

 

[Boomer Kay]

Completely get what you are saying Marc, it is a risk free way to transfer your fleet. That wasn't my point, some are going on about immersion, yet happy to get a brand new fully kitted replacement ship instantly sent to their last destination, even if that destination only stocks a sidewinder and a bunch of E grade modules.

Take Jaques for example, I don't hear people complaining about immersion when Jacques instantly teleports there brand new ship that isn't even stocked at his station.

The immersion issues are so easy to fix, it starts hurting my faith in humanity that they need to be brought up over and over.

That entire "shipyard" is just some text. Your ship could be "anywhere", until you switch into it's cockpit (been working with ERP and logistic software most of my professional life .. just because the system tells you something is in stock never has to mean it's actually there).
Click "get ship" button - log out - switch into your teleported ship the next time you play. Delay .. anything from 3 minute potty break to 3 month vacation.

 

[GraXXoR]

So, if I'm reading this right, your problem with the application of 1200 year advanced-beyond-today 3D printing as the explanation for instant ship retrieval XXXX Ly from the source is really only there because they're dropping it now and didn't drop it 2 years ago as in-game lore? 3D Printing, or Additive Manufacturing (as it's referred to on the industrial side of the house) is only getting bigger and bigger as the years go on. Not being able to wrap your head around it because it's not "good enough" for the game is a personal choice, not a game coherence issue.

RNGineer mods.... sigh. It's inconsistency and suddenly changing the premise of the game that people have issue with more than the actual technology. If it's used to dupe a mod, why can't you duplicate a RNGineered product by itself?

Wait, don't tell me, licencing?

 

[Privata]

Errr both Frontier and FFE had time compression .. so they did. And the original was so ahead of its time it didn't really matter.

We dont know how this will change the game, but as 2.2 is bringing so many other new things in anyway, I don't think it really matters at this point.

I neither like or dislike the feature as I know I can just ignore it if I want.

The 'issue' is squarely in your head that you cant get over. Its like when you are cheated on by a girlfriend or lover. I understand, but at some point you need to move on from this. None if us are getting the game we backed, its not like you are alone on that. But as stated you (and others) need to get past this.

If it were being forced on you I would understand, but simply isnt.

Time compression was good , as it was part of the lore.

For to like the system this is whats needed (one of these)

-The ship is rebuild at the shipyard , however you loose wear and tear as well as engineer modules
-The ship is rebuild at the shipyard , however you loose wear and tear but dont loose your engineer modules
-You pay for the ship , the more you pay the faster it is. (FDs original idea)
-You order your ships from the shipyard they are currently in.
-The ships can go to any station for you but you must have a NPC hired to do it (make more use of the new NPCs)

You dont see this as important , but I do.
If you dont think it changes the ship ballance , then thats fine. if you dont think it makes the universe feel small , then good on you , if you dont think it kills the need for multiroles and long range fighters , then I wish I was you in this case.
But thats not all it does , it removes the powerplay ballance based on distance.

Yes you can currently get any ship anywhere in the galaxy , but it takes more time - thats gameplay , its not epic gameplay but is gameplay.

To me and others , this new cheat like system removes the ''chess like'' mini game of planing your trips and placing your ships in different areas.

Now , will I ingore this system if its in game? no. because it will give me an upper hand in the BGS.
I think FDs B option is beter than this.

If you dont mind this feature , why tell those who do hate it to just let it go? the forums are here to talk about this sort of stuff. and out of all the nerfs to depth and downgrades this is the worst.

This situation is like you telling me to eat something I dont like , because you dont mind it.

Is this changing my real life? no
Is it changing my enjoyment of elite currently? partialy , but I reserve final judgement for beta
Could it help the game? very unlikely , tools that can skip parts of gameplay are bad IMO
Could it ruin ship ballance? not fully , but it wont help... in fact I say that if this happens all ships need a brand new ballance pass

If they explain it with lore , I will still hate it , but I will shut up about it... however the lore reason needs to make sense both in a gameplay way and an economical way (no 3d printing , because you can tell that ships in elite are not 3D printed beyond the fighters)

 

[GraXXoR]

I can't say I'm impressed with FDs response re all of this. They are digging their heels in over what is obviously a very unpopular solution to the problem. As much as we need a ship transfer system of some variety I can't help but think this is a cheap and dirty way to do it. The devil is in the detail of course, the impact of which won't be felt in beta but later on, and I forsee unintended consequences.

I think one of the main issues here is that it goes again any rational sense of suspension of disbelief. Rather than increase the number of ships we see out and about I think its going to effectily further remove players from the game world with the Asp E becoming the defacto getting about ship and a few other ship achetypes, used here and tehre. You can kiss goodbye to seeing much of the ship variety we have now.

Whilst I can understand the reasoning behind it, its cheap to implement and easy to test, its actually doing us out of a more nuanced gamet of gameplay as is the insta module transfer.. We could be having to haul our modules about, have them being stolen or destroyed in transit, and actually plan ahead to where we may want ships to be.

What is propsed by the devs is in my view the easiest and quickest (laziest) implementation there could be. Another example of which is the way we are serially interdicted by AI based upon our rank and ship rather than a system which is far deeper and believable.

Some of the consequences are definitely foreseen. A number of long time players are going to ragequit if this printing malarkey sees the light of day...
Why can't I just purchase an A grade module using the "internet" and have it printed at the station of choice.      travelling the bubble in search of modules. Why can't the RNGineer print my laser, mod it and me reprint it at my end and fit it in my ship? Why should I have to travel to him or her?
Why can't I go to a station when slaves sell at 5000CpT and print a load of slaves from other stations where they cost less?

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I can't write as eloquently as many cmdrs have since it was announced why instant ship transfer is a bad idea but I can say why for me it seems so wrong.
I have been solely concentrating on upgrading my corvette and my asp since the release of engineer's and have throughly enjoyed unlocking all the engineer's and ranking them all up to level five.
My issue with instant ship transfer is I could now fit my fas or my I courier with a ten ton cargo bay and instantly transport them to the relevant system stick a rank five mod in them and jump back I'm asp and swap again at the next engineer and would have all my ships modded up to maximum with minimum fuss.
This may sound like a good thing but the sense of accomplishment I felt at making my corvette and my asp unlike any other would not be there as it's much too easy and I would have a fleet of ships all with rank five mods in no time .

It seems your set on this feature going ahead FD but please try and see the can of worms that you are about to open.

Think yourself lucky, I started on a circumnavigation of the Galaxy just before Engieers dropped. I've seen people on EDIscovery star map buzzing past me to Beagle and back before I even got half way. I could have saved 5000 jumps... lol.

 

[Trueno33]

Thanks again for answering questions from the community, Michael.

Concerning the ship transfer, I don't think it's a small QoL feature. In contrary, I think if one considers all the gameplay ramifications such a feature brings, it will have a larger impact on peoples experience than ship launched fighters or any other feature coming in 2.2. Wouldn't such a big impact feature warrant more development time and resources put into it?

Yes please, I don't mind waiting. Having a proper game better than some cheap, easy, lazy mechanic?

 

[Cosmos]

You know I think its fair to say that anyone who bothers posting here or takes time to be invovled with the game is heavily invested in it. Whilst my own grumbles are likely different to those of others, and even shared by many folks I know, and contested by my adversaries, we all sort of put up with things we don't like or would like to see different. I even put up with things that really irk me but when it comes to this issue I don't see anything good coming of it and its really turning me off the game. If Frontier don't take note of the overwhelming sentiment folks have expressed I can only see this issue becoming a tipping point.

Micheal.. Give it up, nothing wrong with saying, aight we will reconsider.. I'll even go so far to say its worth putting up with the present situ until ship and module transfer and storage can be done properly..

One of the things I didn't remark upon about Lavecon was when Sandro responded about Engineers and said 'we got it wrong'. Took some balls to say that and when he did so he quietly gained rep with this Commander.

 

[GraXXoR]

That's where time-consuming ship transfers would make your life easier: initiate the transfer, do anything you like with your current ship while your other ship is being delivered and then pick up said delivered ship at its destination without having to waste a single minute with the transport yourself.

Exactly. +rep. I just really don't get why this isn't the way it's done...

. then you get the blubberers.... but but I want to do the CG NAO.

Well CGs are scheduled. Just look on the day before the CG when the news goes live... select your 3LY jump range MIN/MAXed FDL and have that shipped there IN ADVANCE. Jayzus.

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Sorry I just don't get why there is any form of economy that involves hauling any form of machinery or advanced technology around as a commodity if it can just be printed by any outpost or facility. Resorting to 'licensing' as an explanation is unsatisfactory, because the technology is so useful (and supposedly ubiquitous), everybody and their dog would be clamouring for licenses, or competitors would be filling the market with other licenses that make roughly the same thing (can't license a Hoover? I bet Dyson would sell you one!) or they would be pirated left right and centre.

Worms. Can. Of.

Alien Isolation's vibe worked because it kind of stuck to the '70s retro sci-fi feel of the film. Elite's fiction worked better sticking to its '80s roots.

It's obvious, the licensing documents for each commodity weigh one tonne per unit. That is why one "tonne" of gold is so cheap. It's not a tonne of gold but a single unit.... We are merely shipping the documents to the end station where the documents are signed by the authorities and the licence to print one unit of said commodity is issued.

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Or, you could just not use ship transfer, and I'll decide what I want to spend my limited amount of time doing what I'd like with the help of the ship transfer mechanic.

Oh you'd like that wouldn't you, benefitting your PP faction while your competitors refuse to use the broken asp mechanic...

 

[GraXXoR]

License is a thing, you can't 3DPrint your ship as you don't have a license to reproduce it, you can't make your own Crysler cause the project is covered by copyright and IP laws, Only Crysler factories can produce that car, not your mechanic who can well 3dprint parts to repair it but not the car itself

Can your mechanic also perfectly copy experimental effects so outrageously difficult to produce that the engineer himself who created the magic effect can't even duplicate it?

 

[Jukelo]

Kinda funny when you think about it, I could fly my Cutter to any remote port in the galaxy (limited shipyard/outfitting supply) Crash half a billion credits worth of engineered Cutter whilst undocking from this end of nowhere port, I'll instantly get supplied with a brand new fully modded Cutter.

Nobody seems to question that game mechanic

Is this a challenge?

 

[Sans Daring]

Completely get what you are saying Marc, it is a risk free way to transfer your fleet. That wasn't my point, some are going on about immersion, yet happy to get a brand new fully kitted replacement ship instantly sent to their last destination, even if that destination only stocks a sidewinder and a bunch of E grade modules.

That's because immersion isn't a constant. It depends on the moment, it depends on the situation. It ultimately depends on the person to some degree. We can try rationalising it and thereby compartmentalising it, and thus comparing it, but it doesn't matter. Some stuff breaks the spell, other stuff doesn't.

There is usually a reason. I don't think anyone loves the idea you offer. As an ideal, we'd love to see something a little more on those grounds. The reason it doesn't break the immersion is because as a player, you've been knocked out of the world with a death/destroyed ship. Whether you imagine an escape pod, or just accept the game mechanic, the immersion is not as much an issue because you're all ready been drawn away from the game.

But even there, there's a rebuy screen - and that is a small nod to immersion. It's an acknowledgement that yes, this is all going to get a bit gamey - as you rightly point out - but the insurance gives that little tickle of realism where there isn't room for much more. It's why no one complains.

A ship that's light years away suddenly appearing in your station dock however... there's no immersion nods at all. It's pure and simple game mechanics in the middle of a breathing world and at odds with all other attempts to keep that balance. It just doesn't fit, and its bare bones simply because it is a pure game tool, it has no in-world role, and that I think is why it upsets people.

While some would be annoyed, a small hint at the world would quell it for most. I don't think it needs much, just as refuelling just needs the forced docking, or a death requires a rebuy screen. We know its a game, we just need something less, brutal and crass I guess.

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

If I had to come up with a lore explanation I'd either somehow tie it to quantum entanglement or explain that in order to create an exact copy of the object molecule by molecule in order to keep modifications intact require much more than a scan, it has to be broken down as well. The materials aren't destroyed so much as recycled for other ship building.

still, no reason you couldn't make two or more copies of the same ship after that (licensing and IP rights could make that illegal, though)

As stated above I don't like the printing transfer idea, but that's how I'd explain it if I had to.

The only effective way to explain it is to not even try. Or explain it on the basis of magic:

Clarke's third law
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

We have other 'pure magic' elements added to the game recently: the +99 bag of holding that holds all those materials, and bits of dead ships, for example. I have never seen any attempt to give a lore explanation of that, I suspect because it is beyond anyone to come up with one that is even slightly convincing (there's a challenge for you).

Of course, the fact that it is so obviously magic, is one of the reasons many people do not like it. One advantage of a transfer that takes time is that it is easy to come up with several perfectly plausible lumps of lore to explain it. My preference, as FD once said there's was, is to only fall back on magic when you absolutely have to. If you accept that materials, engineering and synchronising is good to have in the game (I know many still hate the Engineers), then 'magic' is a good enough explanation. For me, at least, instant transfer is nowhere near sufficiently beneficial to have to fall back on magic.

 

[Trueno33]

You know I think its fair to say that anyone who bothers posting here or takes time to be invovled with the game is heavily invested in it. Whilst my own grumbles are likely different to those of others, and even shared by many folks I know, and contested by my adversaries, we all sort of put up with things we don't like or would like to see different. I even put up with things that really irk me but when it comes to this issue I don't see anything good coming of it and its really turning me off the game. If Frontier don't take note of the overwhelming sentiment folks have expressed I can only see this issue becoming a tipping point.

Micheal.. Give it up, nothing wrong with saying, aight we will reconsider.. I'll even go so far to say its worth putting up with the present situ until ship and module transfer and storage can be done properly..

One of the things I didn't remark upon about Lavecon was when Sandro responded about Engineers and said 'we got it wrong'. Took some balls to say that and when he did so he quietly gained rep with this Commander.

Many times I have said this in the previous days. Personally this new mechanic can make me leave the game. This breaks my heart cause I've been in love with this game for almost two years.

Although I started playing since launch day I only bought my first conda one month ago. I've never been in a hurry. I was impressed with how heavy and big it felt. THAT IS MAGIC! giving you the feeling that you are driving a behemoth when using the same joystick that made the viper feel so nimble...

Now they are going to include those plilots for hiring. Beautiful idea. Why cant one of them bring me my ship when I need it? Are they going to be simply cannonfodder to be thrown at npcs? Why dont give them the chance to do something else, something that makes sense in ED's universe?

I seriously think that the devs have lost touch with reality if they cant see that this instamagic thing is going to make the game uglier, cheaper. What a waste!! That's why we are all being so pasionate about this. Because this is such a beautiful game.

Of all the reasons that mr. Brookes exposed, the only one that made sense to me was the one about development time and budget iirc. Keep with us FD, I bet most of us woulnt mind a delay

But do it right, please

 

[Oguska]

Forums gonna rock when this 2.2 hits with this instant ship transfer feature.

Bet my two cents on it, shame i must wait to see the chaos.

 

[TankMaster]

Here's a tip for all you people that do want instant ship transfers.

Go and do something else for a period of time. Bounty hunt, do an engineer upgrade, boil the kettle.

Don't ruin it for the rest of us.

The difference here being that your way forces all players to what you want, having instant transfer gives any who want the choice of waiting before getting into their ship.

Really, people are acting as if FD put a gun to their heads that forces them all to use instant transfer whether they like it or not, if you don't like it then go do the shuttle run or wait for a while, geez.

 

[sutex]

We will be given the ability to transfer any of our ships to our current dock in 2.2 - there will be no delay in this transfer as the Developers have done some testing and any delay at all was considered to be too much of an impediment to gameplay.

In the recent Gamescom streams a recurring theme was that of "lowering the barriers to gameplay".

It would appear that travelling back to the location of a stored ship to fetch it back to one's location takes too much time and is therefore a barrier to gameplay that is unacceptable in the eyes of the Developers (and a large number of players, of course).

In a game where we have been given, to the best of the abilities of the Developers, a 1:1 interpretation of the our galaxy - with hundreds of billions of stars it seems that the size of the galaxy itself would now appear to be a problem to solve in the eyes of the Developers.

It will be interesting to see what further concessions to convenience we are given in future releases that will facilitate the multi-player aspect of the game.

SPACE is big really BIG... not anymore !!! .. I agree it seems, or just will be soon , that the Instant Popcorn Crowd in FDevs and the player base , find traversing the Universe to be a hindrance to be able to play a SPACE GAME doh!

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

I have eyes and am reading what others are saying on the issue. I've never actually seen so many people so united over one issue about the game; that FDs insta teleport solution is a bad idea. I've oddly discovered I have common ground with people I ordinarily always disagree with.

Ditto

 

[Theodrid]

I have eyes and am reading what others are saying on the issue. I've never actually seen so many people so united over one issue about the game; that FDs insta teleport solution is a bad idea. I've oddly discovered I have common ground with people I ordinarily always disagree with.

Amen Cosmos, amen.

 

[Kestril]

Wow! 62 pages already.

There's nothing that hasn't been addressed in the original thread. But I do like Fdev's reasoning for this change. All that's left to do is wait until beta.

Keep it up fdev [up]