The Galaxy - Is its size now considered to be a barrier to gameplay by the Developers?
- Thread starter Robert Maynard
- Start date
Ugh and NPCs with HEALTH!? Waste of time. Just let me insta kill them.
The saying of David is obsolete ! " It will come when it will be ready ". The soul of the game is reached but also the soul of David
Last edited:
First let me say thank you FDev for adding ship transfer.
.
I am in the delay camp but if it has to be instant transfer how about factoring in the jump range of the ship to be transferred in to the transfer cost? Hopefully that would reduce the number of people building combat ships with effectively no FSD, I.e. the smallest one they can fit. This is my concern about the mechanic as it stands, I.e. part of a combat ship build will now be to reduce the FSD to as small as possible as they no longer need one as the ships are moved using the ship transfer system.
.
I am in the delay camp but if it has to be instant transfer how about factoring in the jump range of the ship to be transferred in to the transfer cost? Hopefully that would reduce the number of people building combat ships with effectively no FSD, I.e. the smallest one they can fit. This is my concern about the mechanic as it stands, I.e. part of a combat ship build will now be to reduce the FSD to as small as possible as they no longer need one as the ships are moved using the ship transfer system.
My point exactly, sometimes delays are a good thing, they add a sense that something is happening; something to charge up ready for use, a distance to be travelled or an enemy vanquished. Having a small delay still makes moving ships much more convenient than the current system but maintains a sense of scale within the universe (something that was touted when the game was kickstartered). And while you wait it isn't like you can't be doing something, run a trade route if you brought a trader type ship, or run some missions. Either way you are still earning money/reputation/prestige etc and your ship will arrive in due course.
Personally I would love for the ship to drop out of SC at the station and you could watch it fly in and land. But that is unnecessary for the point of the addition. Looks cool but adds little to the function lol
Yaffle
Volunteer Moderator
There's a few issues.
Why can't I duplicate my ship, why do I have to destroy the original?
Why can engineered modules on my ship be duplicated by a shipyard remote from my ship, but the engineer is unaware of this technology to duplicate a good roll?
Why do we need to haul cargo other than <raw goo> for additive printing?
Why don't all shipyards sell all ships and all outfitters sell all items?
Why is outfitting tech level dependent, when they can print it anyway?
There is no need for FD to put enormous De Lacy ship manufacturing sites in game now, there would be none.
Will it duplicate damage, or do I get a new <thing>? Both options are troublesome
So other than rendering engineers pointless, trading pointless, multiple ship ownership pointless, repair stations pointless, shipyards pointless it's a great solution.
Also, this means ship naming has just been canned as well, there's no point as it's no longer the same ship. Which I guess is good as its less things FD has to dedicate any coding resource to.
I think in a space game like Elite travelling the Galaxy should be an important part of the gameplay. Gameplay should not be confined to just the places you travel to. The game should try to make travelling into an adventure. Often quite boring (space is like that), sometimes surprising or intriguing (was that an alien?), sometimes dangerous (a black hole, assassins, blockades), etc.
.
To me it seems the dev team is thinking about gameplay in Elite too much as jumping from instance to instance with each instance running a randomly chosen minigame upon arrival of the player(s). Instead of minimising travelling in the game a higher level of scenarios is needed that connect the jumps into adventures. When you're running a mission interactions between the mission scenario and the developing higher-level adventure would be a step towards the much desired 'deeper gameplay'.
.
BTW: Such a setup would also offer scifi writers like drew much better facilities than CGs to run interactive stories in the Galaxy.
Goose4291
Banned
Not going to happen.
We'd need group management tools (such as disabling pvp in your group), and those don't seem to be on the list despite people clamouring for them for months.
Do these ideas help with any of those problems?
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...opers/page65?p=4412296&viewfull=1#post4412296
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
It may have - however, as you have acknowledged, this QoL improvement does not just improve QoL - it affects many aspects of the game:
My question is why, once it was discovered that the change will affect more than just QoL, was the priority / budget / schedule for the feature not re-assessed?
For what has proven to be such a contentious feature, I would hope that a review will take place before commiting to implementation in the live game - as you have also commented previously that there are aspects of the game that you would have liked to change (something relating to Exploration related modules, if I remember correctly) - if ship transfer is implemented as instant then I doubt that you will ever be able to introduce a delay, that ship will have sailed.
Last edited:
Sorry, but not really. I know you're really trying hard (I've caught the part about being a writer) and I know this 3D printing news must have come down like a hammer for you, but there's just so much not making sense to me trying to explain this thing which was just taken out of a hat.
Even if energy is dead cheap in this universe, I still don't see how it makes sense destroying something perfectly functional just because it's owner has printed himself a copy of it somewhere else. The destruction / creation costs should be, according to Michael, quite high (which is why the technology is only used in spaceship manufacturing and not everywhere). On the other hand, we are led to believe that there are still poor people in this universe.
Why would it make sense to spend some hundred thousand credits for anyone else but the player (who is filthy rich), to use this technology when there are people willing to work for much less to transport the ship the old fashioned way. It's a perfectly functioning ship.
It just shows that there are in fact only players in this universe, and the population of the game is actually just imaginary NPCs.
Last edited:
Yaffle
Volunteer Moderator
Not really, especially with the engineered modules, why would they want me to fetch sealing wax and string for a gambling turn? I'd just point and say 'I want that one please, you made it, you own the IP, therefore print me one.'
'Oh, no sir, I have to put you through the slot machine process because...'
Adding layers of contorted post-event justification doesn't really help. I've reached a point of just accepting this, whether it be via teleport or unrealistic 3D printing. The problem is, for me, is that it crosses a mental line from the game having some form of context for my actions, thereby giving my actions a reason to be, into having no context at all, therefore my actions have no reason to be, therefore I don't see the point of the game. It seems extreme, but for me it's just one piece of in-universe contradiction too many.
In short - we've moved from things having context to a series of cookie-cut-out-meta-du-jour-pvp-rooms-in-space rather than a series of events that were subtly different due to their location/background etc. For me it's lifting the veil and saying 'look, it's just a database! Rather than you doing a thing, you may as well input numbers on to it!' At one level I knew that all along, now it's actually being advertised to me.
The thing it, Elite to me as always had a grounding in plausibility. Sure, some sacrifice to plausibility is needed for gameplay reasons (like Hyperdrive, and nerfed yaw) but on the whole these add to the experience. Instant transfers is not one of these cases, IMHO.
- Firstly, the Lore reason, 3d printing of a unique ship, complete with custom Bobbleheads, skins, engineered mods, and ship kits, goes against the idea that reasources are rare and need transporting. If I can print a whole ship, why do I need to fly all the way across the bubbles to buy Magnetic Emitter Coils? Why can I just print them? See, the lore reason for this undermines the whole background economy. Why are CG a thing, to bring materials to a station to expand it, or build a settlement, or new capital ship, when myself and my wing can Magic our fleet of Annaconda's and Corvettes in an instant. :S
-Secondly, the addition detracts from the idea that my ship is unique. Serenity, Enterprise, Rocinante, The Falcon, and my modded FDL are all unique ships, one of a kind, and making their way (as characters in their own right) through their respective universes. Except, now my FLD isn't, cos I'll abandon it in some dock somewhere and print off a duplicate, which I'll probably also discard at some point.....
My Ship is no longer special, and unique, it's disposable. [sad]
-Thirdly, why would a ship cost 55 million to buy, a good few million to repair, but a few grand to print again? This further detracts from the elite universe as a plausible place.
-Lastly, the idea of balancing this mechanic with cost will detract from it's use. If I fly to station that offers a mission that requires me to have 100 units of cargo space and pays 1Mcr, but it cost me 500kcr to teleport my type 6 there... then I may as well not bother, and take the bounty hunting mission that pays 600Kcr.
I get that if there's a time delay between moving a ship, then that 1Mcr mission might be gone, but I always thought that moving ships around should be more about setting down in a new system for a while and helping the locals, rather than flying around with a fleet in your pocket. [where is it].
- Firstly, the Lore reason, 3d printing of a unique ship, complete with custom Bobbleheads, skins, engineered mods, and ship kits, goes against the idea that reasources are rare and need transporting. If I can print a whole ship, why do I need to fly all the way across the bubbles to buy Magnetic Emitter Coils? Why can I just print them? See, the lore reason for this undermines the whole background economy. Why are CG a thing, to bring materials to a station to expand it, or build a settlement, or new capital ship, when myself and my wing can Magic our fleet of Annaconda's and Corvettes in an instant. :S
-Secondly, the addition detracts from the idea that my ship is unique. Serenity, Enterprise, Rocinante, The Falcon, and my modded FDL are all unique ships, one of a kind, and making their way (as characters in their own right) through their respective universes. Except, now my FLD isn't, cos I'll abandon it in some dock somewhere and print off a duplicate, which I'll probably also discard at some point.....
My Ship is no longer special, and unique, it's disposable. [sad]
-Thirdly, why would a ship cost 55 million to buy, a good few million to repair, but a few grand to print again? This further detracts from the elite universe as a plausible place.
-Lastly, the idea of balancing this mechanic with cost will detract from it's use. If I fly to station that offers a mission that requires me to have 100 units of cargo space and pays 1Mcr, but it cost me 500kcr to teleport my type 6 there... then I may as well not bother, and take the bounty hunting mission that pays 600Kcr.
I get that if there's a time delay between moving a ship, then that 1Mcr mission might be gone, but I always thought that moving ships around should be more about setting down in a new system for a while and helping the locals, rather than flying around with a fleet in your pocket. [where is it].
Last edited:
What is the real reason for this ? I mean why do it at all ? instantly that is.
Admittedly I don't frequent these boards as much as I used to but I was aware that people have wanted ship transfer for a long time, so was there a large lobby of players who influenced the instant decision ?
What does in FD's terms "making the game more accessible mean ?"
Is, as the OP said the size of the galaxy now creating problems and are those problems player base size decreasing and you think it is accessibility which is the issue ?
My two penneth says you are wrong if the last point was relevant to your decision making.
It will just make the grind faster and give the people the illusion they are doing things quicker, for a while, until they become used to it that is, then what ?
Meh win button ?
How about for once trying to use some ... and I think <a swear word> would be entirely appropriate at that point in the sentence ... imagination when trying to improve peoples playing experience.
Make it easier for em to get more.. more I say. do more, have more.... ! Who is running the show there HSBC.. ?
is DB real or a Hologram ?
[sour]
Last edited by a moderator:
Exactly what I fear, too. Once instant magic travel has been established - and be it just in the beta - it will be hard to rectify later on.
Last edited:
Since Michael Brookes' postings yesterday there are two broad discussions running within this thread. The first is whether or not ship transfer is a viable game mechanic, and whehter it should be instant. This is basically a redux of what's going on in the threadnaught and in an ideal world would be taking place there, but the posts are probably too entwined with everything else to be pruned now. The second is whether "3D printing" is a viable in-universe explanation for the instantaneous transfer, and whether that explanation should be extended to the whole of Elite lore.
As someone very concerned about the latter, I'm worried that its importance may be getting diluted or buried in the rehashes of old arguments from the earlier thread(s).
If any moderators are reading this, do you think the following is a good idea or would it just cause lots of unnecessary work for the moderation team before ultimately going the way of all the other "instant ship" threads?
This may well come across as extremely pedantic but I can't emphasise how important I feel this distinction is, and whether it would be interesting for both the community and the developers to gauge opinion on it without the salient points being buried in the usual merry-go-round. I nearly started such a thread myself but I figured there was a good chance it would be -- somewhat ironically -- locked for being a duplicate.
Would this be worthwhile? Or am I just sitting on the beach in my pilot's chair, wishing the tide away?
As someone very concerned about the latter, I'm worried that its importance may be getting diluted or buried in the rehashes of old arguments from the earlier thread(s).
If any moderators are reading this, do you think the following is a good idea or would it just cause lots of unnecessary work for the moderation team before ultimately going the way of all the other "instant ship" threads?
- A new thread is started -- ideally by one of the moderation team so it has slightly more gravitas* -- entitled "Instant ship transfer in Elite canon" or similar.
- The OP makes it clear that any discussion is to take place with the assumption that instant ship transfer will be implemented in 2.2 and cannot be changed, at least before beta.
- The thread would be for the discussion of
- Whether "3D printing" is a reasonable explanation for instantaneous ship transfer in game.
- Whether any alternative explanations are viable.
- Whether any explanation is needed at all, or if we should just ignore it as a game feature like instant paint jobs or instant Rebuy resurrection.
- What implications a given explanation may have on other aspects of the game both in terms of gameplay and lore.
- If an explanation is needed, whether it should form part of canon and be incorporated into fiction both internal (GalNet and the unfolding storyline) and external (officially licensed novels).
- Whether "3D printing" is a reasonable explanation for instantaneous ship transfer in game.
- The thread would not be for the discussion of...
- Whether ship transfer is a good idea.
- Whether delayed ship transfer would be a better idea.
- Tweaks to the proposed changes (timers, flags, NPCs, misson integration, distance limits, credit limits, crime and punishment restrictions etc.) that would require any sort of additional game code.
- Whether ship transfer is a good idea.
This may well come across as extremely pedantic but I can't emphasise how important I feel this distinction is, and whether it would be interesting for both the community and the developers to gauge opinion on it without the salient points being buried in the usual merry-go-round. I nearly started such a thread myself but I figured there was a good chance it would be -- somewhat ironically -- locked for being a duplicate.
Would this be worthwhile? Or am I just sitting on the beach in my pilot's chair, wishing the tide away?
[SUP]*I understand that moderators are volunteers and have no authority beyond
the forum's own rules, but sometimes that blue background adds a subtle
hint of "someone is watching this" that you don't get with a non-moderator OP.[/SUP]
the forum's own rules, but sometimes that blue background adds a subtle
hint of "someone is watching this" that you don't get with a non-moderator OP.[/SUP]
Can we also remove the "sending your ship down the elevator... turning it around... removing weapon... adding weapon... going back to surface" thing in outfitting?
Can we remove the landing gear delay? Or docking request queues? Or having to fly to the back docking pad of the station?
Can we remove the need to wait for your SRV to be deployed? And your ship have to wait 30 seconds to pick you up from orbit, and it have to find a place to land and you have to drive back over to it? Then spend more time going back up the elevator? Then spending time waiting for the engines to start up?
Can we removing the discovery scanner delay, both for initial ping and detailed scanning?
Can we removing the delay in mining and having to sit there waiting for our laser to slowly blast chunks of rock apart one by one?
Can we remove the interdiction FSD cooldown timer?
Can we un-nerf the yaw rate of ships? It's just wastes time which stops us actually flying our ships.
Your over thinking it now .. Thats the issue.
Maybe because I know (to a point) how games are made and that I know this is all just data sitting on a database somewhere it doesn't affect me. But in the end it is just a game, if you look for the cracks in any game you will find them. You just happening to be looking harder now than before.
2.2 wont chnage my attitude towards the game, I know its all fake, I knew that from the start, you will get over it, you have to if you want to continue to enjoy playing it.
I wrote this somewhere else, but since it kind of answers your question, let me just copy it here:
In fact, everyone who ever asked for ship transport specifically requested that it should not be instant. Here are just a few examples:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/231632-Ship-Towing-Transport-Service
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/281865-Ship-transport
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/103669-Having-ships-transported-to-new-locations
If you search the forums for "Ship transport" you will find that universally everyone who ever mentioned the time aspect of the mechanic, requested the it to not be instant but take some time to complete.
Last edited: