If you think ED's too difficult...

[ianw]

I agree. For the record, during the Alpha we never heard such cries for the game to be made easier, at least not that I remember. To be honest I am astonished at some of the posts.

If anything people wanted it harder and even more involved.

I agree - I'm surprised that anyone who shelled out enough to get into premium beta wouldn't also invest a little bit of time reading up on the forums and looking at all the superb instructional videos that have been done by other commanders - some even have huge subtitles and commentary!

And there really is no substitute for practice.

 

[Dogmeat]

I generally agree with ubermick's first post:

http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showpost.php?p=437406&postcount=17

The difficulty of the game as planned for release; this is fine I think. I've died about 11 times and had to go back to square one with basic Sidewinder and 1000Cr after achieving my first upgrade on 3 or 4 occasions now. It's frustrating but very satisfying when you get something right. I personally find docking easy; I found it trivially easy in the first game.

My criticism of the OP's and the many supporting views is that we aren't at release yet. Our rankings and bank balances are of no consequence as there will be at least one more wipe before then.

Sure, this thread is in the General Forum rather then the Beta Forum...but we are playing a Beta. We are early backers so obviously we are happy to be pioneers but I still think with all the extra players in the 'universe' it's liable to be a bit of a PVP-fest as we try to gear up and try out all the toys. This means those that have got away early will enjoy a huge advantage over the rest and that wont help test the broadest range of features.

True, most of my money has been lost to game crashes, and that will improve quickly, but I'd say a small alteration in starting gear (say 2x pulse lasers) will help offset the suppression effect of so many players in a relatively small space.

Gamma testing? Full release? Bring on the poverty. While we are all crowded into our little corner we could do something to level out the PVP for starting players, however.

 

[Celonius]

I'm totally agree with the OP. At first it was a bit frustating, but then I start to earn money and buy hardpoints. The IA is not very hard, the problem maybe is that at first he has better hardpoints than you.
Anyway, please stop playing easy games. For that go to CoD and BF. This is a SpaceSim and is for hard gamers. Get out carebears.

 

[Dogmeat]

Celonius you are kind of making my point for me: The game is fine once you have that extra hardpoint filled, and no-one was complaining about the AI.

 

[Im_Lost]

I think it's ok. It's probably harder at the moment because of the limited ways to make money, only 5 systems and no complete insurance system. Bugs don't help either, I logged on yesterday and just instantly exploded on the landing pad.

Docking is easy in small ships once you have done it a few times. The difficulty spikes massively once you start flying big stuff.

An offline landing simulator would be nice though. Just an empty map with a station in it

 

[Daffan]

Yes. Practice, folks. Practice makes perfect.

Playing Elite is a lot like gambling too, especially when you put all your chips on the table (in cargo). You make that "one more" trade run, but you're tired. Or distracted. Or you decide to get too "bold" with a pirate who just interdicted you. And everything changes suddenly.

I can't even count how many times that happened to me in the original Elite. Of course, I can't count how many times cuz it was 30 years ago and I've had a lot of alcohol in-between.

So if you're not really ready to start from scratch, then don't invest all your credits. I went into Federal Distress Signal yesterday with a 2nd pulse laser and enough credits for insurance and more cargo just in case. And I had to cash in that insurance...

OR you just set your game mode to solo or private LOL

 

[capt_carl]

I had to stop my self from posting after reading every grumpy new beta testers comments.
I got the impression none of them had been reading the forum and keeping up to date with developments or even watching the odd video. Particularly the docking comments, I've been watching videos and reading posts. I had a good idea of what to expect, hence I managed to dock first time with only minor damage and embarrassment.

 

[BenjaminSisko]

Difficulty

I can see where the complaints on difficulty are coming from.

My personal experience so far from docking as im about to touch down on the landing pad my clearance gets cancelled well within the 10 minutes allowed to dock and then it takes 14 docking requests before im cleared for a different pad which is not lit up or shown.

And when I fanally find the new pad I get fined for loitering and blown up.

Then I get interdicted by a pirate who proceeds to shred me to pieces before I can even get him in view despite using all my thrusters and all axis of movement I cannot get him into to view let alone take a shot at him.

I've played all the previous elite releases and none of them came close to this level of difficulty.

 

[Dr Wookie]

One of the most ignorant comments I've heard, comparing driving a car to a computer game, if you want to manually dock that's fine, but I'll want an autodock option, even if it's buying a module for it. All the flight sims I've played over the years have core mechanics covered in tutorials including the more mundane things such as landings/takeoffs. And my first experience with computer games was with a ZX81, I here a lot of talk about dumbing down of games over the years and I don't agree with it in this type of genre, but the most important thing about a game is that it should be fun.

This isn't quite the right quote, but never mind . I suggest that people having difficulty docking should spend a while just landing and docking with their free sidewinder. Even if you crash, you won't lose anything. Also Frontier put out a docking tutorial on YouTube that you should look at

It is a lot harder to make progress in this beta than it will be in the final game, because of many missing elements and the fact that everyone is in the same 5 systems, driving down trade margins and hunting the same bounties.

 

[Ixnatifual]

I'm seeing people complain about difficulty in the Alpha, which won't even be playable in the finished version of the game. No one knows what the difficulty will be in the starting areas of the finished game.

 

[SuperG]

There is difference to, steep learning curve, hardness and realistic. These games are what complex and have a lot off depth and multy gameplay option. But wenn you start you get into the core gameplay flying your ship. That should n't be hard. If that is steep then why?
If that is. Often means Devs used a wrong GUI design. Mostly most games implementation suffice but there are a lot of bad once to. The better once are very rare. My opinion is that UI design is very important. But most production budged limited projects it doesn't get the time they need. Or its a after thought.
That why I got a dev book about Game UI development. Also devs get very used to there UI and don't experience real difficulty as they are the most routined im there own UI design. Then come the mainstream player. A UI problem. In studio game tester are also very experienced in the UI because the deal with it trough test fases. So there word is not that of avarage gamer.

Example in Derk Smart " universal Combat " you got these radar screens with 3 letter buttons like RSI RDB SSR CTG just make some up. A dozen of doze. Look very pro. But makes the game very unaccesable. You need to learn manual.play regulary to blindly known the UI.

If you carreer is fighter pilot you have extensive training and routine and flight hour. So they will learn the most crappy or spartan vehicle UI because its your job and you do the time to learn for manny years extensivly.

As I did with technical programs under MSdos Orcad and Ultiboard. Making PCB.
Bad UI but get to know it. Because it is part of job.

These space vessel are very advance very higly developed due to centuries of experience and avaible technology. Naval there is steep learning curve if you where in sail era viking ships and kolonisation middle ages. Modern vessels got very high tech and are much easier to handle . But you need a licence wich can be hard to get. To be captian on few milion $ tanker and have lot of experience.

Space ships will be very easy to handle if there very advanced. Nasa esa etc is comparable, where the old middle ages vikings where exploring the see. Following cost lines. While in that case getting to orbit and reach out to the moon. So space shuttle is hard to get going and depending on lot of others.

But wenn civilian in small corporation or even rivate can get those vessels. Thy are advance and accesable. Still need licence and experience. It would be like, but fictional, space trucking. Very easy. Its more the resposibility to may be handling such expensive vessel from a corporation who put some other corporation cargo into your hands. So licence not easy to get.

Realism problem is often boredom not that it always hard, it could make things easy why. In real life you dont make it hard. If you are not a ACE fighter pilot you wont combat on his turf. You got you gun boat. Need not to move agile but are bigger got more shield more incoming hit endurance, do not need to dogfight got main turrets for effective tracing. With much more power, like space cannon class. And auto matic traccing.

Think of naval goalkeeper guns. Automated cannons on modern frigates. But then something that shoot very fast projectiles or beams with there realistic range wich could be in the AU. Or closer 100km. So the combat realy get very slow and the little fighter doesnt have much chance at all.

That why space games go for unreal aircombat in space. To make it fast aktion and balanced so in two way very unreal and third to handicap weapons. For balance, often Introducing the rock paper scissor game mechanics. The stricked ship classes.

Because in real it would not be like ww2 fighter planes in space.its cummeltive weapon tech few centuries beyound our tech dat make combat very different and not exactly like air combat naval or submarine. But space is its own uniek domain of how warfare resolves.

If the devs do it right mainstream gamers get up to handling there ships fast because they having high tech ship no space shuttle.

The problem is the other players. So the problem is the chalange the competition the ranking and that based on game skillz. Some are very trained in it like second nature fast reaction. Twitch gamers. Often the regulary gaming youngsters and the old veterans who kept there skillz very high.

Example call of duty. Very accesable game. You are up to speed online very fast. But then skill. My aunty played but could get up with those experience avarage its not the game wich is the problem but the skills. After 25 years your reaction decline even for pro gamers. So it is not that you can train to get to the level of experienced juviniles get. But you capacity to mastering fast gameplay is limited by age. But could counter that with better tactics due to higher experience level.
But older beginner are very limited. They could reach above avarage skill.
A 14 year old is fast but plays for 5 gameyears history, while veteran got 20 years of experience espacialy in tactics. So The skill difference is huge from noobs casual to hardcore to pro gamers.

For fighter pilot well I played microprose F19 you scramble from aircraft carrier to mission and if you made it back. You need to land on the carrier. Then the mission is done. While that difficulty is option for military . But in real carrier landing is risky landing. For civilian it not done such high risk and high training needs. For civilians and corporations Docking your starship would be easy. Space Ships would do it automaticly. Unless you lost in pace with you Farscape shuttle in region with advance space traveling trade and warfare.

Realism,isn't it just follows the realistic rules in stead some unreal game rules in place. Unreal doesnt mean easy. It often makes it difficult because the pace get unrealistic high. So while often simplefied it could make it much more difficult.
Like take away inertia and humans in Fps with 54kg full gear run like if the are flies. Jumpe like frogs very difficult to hit. Experience player move like ADHD syndrom . They move to much because harder to hit harder to track.Its become bunny hopping some kind of dogfighting on foot. In space you have fighter that are very difficult to hit. But then agian most weapons there uses projectiles or slow moving beams or pulses. And guns are fixed mounted. Thats a handicap. if your goal is to hit very agile things.


Because it is in its core piloting or driving someting. The comparrising with getting to get top ballerrina? Make no sense. Getting to get a medical doctor make no sense. You have there not to deal with others in direct competive way. Its more arena like competition . Its more to do with sports. To stand out above average in sport you must get to higher skills.

Dat not driving or piloting something so I totaly disagree with OP.
But there arent combat sports so. What is probaly is close comarison a racing mix with paintball aktion in the mix.

So I am for much more realism. That make airdogfight go away. Makes weapons effective. Not fixed but on turrets get real range going as fast as they go.
Fly by wire. And true newtownian flight model. And a very advanced autopilot.

Combat in to AU ranges instead a few km. More with missiles. No fighters but fighter drones. Starships would be huge as those exotic FTL and supercruise drive arens litle engines.

Ofcource I know it because Mplay feature. I more for singleplayer with coop option.

Also with advance tech comes also very advance savety measures. So ramming or crashing into something would be something of the past.
So hanging out in the save spaces should be doable for less skill pilots.

 

[Karl]

It's not feasible to have difficulty levels in the same universe. There are already claims of E: D being a carebear game, if it was possible for someone in the same universe to have an easier game than another the forum might melt down. The only solution would be separate servers with separate gamers of different capabilities (then you'd get griefers going to the easy server).

Difficulty levels or difficulty options could be listed in MP joining screen and preferred matchmaking settings (like, experienced players/known griefers wouldn't be allowed on the easy mode servers), although I was actually addressing SP aspect of the game.

One thing E: D does that no other Elite did is MP. You can fly with a friend.

True, but I can't ignore the cost of doing so, here, or in any other game deciding to go MP while losing important aspects for doing so (physics simulations is a recurring baddie).

 

[MonochromeChaos]

Gosh, I'm late to this thread, and it seems pointless now to quote something from the OP...but I'm going to anyway.

You don't watch gymnastics and then pull your overweight hairy ass off the couch and start doing tumbles and flips... you're lucky if you can get up the stairs to the loo! I tried for years as a little girl to do the splits - never could do it. Does that mean we should call 'doing the splits' standing with your legs shoulder width apart so that every talking ape can do it?

If I was watching gymnastics, then, yes, you're right, I wouldn't be able to just get up and do it.

But I could go join a club, get instruction, practice, and get better at it, until I was as good as I was going to get.

And the really important thing is....

...all those people at the club I joined would welcome me to their sport, because they'd be happy that I was showing an interest in what they love doing. They'd help me, support me, encourage me, cheer me on, and celebrate the little successes along the way, until I reached my limit, whatever that might be, whether Olympic athlete or just 'tries hard, has fun' weekend warrior.

And if any one of them ever said "hey, you just can't do it" I'd find another club.

And if anyone in any of those RL things I do, and enjoy, ever said to someone else I was helping "hey, just give up on this, you just can't do it" I very much would not just stay silent.

In short - that whole attitude sucks. You don't have to be able to win the game, to play the game and enjoy the game. If people find it hard at first, then give help and support so they get through it, don't just raise a big old "you'll never be able to do it" barrier to entry, because that's just not nice.

The people who win marathons are only winners because there are thousands of people like me plodding along behind them. Otherwise they'd just be one person who has happened to run a long way very fast. Likewise, getting that 'Elite' rating in game is going to be a lot less rewarding when there's no-one around to say "well done", because they all gave up because they were told "you just can't do it". It's infinitely better to encourage them to play, and when our abilities cap us as 'mostly harmless' - then so what?

*disclaimer* I'm probably over-reacting because I've done a bunch of stuff involving disabled sport, not to mention able bodied sports, and equality of opportunity is a BIG thing to me. I suspect the OP just hit a few of my trigger points. Apologies if this comes off as a rant.

-edited to add- on a short reflection, and in the interests of balance - I completely support the view that the solution to people finding it hard is NOT to make it easier.

 

[ste]

Hey, I just turned this game on and I'm not awesome at it.. it should be easier.

I dont want to have to spend more than a few minutes learning, what is this school?

Why cant I win all the time, without having to put much effort in? Its not fun to not win everytime.

This game is too hard, I'm getting killed all the time while not being able to kill anyone, it should be the other way or its not fun.

I want more health, but at the same time I want the enemies to have less health..



Yes slightly exaggerated but not really, this is in essence what people are moaning about.

The problem is when the devs pander to this, its why 99% of games these days arent worth playing.

 

[Darkstar_IE]

Well, I "kinda" agree, and I love this post by the way. But I think the problem is peoples attitude today. The world today tells them you never lose, you "achieve a fail" , its OK not to win, as long as you "tried your best". Political correctness, and the general liberal attitude of "everyone must win" has driven many people to the point of thinking the world owes them a living, and that it doesn't matter about an ability level, because the world should automatically revert to the "easy setting" so you can be the same as everybody else. Well, here is the kicker people, life just aint like that, and neither is ELITE.

The world owes you nothing, except that which you work for. Elite simply reinforces that message. yes I know its hard in these days of liberal global happiness for all, but its a cold hard fact. If you get jumped by pirates while ferrying your hard earned cargo to port, you have a choice, fight or flight. you either toughen up, and kit out your ship to be able to defend yourself, or you run. Also, if you cannot pilot a sidewinder into a station, then you crash, and you try again, and you crash, and you try again, and eventually you do it, and the sense of satisfaction is intense.

I am old timer space dawg (chews and spits tobacco ) who played literally hundreds of hours on elite on the Spectrum and commodore 64 back in the 80's. I scraped my ship down the side wall of many a space station before I could afford a docking computer. I lost many a ship to the lure of high profit from Reidequat, and used to regularly run the gauntlet of pirates in that anarchic system. Elite will return to you tenfold whatever you put in. But it is not easy, don't expect it to be. If it was easy then it would not be anywhere near as rewarding. When you make that first flawless docking, or when you fight tooth and nail, then barely escape with your life, and sell a high profit cargo, the feeling is incredible. Stick with it, and you will be rewarded. - Great post OP,

 

[ubermick]

Again, I don't think Beta folks are complaining that things are too hard. Well, most of us aren't. We're a little bit surprised and things are a bit more difficult than we expected, since we haven't gotten used to the fact that player ships are a *LOT* harder than the AI we're used to, and most of us had no idea how to quickly earn credits to kit out a ship to stand a chance in those fights, and are only now encountering a lot of the bugs (landing issues - landing isn't hard, but the bugs can occasionally make it a 'mare) that were completely hidden to us in the alpha backers' forum (unless you spent hours and hours on here poring through threads to see the occasional mention of a bug).

It's new, it's a hell of a challenge, but the vast majority of us are just putting our heads down and saying "fair enough." Yeah, it'd be nice if we got twin lasers to start with, but it is what it is. It's a very squeaky minority that are moaning about the beta on the overall - and again, we all have to remember it's a beta - but I certainly do remember Alpha folks lodging several complaints during their testing, and the attitude of a similarly small but squeaky minority of Alphans pounding their chests (or *******) and acting high and mighty certainly doesn't help.

 

[Phil^]

It is currently too difficult for absolutely new players - assuming new people who never played the original elite are the sort of players FD are after or if its being done to cater to the 30+ crowd who did instead, at the expense of all others.
If they aren't bothered about capturing another generation of players - then carry on as is, let it be an unforgiving huzzah to the fanbase.

Otherwise - things need to be in place by release to bring new players up to speed faster rather than crippling the game for all players, as extremely steep learning curves and unforgiving gameplay simply will drive new people away, and word of mouth will go around saying the game is awful as a result. Thus - both the new player and anyone who listens to their opinion is discouraged from playing the game,which is bad for everyone.

I would have thought that systems with the highest of security levels would be the safer ones - and so a better place for rookies to be introduced to the game mechanics. Fewer interdictions, easier NPCs, and so on - but as a counterbalance for the rewards to be much less in terms of bounties, trade route incomes and so on.
As the rookie becomes more and more in tune with how the game works - they could be encouraged to venture further afield via missions and work their way towards the anarchic rim which would be much more challenging and much more rewarding.

Alternatively if "easy/normal/elite" difficulty levels are wanted, you could balance them by making the rewards scale appropriately as well - so easy would have a multiplier of say 0.5 on your progress towards elite status, whereas the hardest would be a scale value >1
Unfortunately with this approach you would need to segregate each 'difficulty' level lest they interfere with each other. Splitting the playerbase is generally a bad idea unless you have an extremely large number of players so that each 'shard' isnt too quiet.

 

[Mauser]

I don't need training wheels on my Cobra Mk III! Didn't the original Elite sell an insane amount of copies back then? Something like 100.000 copies in Britain alone? Wasn't Elite much harder than ED (especially on the C64 with fps often in the single digits)? There was no internet, no forums, only the schoolfellows on the school yard who also played Elite. One of them came up with an interesting method that made docking fool proof by utilizing the compass. Problem solved!

That being said, ED attracts all sorts of gamers, and not all of them a hardcore flight simmers with top notch gear who were hardened by years of experience with Falcon 4, DCS, FSX or what have you.

So I'm all for tutorials to lessen the learning curve. Don't bother about manuals, they don't read them anyway these days.

But, I mean, seriously, go and buy a joystick. Just some cheap stick! Don't use a keyboard or game pad or - heaven forbid! - the mouse to control the ship and then come here to complain that the game is too hard!

And for those who only want to explore without fighting or anything I have two words: Space Engine!

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

In short - that whole attitude sucks. You don't have to be able to win the game, to play the game and enjoy the game. If people find it hard at first, then give help and support so they get through it, don't just raise a big old "you'll never be able to do it" barrier to entry, because that's just not nice.

Been thinking for a while how best to respond to this thread - You sir have summed it up nicely. The attitude of some people here is appalling - considering the trials and tribulations we went through during the KS, gnashing of teeth wondering if this damn game would be made or not, and this is the result ?

Yes - the game is hard - It's supposed to require effort. However you don't require anything special to pilot a ship in a video game apart from patience. Some will be hot shots; some will be pants; but we should at least be able to have fun getting there.

Never has the quote "it's not the destination that counts, it's the journey" been so apt.

Wrong message to be sending to the community OP.

 

[Darkstar_IE]

Been thinking for a while how best to respond to this thread - You sir have summed it up nicely. The attitude of some people here is appalling - considering the trials and tribulations we went through during the KS, gnashing of teeth wondering if this damn game would be made or not, and this is the result ?

Yes - the game is hard - It's supposed to require effort. However you don't require anything special to pilot a ship in a video game apart from patience. Some will be hot shots; some will be pants; but we should at least be able to have fun getting there.

Never has the quote "it's not the destination that counts, it's the journey" been so apt.

Wrong message to be sending to the community OP.

Maybe not the wrong message, but maybe a little brash

Elite can be hard, thats the game. i think the point the OP was making is stop whining about it, and get on with it. - Im sure if any player asks for help they will receive it, the forums are full of helpful tips. but people have got to want to help themselves, before anyone can help them. if people are just going to and moan about how hard the game is, then they will never progress. - (just saying is all )