Combat is Infuriating

[Vaerah]

I have returned back to ED too since about 2 weeks...
I mostly trade, do salvage missions, ground missions. Not a passionated ship killer, however I used to have high PvE rating before I reset my pilot and restarted. Now I am very low grade and trying to keep that!

I don't find the AI being especially smarter now. I can still get on every AI's tail on my cargo-overloaded Python like before. Kinda boring. At least, now they don't get stuck like before.


However, AI firepower is WAY out of scale now. This is not the way to "upgrade" AI or make it more interesting. Developers could give AI a 1-shot-dead mega-cannon, this won't make AI more interesting, just more pointless.

Even when empty, my Python (A grade modules where it counts) shields get melted in 10 seconds from medium AI ships, 5 seconds from AI condas.
I am taking low danger rated missions (as I am low rank, as I said) and still I get always sent against me 1-4 Master or Elite Pythons+.
It's not fun at all.

About every other salvage missions (space version) we get sent 4 NPC attackers. 50% of the time, if I don't get the **** out fast, the 4 NPCs spawn, they are always monster powered. My Python shield melts so fast that, if I boost away as they appear I get out at 30-50% hull IF I spam shield re-charges. It goes better if I spam chaffs as well, but still... for a 500k mission it's not worth risking 6M in ship loss.

Additionally, most salvage missions involve getting an NPC spawned after you once you leave the salvage site. That's OK. However I am also wanted for an handful of credits in some far away system and thus I get a "Bounty hunter" NPC sent after me too.

Needless to say, the salvage mission NPC attacks me and (oddly enough, for ED) is correctly rated for me ("Dangerous-Expert", that's how low my reset rank is).
And needless to say, while the above NPC is hitting me, I get the bounty hunter NPC too, which is always Master o Elite and in some Python+ ship and it truly obliterates my shields.

Last fight I got salvage mission NPC with Python + elite bounty hunter in 'Conda and only reason I survived and fled (I did not even try to fight them, my A rated Python can't face that 'Conda for 10 seconds before it explodes) is because Police popped in and got 'em busy enough for me in 5% hull to do a reboot (engine was dead) and jump away.

I don't find this kind of gameplay fun at all, expecially because I was about to buy a full A grade kitted T-9 and.... how can I even HOPE to finish a single mission with that?
I mean, I can still call fair game on my Python, it can boost away fast and turn "quick" (compared to a T-9) but I am totally clueless about how to cope with those mad powerhouse NPCs on a T-9. I am merchant at heart, so that was the ship I really wanted to fly!

I know, "get a cargo 'Conda" and stuff, but I want a T-9 and I take it, every ship should be viable in ED, even a T-9. Right?

 

[Sardu]

SC has awful flight controls and the extremely unbalanced mouse aim makes it just a no play kind of game.

Too true. Doing anything (flying, walking, shooting) in SC feels just awful. ED is a dream to play and control in comparison.

 

[AdamBell]

Mines are now the cargo ship's weapon of choice, as you can run away while blowing up your pursuer.

The AI is if anything too weak now. If you stack shield cells (which you should if you're bounty hunting) you can chew through multiple elite Anacondas without too much of a problem in a python+. And you really shouldn't be jousting if you're using FA off turning. You should be on their tail. Google some PVP videos and watch their turning rates.

 

[avow555]

Sidewinders fitted with plasma accelerators, yeh NPC combat makes total sense now.
From impossible loadouts to insane jump ranges the NPC have it all now.

 

[Siranui]

However, AI firepower is WAY out of scale now.

Only Elite and Deadly NPCs have more firepower [Engineer mods]. Al lower ranked NPCs do not. There is no firepower disparity against these foes The AI is making the difference.

Even when empty, my Python (A grade modules where it counts) shields get melted in 10 seconds from medium AI ships, 5 seconds from AI condas.

4 pips to shields under effective fire or unsure of an NPC's intentions. It's the key to survival, due to the massive damage reduction it grants.

If the NPC spawning is off on salvage missions and always way beyond the rank of the mission, maybe report it. I don't do those ones, so have no experience with them.

The reason it is always a Python+ is because you are in a Python. If you take smaller ship the NPC ship spawns are typically kinder. )

I am taking low danger rated missions (as I am low rank, as I said) and still I get always sent against me 1-4 Master or Elite Pythons+.

Erm... Master or Elite? Master is quite a row rank.

If you are low rank, taking low level missions and getting Elite foes all the time, perhaps do a bug report?

I don't find this kind of gameplay fun at all, expecially because I was about to buy a full A grade kitted T-9 and.... how can I even HOPE to finish a single mission with that?

Ask 777Driver, I guess..

 

[GTwannabe]

Combat is fine. My only complaint is the bugged/cheating AI. They can continuously spam shield cells and have infinite ammo and chaff.

 

[Ndarain]

Doesn't change the fact that high rank NPCs are absurdly overpowered.

So overpowered they die in 30 sec?

 

[Vaerah]

4 pips to shields under effective fire or unsure of an NPC's intentions. It's the key to survival, due to the massive damage reduction it grants.

If the NPC spawning is off on salvage missions and always way beyond the rank of the mission, maybe report it. I don't do those ones, so have no experience with them.

The reason it is always a Python+ is because you are in a Python. If you take smaller ship the NPC ship spawns are typically kinder. )

There are several kinds of (in space) salvage missions, you get randomly sent in one of them. Most of the time you get to pick up 4 x illicit cargo, about 50% of the time you get 4 NPCs to spawn about half a minute past you entered the spawned area.
Picking up fragile cargo that starts at about 1k away takes some time, NPCs usually spawn when you need some more seconds to take the cargo up.
Problem is, they spawn close enough you get from 18 to 23 strength mass lock. 4 pips in shields is what I use when they open the barrage but then I must go to 2 pips and boost like a madman, if I stay pinned down it's really going to be over quick. Even boosting it takes like 1 minute to get at enough distance to drop mass lock, that minute is quite... intense.

Now, quick math: chance to die in there: 10%, costing 8.5M a repop. The 6M figure I stated earlier was low, I forgot I put higher grade mods in the mean time.
Typical salvage mission at max reputation nets from 500k to 700k, lets say 600k average.

You can easily see how 600k @ 10% death rate equals to 6M being made before a death. 6M << 8.5M cost per repop.

Does not sound very good, right?

Erm... Master or Elite? Master is quite a row rank.

If you are low rank, taking low level missions and getting Elite foes all the time, perhaps do a bug report?

Master is the minimum I get, Elite the maximum (duh!).
My post-reset rank is "Competent" ATM, so I should not get put against those dudes all the time.

Ask 777Driver, I guess..

I use these forums very little. I guess he's a famous T9 pilot?

 

[the100thmonkey]

There are several kinds of (in space) salvage missions, you get randomly sent in one of them. Most of the time you get to pick up 4 x illicit cargo, about 50% of the time you get 4 NPCs to spawn about half a minute past you entered the spawned area.
Picking up fragile cargo that starts at about 1k away takes some time, NPCs usually spawn when you need some more seconds to take the cargo up.
Problem is, they spawn close enough you get from 18 to 23 strength mass lock. 4 pips in shields is what I use when they open the barrage but then I must go to 2 pips and boost like a madman, if I stay pinned down it's really going to be over quick. Even boosting it takes like 1 minute to get at enough distance to drop mass lock, that minute is quite... intense.

Now, quick math: chance to die in there: 10%, costing 8.5M a repop. The 6M figure I stated earlier was low, I forgot I put higher grade mods in the mean time.
Typical salvage mission at max reputation nets from 500k to 700k, lets say 600k average.

You can easily see how 600k @ 10% death rate equals to 6M being made before a death. 6M << 8.5M cost per repop.

Does not sound very good, right?




Master is the minimum I get, Elite the maximum (duh!).
My post-reset rank is "Competent" ATM, so I should not get put against those dudes all the time.

I use these forums very little. I guess he's a famous T9 pilot?

You're taking missions that indicate the kind of combat/trader rank you would normally expect would/should take that mission.

The game is basically telling you to expect trouble, and what kind of trouble. Yet you take the mission anyway and whine about it.

And why does your Python cost 170 million? I do these missions in one worth 90mcr, and it does the job just fine. I haven't died doing one of those missions yet, and I do a lot.

 

[nosleepdemon]

OP you need to invest in drive upgrades, since the release of 2.1 engineers have become the new top level tech. Once you get, say, clean drives 3 and some shield booster upgrades the AI once again settles down to its horribly stupid self, performing most of its old idiotic bag of tricks that you can easily take advantage of. For example, a shieldless AI will not try to defeat seeker missiles, will not protect its hardpoints and does not often (ever?) use ECM.

 

[Adhock]

...but have returned for 2.5...

HOLY      ARE YOU FROM THE FUTURE?!?!

WE HAVEN'T EVEN GOTTEN 2.2 YET!

WHAT'S E: D LIKE IN THE FUTURE? I WANT TO KNOW!





XD Yeah 2.1 was a shake up to everybody. Some people adjusted faster then others. Take it slow and ask for Support to drop your combat rank if you want to practice.

 

[Stone7]

HOLY ARE YOU FROM THE FUTURE?!?!

WE HAVEN'T EVEN GOTTEN 2.2 YET!

WHAT'S E: D LIKE IN THE FUTURE? I WANT TO KNOW!

Haha yeah that's what I was thinking, guess he means 2.1.05

Combat for me was a 50/50 thing until I watched some youtube videos and learnt to bind Auto-pilot On/Off to one of the thumb buttons on my Throttle. I figure out where the opponents tail is and aim my nose not directly at it but close enough that my gimballed lasers can hit the target, this for the most keeps me behind the enemy. My lasers are carrying Emissive rounds and have reduced power draw to keep firing indefinitely, then I have two standard multi-cannons but as we are only afforded two fire buttons I have a Missile launcher on the same fire key strapped to the belly of my Python. It has 50% upgraded magazine capacity and ammo so 9 missiles in 3 clips totalling 27 shots. Once locked on a short press of the trigger fires a missile whilst a long press gives the multi-cannons time to whir up into life. Giving me as close as is currently possible to control over 3 weapon types. Once in play my Heat seeking missiles also are bringing Thermal cascade to the party. With all the other engineering I've done on the Python I have to say that I'm an average combat pilot but I haven't needed to run from a 1 on 1 fight for quite some time now and I'll take on 2 vs 1 or 3 vs 1 depending on circumstances. I'm using Bi-Weave shields as I'll often get them back up and in play again in any fight that drags on longer than a quick encounter but it is pretty rare these days that combat lasts long enough to take them down in the 1st place. I'm talking here only about npc encounters I'm sure I'd get shredded in PvP.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

I love combat in 2.1.

It's finally somewhat of a challenge.

Still needs more work IMHO, but it's so much more interesting than the mindless farming of 2.0 and before.

The only thing I will say, is my unmodded Python relied heavily on turrets to track the little fighters.
And once i got my dirty drives 3, I kept using turrets.
And now I'm lazy again.
Lol

But recently I took most of the turrets off, and went back to Gimballed, so I'll see how things go next time I get in a scrum with a small ship.

 

[Vaerah]

You're taking missions that indicate the kind of combat/trader rank you would normally expect would/should take that mission.

The game is basically telling you to expect trouble, and what kind of trouble. Yet you take the mission anyway and whine about it.

And why does your Python cost 170 million? I do these missions in one worth 90mcr, and it does the job just fine. I haven't died doing one of those missions yet, and I do a lot.

The stated missions difficulty is aligned with my rank, it's the NPCs that spawn inside that aren't.
Also, you could improve your manners when you address people.

As for costing 170M, it's:

1) Because as a trader I can afford it and actually I already have the excess cash to purchase a fully A kitted T-9.
2) Because I adopted the quite famous The Great Python build (except the Prismatic Shield Generator, I don't have that faction) which allows to build a nice, self-defending trading ship.

 

[Ziljan]

Sort of a challenge, not really though. I recently had to downgrade to a Viper with C3 shields and fixed weapons to make high CZs actually challenging again. And by "challenging" I mean I lost 2 rings of my shields a couple times in 2 hours of play. No SCBs either. Popped chaff 3 times. Only thing engineered was the dirty drives. No enhanced engines.

In short NPCs are less brain dead now, but for a real challenge, I am still waiting on Thargoids.

 

[the100thmonkey]

The stated missions difficulty is aligned with my rank, it's the NPCs that spawn inside that aren't.
Also, you could improve your manners when you address people.

As for costing 170M, it's:

1) Because as a trader I can afford it and actually I already have the excess cash to purchase a fully A kitted T-9.
2) Because I adopted the quite famous The Great Python build (except the Prismatic Shield Generator, I don't have that faction) which allows to build a nice, self-defending trading ship.

Never heard of it.

There is such a thing as overspending. This build is a lot cheaper, and frankly more survivable. I must have gotten a 15% discount when I built mine; it was just over 100m (my apologies - 90m was the "sell your ship now"" value, losing 10% on internals) - my rebuy is just over 5 million, and that's what I'm using. If you're not running prismatics, the 7A powerplant is total overkill.

If you're not running the class 5 prismatic, I would assume that you're running the class 5 standard. Avoid this. You're sacrificing shields because you're also not running any chaff, which means tha NPCs hit a lot more. A 6A shield has basically the same strength with one less shield booster and double chaff to give you constant gimbal/turret-jamming (within reason, of course.)

Dump the fuel scoop and replace it with a cargo rack. This will compensate somewhat for the loss of the third class 6 slot to your shield (16 is half of 32!) Fuel scooping means your journeys take longer, which eats into the cr/hr ratio. It's probably 30 seconds out of your time, but it adds up, and refuel is instant when you buy it at the station while you're turning the ship around.

The three beam lasers is another reason that you're struggling - they will empty the distributor fast, which means you will have to divert pips from engines and shields to make them functional again. Pulse lasers do significantly less DPS, sure, but the only thing to do when you're outnumbered is run; you won't be using your lasers except to engage ships you believe you can beat. If you're scooping cargo and four ships drop in to give you that brown trousers feeling, your lasers won't matter much anyway.

Finally, if you own Horizons, Go to Farseer and rank her up to grade 3 access, then source your micro-weave cooling hoses and fit grade 3 dirty drive mods to your Python. They make a significant difference to the speed and the handling, enough to easily get you clear of any situation that requires running away, such as when you're doing a salvage mission and you have unexpected guests.

You know that you can always ditch a mission-specific USS instance and hang around in SC to wait for another one, right? They respawn. If you honk again, they might respawn around another body, but your mission description in the transaction tab will update to show you where to go (although you don't get a new message.)

With regard to my tone, my apologies. It's easy to lose patience sometimes on the internet, and I should try harder.

 

[Vaerah]

Never heard of it.

There is such a thing as overspending. This build is a lot cheaper, and frankly more survivable. I must have gotten a 15% discount when I built mine; it was just over 100m (my apologies - 90m was the "sell your ship now"" value, losing 10% on internals) - my rebuy is just over 5 million, and that's what I'm using. If you're not running prismatics, the 7A powerplant is total overkill.

If you're not running the class 5 prismatic, I would assume that you're running the class 5 standard. Avoid this. You're sacrificing shields because you're also not running any chaff, which means tha NPCs hit a lot more. A 6A shield has basically the same strength with one less shield booster and double chaff to give you constant gimbal/turret-jamming (within reason, of course.)

Dump the fuel scoop and replace it with a cargo rack. This will compensate somewhat for the loss of the third class 6 slot to your shield (16 is half of 32!) Fuel scooping means your journeys take longer, which eats into the cr/hr ratio. It's probably 30 seconds out of your time, but it adds up, and refuel is instant when you buy it at the station while you're turning the ship around.

The three beam lasers is another reason that you're struggling - they will empty the distributor fast, which means you will have to divert pips from engines and shields to make them functional again. Pulse lasers do significantly less DPS, sure, but the only thing to do when you're outnumbered is run; you won't be using your lasers except to engage ships you believe you can beat. If you're scooping cargo and four ships drop in to give you that brown trousers feeling, your lasers won't matter much anyway.

Finally, if you own Horizons, Go to Farseer and rank her up to grade 3 access, then source your micro-weave cooling hoses and fit grade 3 dirty drive mods to your Python. They make a significant difference to the speed and the handling, enough to easily get you clear of any situation that requires running away, such as when you're doing a salvage mission and you have unexpected guests.

You know that you can always ditch a mission-specific USS instance and hang around in SC to wait for another one, right? They respawn. If you honk again, they might respawn around another body, but your mission description in the transaction tab will update to show you where to go (although you don't get a new message.)

With regard to my tone, my apologies. It's easy to lose patience sometimes on the internet, and I should try harder.

Thank you, for the whole post. Including the last line, because apologies in these modern times are so hard to offer, and I gladly accept them!

I forgot to mention I had switched to pulse lasers (didn't take me a lot to figure out my beloved beams (I put em everywhere) were impossible to use on a Python). Moreover, if you read my first post here, I also had put in a chaff launcher which actually is the device that saved my ships in the worst situations.

In the beginning I wondered - and still wonder - why people use heatsinks when chaff launchers are so good. I can use shield cells just fine without the need to throw heatsinks.

By the way, I see you are using a 5B shield bank... why B grade? Money saving or some reason I don't know about?

Talking about instances, I get in, take 1-2 mission items, Low jump out, wait until it repops afresh (1-2 minutes), go in again and so on.


Finally, I have read this thread about post 2.1 patch Python. Apparently it looks like patch 2.1 made general purpose ships obsolete.
This greatly saddens me, as I truly loved Python with my heart, to the point I did not get a 'Conda.
I don't even understand why making general purpose ships obsolete is fair (they imply that in that thread), it reminds me about hybrid classes in MMORPGs: you cannot make viable hybrids, content is tuned to be reasonably hard for "pure" classes (ships in ED) so hybrids just aren't really viable. You roll a totally mediocre, uncompetitive class just to display some token flexibility that does not matter.
In fact, if Python is not meant do kills stuff any more (just flee), I see no reason using it over a T-7 / T-9 or using it over a pure combat ship. The former carry much more and have to flee the same way, the latter actually kills stuff.

 

[primedragoon]

Ok, for all of you out there who are telling people to take it slow and practice, please just stop. The AI as it is right now is neither to hard, nor to easy. I'd say its about perfect, though it does create some pretty annoying turn fights. But with speed limits being a thing, this was always going to be a turn fighting game in the end. That said, what's swung far out of whack if -time of investment vs returns-. By which I mean to say, the Competent AI is now just that. Its competent. I can kill it, though it takes a good bit longer than usual since its a lot better at staying out of line of fire now. Hell I can even kill them without getting scratched here and there. The problem however, is that I used to be able to make about 500K or something in an hour of bounty hunting.

Now I make 120k an hour. Or less, because it takes so much longer to kill these pukes because they're a tad smarter. Or at least, they're been told to do everything they can to stay out of your firing arc, with a secondary focus being on shooting you. I'd guess. But regardless, the difficulty is fine, the cost for a combat needs to be revamped. Or the difficulty lowered, either way. But in all honesty, a combat pilot, who assumes more risk than a trader, should earn more cash in the end. Up until recently, it was relatively even. Slanted in the traders favor. (And I mean by the beginning of 2.1, I've been away for a good while due to these combat issues.) So I as a combat pilot, now will take 4x as long to advance of the ship/money/resource tree as a trader or a miner. How the **** is the fair huh? So yeah, the price for killing an AI of Competent combat rank on up needs to be doubled, tripled, hell maybe even quadrupled. If it takes four times as long to kill an AI, we should be paid four times as much for killing that AI, otherwise you create a huge discrepency in pay between the traders and the combat pilots.

I mean honestly, the way the game is going right now, I want to abandon RES Hunting and Combat Bonds and maybe just try out attacking single ships traveling through systems in supercruise. Try the whole pirate the NPC game, see if that literally makes more money then RES hunting right now at a substantial amount less risk.

EDIT - Also as it is right now, I have to agree that combat in really infuriating. I'm struggling to find a game with good combat right now, its punishing as hell.

 

[Ndarain]

You're taking missions that indicate the kind of combat/trader rank you would normally expect would/should take that mission.

The game is basically telling you to expect trouble, and what kind of trouble. Yet you take the mission anyway and whine about it.

And why does your Python cost 170 million? I do these missions in one worth 90mcr, and it does the job just fine. I haven't died doing one of those missions yet, and I do a lot.

Mine's 191mil and if I die I'll eat my cpu. It's not the tool that matters, it's the hand on the tool. I only die if I try to, and not always then.

A grade, no mods below grade three, scb, and a crapload of resistance hrps. Coup de grace, I can carry 8 tons in a python.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Thank you, for the whole post. Including the last line, because apologies in these modern times are so hard to offer, and I gladly accept them!

I forgot to mention I had switched to pulse lasers (didn't take me a lot to figure out my beloved beams (I put em everywhere) were impossible to use on a Python). Moreover, if you read my first post here, I also had put in a chaff launcher which actually is the device that saved my ships in the worst situations.

In the beginning I wondered - and still wonder - why people use heatsinks when chaff launchers are so good. I can use shield cells just fine without the need to throw heatsinks.

By the way, I see you are using a 5B shield bank... why B grade? Money saving or some reason I don't know about?

Talking about instances, I get in, take 1-2 mission items, Low jump out, wait until it repops afresh (1-2 minutes), go in again and so on.


Finally, I have read this thread about post 2.1 patch Python. Apparently it looks like patch 2.1 made general purpose ships obsolete.
This greatly saddens me, as I truly loved Python with my heart, to the point I did not get a 'Conda.
I don't even understand why making general purpose ships obsolete is fair (they imply that in that thread), it reminds me about hybrid classes in MMORPGs: you cannot make viable hybrids, content is tuned to be reasonably hard for "pure" classes (ships in ED) so hybrids just aren't really viable. You roll a totally mediocre, uncompetitive class just to display some token flexibility that does not matter.
In fact, if Python is not meant do kills stuff any more (just flee), I see no reason using it over a T-7 / T-9 or using it over a pure combat ship. The former carry much more and have to flee the same way, the latter actually kills stuff.

No problem.

B rated SCBs are just reflex for me now - you get a slightly lower individual charge from each cell, but you get 5 cells instead of 4, so the overall charge is higher. It's most effective on combat ships and can probably be replaced with a lighter 5A without any drawbacks.

With regard to multi-role ships, you can, I think, have one, and the Python makes a really good one, if there's an outfitters to refit the ship for each individual role.