Odelay!
There's no dogfighting in this game and combat is god-awful...
- Thread starter fabittar
- Start date
Odelay!
I was going to write something possibly inflammatory, but I am too busy laughing.
Thanks OP.
Thanks OP.
Even ships with 10 agility can't do it quite like this. Or at least, I haven't figured it out just yet. I can get behind an Elite Anaconda, but I certainly can't stay there. Maybe with a souped up Vulture?
The other ships can however flank an Anaconda very well, but certainly not get behind it. Flanking is good enough to win a fight though. There are several ways to do this, and while I'd be willing to share them, I doubt I could describe them in words. Lots of moving parts and half of it I'm probably not aware I'm doing because its rooted in practice.
Maybe there's a simpler method someone else can describe?
The only way I know to get on an Anaconda's tail and stay there is to start the fight with them facing away. That only happens in RES or maybe Nav Beacons after a failed cargo scan.
As I recall, there was a very good video of someone taking on an Anaconda in a Sidewinder back when the more competent NPCs were introduced.
Not sure where it is offhand. I'll take a look and see if I can find it. It was more flanking and strafing though.
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This is the one I was thinking of. Looks like a bit of fun to me. [yesnod]
[video=youtube;9IQtZNvEo6w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IQtZNvEo6w[/video]
Not sure where it is offhand. I'll take a look and see if I can find it. It was more flanking and strafing though.
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This is the one I was thinking of. Looks like a bit of fun to me. [yesnod]
[video=youtube;9IQtZNvEo6w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IQtZNvEo6w[/video]
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I think I could do this now that I've learned a few tricks and how to use the engineers properly. Maybe I'll post a video since that is worth a 1000 pictures, and therefore 1,000,000 words. Assuming my card can handle it! And the fight takes less than 5 minutes ha!
I just did this in my mostly stock (eg unmodded) Viper with a C rated shield and no SCBs, in a CZ where I was taking fire from multiple other NPCs at the same time. So a Sidewinder should be easier to pull this off since it's much faster and waaaaaaayyyy more agile.
Looks about right for a Sidewinder. A bit surprised this Conda only had 2 small turrets, which really didn't fire all that much. Still very much turn fighting, but well flown by that pilot, regardless. I hope the OP can take something from it.
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I would enjoy seeing some of things you've said you were able to do in combat.
Fabittar,
Actually, if you look at a historical dogfight, you will see that a lot of the time was spent getting into position for the "killing shot". Also as to your claim David Braben is not able to make games, I suggest you download the free copy of Elite for the BBC that is available for the PC and play that until you have attained the rank of "ELITE", and then comment on David Braben's lack of knowledge regarding games (oh you will have to forget everything you know about modern games, because the original Elite was released in 1984 for the BBC Micro).
Actually, if you look at a historical dogfight, you will see that a lot of the time was spent getting into position for the "killing shot". Also as to your claim David Braben is not able to make games, I suggest you download the free copy of Elite for the BBC that is available for the PC and play that until you have attained the rank of "ELITE", and then comment on David Braben's lack of knowledge regarding games (oh you will have to forget everything you know about modern games, because the original Elite was released in 1984 for the BBC Micro).
Don't be so eager to be angry at the devs. I think the combat system in ED is actually pretty good considering that there's only so many ways to do an 'easy to learn but difficult to master' type of space combat. I think ED does a good job with the combat because they haven't turned it into an overly simplistic arcade game and neither have they gone overly complex with filling out an entire keyboard's worth of different function keys for micro managing every aspect of your ship's systems - that sounds like it would be cool but it'd be too difficult to get the hang of it all and very chaotic to manage/babysit systems while in a fight.
That's not to say that ED's combat system doesn't have problems: I mean what's up with only being able to bind 2 fire groups? In X-Wing for example you could fire each of your weapons individually or set them to fire in sequence, out of sequence, bind to a keyboard button (like for dropping mines while firing lasers or torpedoes), etc. And why can't we choose between the simpler pips system we have now and a more advanced system (if we so choose) where we can shift dynamically between putting more power to forward shields or aft shields, or take power from the utility modules and use it to boost engines? - Admittedly that could get kind of needlessly choatic... although with multicrew on the horizon
I think the combat in ED strikes a good balance between complexity and fun. The only better combat system I've seen in a space sims is that of Tie Fighter, X-wing and X-wing Alliance. Edge of Choas had something similiar to ED while Freelancer (and Dark Star One) had way more arcadey mechanics that although fun for those games wouldn't cut it for ED.
I would agree. Reverse acceleration with FA on is indeed way too fast considering every ship's engines are at the back while only thrusters are used for reversing. It's always seemed out of whack for tiny thrusters to have equal output as giant engines. With FA off it maybe becomes more plausible what with perpetual acceleration in a friction-less environment and all that but it definitely needs tweaking in my opinion.
Well CQC is part of ED. It uses the exact same engine, assets and flight mechanics. Also, we have ship launched fighters coming soon so maybe you'll have a taste of that kind of combat after all
You do mean chuckling right? Preferably in 'a' or 'THE' background
Combat really died with the introduction of special weapons mods, most of which the god damn heat cancer ones. I hear PVP is now more meta-built than ever because of it.
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As toward the horrible combat: My personal gripe is that everything flies like a fighter in an atmosphere, Even the 100+meter long ships are nothing more than large fighters; and that is foolish to say the least. That and and class one weapons shouldn't even be a threat to large ships but they own e'm. Seems FD was very keen on making the tiniest things the most dangerous as larger weapons do not have larger damage, just more armor pen, and since c1 pens small ship armor anyway, having larger weapons gives you nothing. Balance to them is "We like fighters, screw the big ships".
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As toward the horrible combat: My personal gripe is that everything flies like a fighter in an atmosphere, Even the 100+meter long ships are nothing more than large fighters; and that is foolish to say the least. That and and class one weapons shouldn't even be a threat to large ships but they own e'm. Seems FD was very keen on making the tiniest things the most dangerous as larger weapons do not have larger damage, just more armor pen, and since c1 pens small ship armor anyway, having larger weapons gives you nothing. Balance to them is "We like fighters, screw the big ships".
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The ships in CQC have slightely different flight model afaik.
@OP
please read the point 2 of this article http://www.defenceaviation.com/2010/10/top-5-dogfights-in-history.html
or here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogfight#Strategies_for_fighter_development where they mention that most countries went for power because dogfights have often become fight of who gets to climb faster so they can joust from above.
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I do wish that the things the game describes as capital ship weapons, actually felt like capital ship weapons. How cool would it be if huge beam weapons behaved like beam cannons from Freespace 2? (skip to around 2:40 for some beam cannon fire)
[video=youtube_share;dIN9D6iU_94]https://youtu.be/dIN9D6iU_94?t=2m40s[/video]
It does feel like a lot of things in Elite: Dangerous don't scale consistently, with the result that big ships end up not feeling that big.
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It's a fun video, but that flying was hardly remarkable. The Conda was barely turning - as evidenced by zero PIPS in the Sidewinder's ENG much of the time - AND it barely fought back. Often it seemed to fire no weapons at all, and when it did, it looked like small turrets. So - not much to take from that one.
It's really simple IMHO: the type of combat the OP is seeking exists only in CQC. Combat in the main game is much slower paced; the ships are nowhere as maneuverable or fun to fly. Even the main game Eagle feels sluggish compared to its CQC counterpart. My heart beats a bit faster in CQC. I practically have to use toothpicks to keep my eyes in open during main game combat. Unless I go into a battle substantially under gunned. But there the challenge is less about ace flying skills, and more about patience and luck. And I'm not suggesting I'm a great pilot by any stretch. I'm probably average. But that doesn't negate the fact that combat in CQC and main game are totally different animals.
Perhaps someone can prove me wrong by posting a video of them fighting in an Elite Anaconda that's actually fighting back; while they're flying like a bat out of a hell in a Sidey or Eagle. Those sorts of battles are an every minute occurrence in CQC.
When I think about it, CQC feels a lot like Elite when it was premium beta. Sure, CQC is faster, but back in PB days there were only a handful of small ships and weapons available, no SCBs or shield boosters, no Engineers mods. Every battle felt reasonably fair and even. It was a lot of fun.
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Every time I hear how Modder think so much of themselves that they make games great, and the only ones that know what real fun or engagement or depth is, I think
Here is Kick Starter
https://www.kickstarter.com/learn?ref=nav
Make a Pitch
Put those awesome modding skills to work making your own super game
I was just going by memory. I didn't make the video. This was back when the NPC were "impossible," according to some. I have no real frame of reference really as I've never had too much trouble with them, unless I bite off more than I can chew and forget to run away. But then, I go exploring in a combat loaded Vulture primarily.
Maybe Ziljan can hook us up with a better video. I'm still on my way back from Jaques and haven't really messed around much with game recording. Would likely need to install Nvidia Experience, etc. I'm also a survivalist in the game.
Some of Isinona's videos are pretty cool to watch. Maybe check some of them out.
[video=youtube;iTstfHpCyU4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTstfHpCyU4[/video]
Cheers.
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The problem with abolishing reverski completely is that FDev would at the same time have to do a complete redesign of the big ships' other combat properties in order to make them more than helpless in a 1v1.
This is why I suggest that a more modest reduction of approximately one-third in maximum reverse speeds might improve combat whilst retaining overall balance.
What, you don't like flying in endless circles? They made it like this to avoid "turrets in space". I actually think turrets is space might be fun if FA off worked properly, but as it is, it's too much trouble. You're right that current FA off is dumb. Your throttle should be independent of your direction which is one of the reasons I rarely use it.
The other problem with removing reverse thrust entirely is we can still use FA-Off to fly backwards, so the only real difference is we'd have to turn our ships around to stop when docking at stations.
As it stands right now, simply nerfing the maneuvering characteristics of bigger ships wouldn't do any good. They're still built like dogfighters, and cutting down their maneuverability would only serve to make them helpless (because their weapon placement/capabilities and maneuvering capabilities would be at odds with each other). FD have pretty much painted themselves into a corner here, so we're basically stuck with what we've got unless they decide to overhaul their ship designs from the ground up.
As it stands right now, simply nerfing the maneuvering characteristics of bigger ships wouldn't do any good. They're still built like dogfighters, and cutting down their maneuverability would only serve to make them helpless (because their weapon placement/capabilities and maneuvering capabilities would be at odds with each other). FD have pretty much painted themselves into a corner here, so we're basically stuck with what we've got unless they decide to overhaul their ship designs from the ground up.
I don't know, L5 FSD to get to conflicts faster with your ship of choice is kinda nice. Though, sadly, pointless soon...
Z...
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Actually, I agree with you. I find CQC quite fun, and even against higher level players, I don't feel seriously outgunned, if I get a good position, I still have a good chance of taking the kill. the only issue with CQC, is that it's not really part of the main game. If it were something you had to fly to, dock at the station and then join in, I'd probably play more. Whilst waiting for rares or missions to spawn, for example. Though I do understand why FD chose ot make it a seperate thing.
Z...
They should seperate out different types of fighters. What we have now, due to the nature of ED and the authors wanting you to see all the pretty ships, is a huge focus on dogfighting and turn fighting. What should be done at this point, since things are getting weird and way to dizzy, is introduce the American's world war II concept for Zoom and Boom fighters. Beef up the engines on things like the Python, FDL, and Anaconda. Make them the zoom and boom type fighters, they take passes at things, but turn slowly and if improperly positioned can be caught up too and outmaneuvered by more agile craft. Maybe make the power core a little easier to take out, or the drives, so those more agile craft have a specific method with which they can fight back against the tactic.
Drag them onto the same playing field with precise fire. Their turning capacity during boost should also be restricted, to more solidly adapt them to this gameplay style. Instead of a boost increasing their turn speed, their 'zoom' speed locks them in fairly hard to a heading. Giving only enough room to adjust aim on a pass, though a skillful practitioner may set it up with F/A off so they can strafe past sideways raking their target. And be positioned possibly for a quick second pass, though killing inertia too early around something like an Eagle could be a quick problem. But overall the ships need a rebalance to be more well defined into their roles, though with other things I'd advocate more flexibility. All ships should be able to fit, for instance, fuel limpets and cargo limpets are part of their standard equipment. Without sacrificing combat potential.
Eugh, just dipping my head into this makes me want to off and get a spreadsheet and start laying out 'how it should be, maybe, if the community agree's", though I have so little faith in Frontier that I hardly think it even worth doing. That said, I've started pouring through it all anyways right now and I'll probably post it all up a little later.
But yeah, as a few forward thoughts. The Eagle, the Eagle is everybodies interceptor. And A - Class fitted Eagle should be able to catch up to anything, even before the Engineer Upgrades, and only an Engineer upgraded ship should be able to outrun such a standard Eagle. This isn't a highly threatening ship, or a highly desireable ship right now. Lets strengthen its role as in Interceptor and a chaser. And, lets be honest, most ships should be able to deal with a single Eagle, with the exception of pure trade ships. And for other situations its speed and maneuverability would serve much better as a harasser. Don't make a lot of cash being a harasser though, hehe. Unless you're bounty farming and you're just getting your tags in and staying out of the way to make your $$$$. Legitimate but kinda boring, it'd be nice to have a little more punching power. But I'd take just being able to stay on my target.
The Cobra should remain, with the exception of the Eagle, the Lord of its Domain. Its one of the most popular early pirate vessels for a reason. Whatever adjustments needed to keep it in its catagory should be made. However, its more heavily armored cousin needs a little more speed. Or a little more maneuverability. It has neither the ability to chase or run, nor does it fully support the ability to swiftly kill. Its a slightly punch baggier version of the Cobra, that's meant to have more teeth. It'd have more teeth if it still had its speed.
If the Courier and the Dropship are meant to counterbalance eachother, some more balance is needed. The Dropship/Assault Ship those things are the destroyers of worlds. Drop one or two of their weapon slots a size class please, or maybe boost the Courier in some way to make it a little more able to deal with the dropships crazy weapon load. Maybe give it more lateral thrust to make it a better dodging craft. Note on the Imperial Eagle, also needs its maneuverability bumped up. That ship isn't nearly maneuverable enough to justify its frailty.
In reference to General Purpose Ships, these things should be perfectly capable fighters/traders/explorers if well fitted to the roll. We have many slots, let us fit secondary shield generators plox? Maybe restrict them always to being a size class lower than the prior one. Obviously this would only work on some general purpose ships.
The Viper MKIII and Viper MKIV, oh man. Alright so the Viper Mark III needs a little more flexability. I mean, the ability to fit a kill warrant scanner and still be effective would be oh so nice. Also, it currently lacks finishing power a lot of the time. Another upgrade for the power distributor would really help balance this thing out. I mean, if I can stay on his tail for ten minutes, lemme just kill him right? No point dragging this out to a 20 minute battle, accounting for the occasional F-up and waiting for my weapons to recharge all the time. Also the Viper MKIV suffers from pretty much the same issues as the Cobra's more advanced varient. Its reduction in speed hurts, but its really its lack of maneuverability that makes it useless. It has some more armor than the MKIII, but less speed, less maneuverability, and the same amount of weapons. And less ability to point them where they need to be, so less combat potential than its progenitor. I mean you could turn this one into a zoom and boom, or a turn fighter. Either way would be better than it is now. I mean come on, its smaller than an Asp Explorer and it turns slower than one. You g kidding me?
The Imperial Clipper needs a maneuverability boost. Its 2. 2. The python turns at 6. Thats the same as an Asp Explorer for gods sakes. If anything this is the thing that should be maneuverability four, like the viper mkIV. This should also be one of the ones that boasts the capacity to use two shield generators, sacrificing any semblance of real cargo space for combat potential.
Anaconda, Corvette, Cutter, yeah those maneuverabilities should be two. But their powerful primary drives should give them an advantage of top speed over basically everything save interceptor ships. (Eagle and Empire/Federation Specific Fighters) But their acceleration to said speeds should take a long time. So their have to carefully set up their runs, or risk being set upon and having their drives damaged and forced into the disadvantageous dogfight situations.
Oh and one more thing. An auto power balancer would be really cool. To make it too smart, but it'd be a nice little gixmo. Like a docking computer, something helpful that you actually seriously consider sacrificing a slot into to make your life easier. Taking shots, puts pips to shots until you stop taking fire. Firing, pips to firing! Gone 30+ seconds without firing or taking damage? Pips to Engines! Boosting? Pips to engines! Overrides to whatever setting you want it at, reset it to functioning with the rebalance power option. Sets to working for you again.
Oh and Freighters should also be under the high top speed, slow acceleration category. So you want something quick, or an Interceptor, to be messing with them in interstellar space. Should probably be easiest to go for the cargo hatch to actually get times, and you can whack the pinata until it gets away, with a clever pilot putting the cargo hatch on the opposite side of the ship from you as he boosts to max speed slowly, to prevent you from getting as much as possible.
Drag them onto the same playing field with precise fire. Their turning capacity during boost should also be restricted, to more solidly adapt them to this gameplay style. Instead of a boost increasing their turn speed, their 'zoom' speed locks them in fairly hard to a heading. Giving only enough room to adjust aim on a pass, though a skillful practitioner may set it up with F/A off so they can strafe past sideways raking their target. And be positioned possibly for a quick second pass, though killing inertia too early around something like an Eagle could be a quick problem. But overall the ships need a rebalance to be more well defined into their roles, though with other things I'd advocate more flexibility. All ships should be able to fit, for instance, fuel limpets and cargo limpets are part of their standard equipment. Without sacrificing combat potential.
Eugh, just dipping my head into this makes me want to off and get a spreadsheet and start laying out 'how it should be, maybe, if the community agree's", though I have so little faith in Frontier that I hardly think it even worth doing. That said, I've started pouring through it all anyways right now and I'll probably post it all up a little later.
But yeah, as a few forward thoughts. The Eagle, the Eagle is everybodies interceptor. And A - Class fitted Eagle should be able to catch up to anything, even before the Engineer Upgrades, and only an Engineer upgraded ship should be able to outrun such a standard Eagle. This isn't a highly threatening ship, or a highly desireable ship right now. Lets strengthen its role as in Interceptor and a chaser. And, lets be honest, most ships should be able to deal with a single Eagle, with the exception of pure trade ships. And for other situations its speed and maneuverability would serve much better as a harasser. Don't make a lot of cash being a harasser though, hehe. Unless you're bounty farming and you're just getting your tags in and staying out of the way to make your $$$$. Legitimate but kinda boring, it'd be nice to have a little more punching power. But I'd take just being able to stay on my target.
The Cobra should remain, with the exception of the Eagle, the Lord of its Domain. Its one of the most popular early pirate vessels for a reason. Whatever adjustments needed to keep it in its catagory should be made. However, its more heavily armored cousin needs a little more speed. Or a little more maneuverability. It has neither the ability to chase or run, nor does it fully support the ability to swiftly kill. Its a slightly punch baggier version of the Cobra, that's meant to have more teeth. It'd have more teeth if it still had its speed.
If the Courier and the Dropship are meant to counterbalance eachother, some more balance is needed. The Dropship/Assault Ship those things are the destroyers of worlds. Drop one or two of their weapon slots a size class please, or maybe boost the Courier in some way to make it a little more able to deal with the dropships crazy weapon load. Maybe give it more lateral thrust to make it a better dodging craft. Note on the Imperial Eagle, also needs its maneuverability bumped up. That ship isn't nearly maneuverable enough to justify its frailty.
In reference to General Purpose Ships, these things should be perfectly capable fighters/traders/explorers if well fitted to the roll. We have many slots, let us fit secondary shield generators plox? Maybe restrict them always to being a size class lower than the prior one. Obviously this would only work on some general purpose ships.
The Viper MKIII and Viper MKIV, oh man. Alright so the Viper Mark III needs a little more flexability. I mean, the ability to fit a kill warrant scanner and still be effective would be oh so nice. Also, it currently lacks finishing power a lot of the time. Another upgrade for the power distributor would really help balance this thing out. I mean, if I can stay on his tail for ten minutes, lemme just kill him right? No point dragging this out to a 20 minute battle, accounting for the occasional F-up and waiting for my weapons to recharge all the time. Also the Viper MKIV suffers from pretty much the same issues as the Cobra's more advanced varient. Its reduction in speed hurts, but its really its lack of maneuverability that makes it useless. It has some more armor than the MKIII, but less speed, less maneuverability, and the same amount of weapons. And less ability to point them where they need to be, so less combat potential than its progenitor. I mean you could turn this one into a zoom and boom, or a turn fighter. Either way would be better than it is now. I mean come on, its smaller than an Asp Explorer and it turns slower than one. You g kidding me?
The Imperial Clipper needs a maneuverability boost. Its 2. 2. The python turns at 6. Thats the same as an Asp Explorer for gods sakes. If anything this is the thing that should be maneuverability four, like the viper mkIV. This should also be one of the ones that boasts the capacity to use two shield generators, sacrificing any semblance of real cargo space for combat potential.
Anaconda, Corvette, Cutter, yeah those maneuverabilities should be two. But their powerful primary drives should give them an advantage of top speed over basically everything save interceptor ships. (Eagle and Empire/Federation Specific Fighters) But their acceleration to said speeds should take a long time. So their have to carefully set up their runs, or risk being set upon and having their drives damaged and forced into the disadvantageous dogfight situations.
Oh and one more thing. An auto power balancer would be really cool. To make it too smart, but it'd be a nice little gixmo. Like a docking computer, something helpful that you actually seriously consider sacrificing a slot into to make your life easier. Taking shots, puts pips to shots until you stop taking fire. Firing, pips to firing! Gone 30+ seconds without firing or taking damage? Pips to Engines! Boosting? Pips to engines! Overrides to whatever setting you want it at, reset it to functioning with the rebalance power option. Sets to working for you again.
Oh and Freighters should also be under the high top speed, slow acceleration category. So you want something quick, or an Interceptor, to be messing with them in interstellar space. Should probably be easiest to go for the cargo hatch to actually get times, and you can whack the pinata until it gets away, with a clever pilot putting the cargo hatch on the opposite side of the ship from you as he boosts to max speed slowly, to prevent you from getting as much as possible.
This is an interesting statement. What do you mean by it? I'm unclear.