The Galaxy - Is its size now considered to be a barrier to gameplay by the Developers?

[Adept]

Actually, so would I, as long as they rebalanced the payments. Making it take longer to do the scanning, if the gameplay was good, would be great: but only as long as they increased the payments. Exploring is already very badly paid compared with other stuff. Indeed, given how slow and clunky the exploration data selling interface is, you can probably earn as much doing the pseudo-exploit de jour (Sothis mission stacking, I believe) for 5 hours as you get selling data for 5 hours that took you many months to gather.

Exploration is like trading currently. Both suffer badly from the Agile curse of minimal implementation. Neither is even close to worthy of the scope and ambition of this game. You can trade and you can explore, but the mechanics are extremely simplistic and boring with practically no depth or skill element involved

I don't claim to be the best designer in the world, but I swear I could design a better system in a weekend, and indeed have.

 

[oscarolim]

I'm sure there's quite a few developers on these forums.
why don't you all get together, and start developing a game based on what you think it should be? Surely it would sell like hot cakes and make you rich beyoind your wildest dreams, right?
Or most likely it would be a massive flop and you would become homeless.
Seriously, some people must still believe money grows on trees or something.

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

Exploration is like trading currently. Both suffer badly from the Agile curse of minimal implementation. Neither is even close to worthy of the scope and ambition of this game. You can trade and you can explore, but the mechanics are extremely simplistic and boring with practically no depth or skill element involved

I don't claim to be the best designer in the world, but I swear I could design a better system in a weekend, and indeed have.

As indeed FD can: just look at the DDF for exploration, and weep.

 

[Godsailsaqueen]

Exploration is like trading currently. Both suffer badly from the Agile curse of minimal implementation. Neither is even close to worthy of the scope and ambition of this game. You can trade and you can explore, but the mechanics are extremely simplistic and boring with practically no depth or skill element involved

I don't claim to be the best designer in the world, but I swear I could design a better system in a weekend, and indeed have.

There's actually a little need to know how the game works in order to find trade routes - if you don't use 3rd party sites. It can be a bit rewarding sometimes, but it's nothing too rich.
But I'm with you for exploration matters... You really have so few things to do, I fell asleep on my keyboard quite a few times while supercruising. Neutron star utility is a good start to make navigation more worthwhile, but we really need more exploration modules - and more active ones.

 

[Adept]

As indeed FD can: just look at the DDF for exploration, and weep.

I have, and I do indeed feel sad for the choices done in the implementation. Minimal implementation placeholders have their place, but you need to come back to those features and enhance them. There hasn't been much of that happening

 

[djadjok]

And again... Competitive players will utilise whatever gameplay mechanics are available to 'win' instant transfer will be universally accessible.
...
CGs have limitless amounts of cookies. Everyone gets a share. No impact here.
30 minute delay on ship transfer or instant.
It makes no difference.

Sorry, FALSE
You've already omitted some important "side notes" in my post
Time crucial CG's - yes, this does exist. Also, CG'a with amout of cookies very limited does exist also.
More, sometimes they are the most important (or more influencing)? the most crucial regarding in-game story development.
(No, I'm not speaking about ususal CG's that most part of players uses as a perfect grinf mechanics)
Regard some key events for community, like Dangerous Games or forthcoming search for the unknown.
Time facror is crucial. Ok-ok, all can use "instant" feature
Timezome factor starts to be more important. At the extent to become a crucial factor, favoring those who lives a bit to the east of "event" generator (primetime).

 

[Soliluna]

YES!! INSTANT transfer of Ships!
Screw the "WE WANT IMMERSION" crowing! You can die and instantly arrive in a brand new ship, maybe tens of thousands of light years away - but pulling ships instantly is an "Immersion Killer" to some commanders! I think half the reason we have so much grind in ED is because of nutty commanders and their concept of "fun"

I think you're right about nutty commanders and their concept of fun - but I don't think those wanting immersion are to blame for that. Grind is a gameplay feature, not a realism feature. It is all about controlling how quickly you progress through the game.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

You think maybe they'll change Formula 1 rules so Delorean can finally compete? After all, doesn't seem fair that Mercedes and Ferrari has all the money.

They actually do do this, all the time, that's a really poor example. The reason they throttle development on cars and impose limits is because F1 would become a race with only a couple of constructors - those with the excessive funding to really push R&D.

 

[jprelph]

And again... Competitive players will utilise whatever gameplay mechanics are available to 'win' instant transfer will be universally accessible.
Powerplay revolves around 7 days. No impact here.
CGs have limitless amounts of cookies. Everyone gets a share. No impact here.
30 minute delay on ship transfer or instant.
It makes no difference.

PowerPlay is a 7 day cycle but if you can increase your fortification/prep/expansion time by using a transfer-taxi system then that does affect gameplay, and not all powers expand in the same way - so the transfer is really only a bonus for those powers who expand via shipping items rather than through combat. Similarly it allows powers to be more defensive because they can more widely fortify in the time available but it does little to allow more widespread undermining (although it makes it theoretically easier for snipe UM attacks which aren't universally popular anyway).

The introduction of even a minor delay (say 5 minutes for a 100ly transfer) removed the advantage of a taxi-transfer loop because it becomes as quick to simply fly your T9/Cutter back. Using a T9 for an example Rhea > Shenggan fort run (Winters) with an Asp return I think you can cut 5 minutes off each trip, allowing one extra run per hour. A 30% increase in fortification is going to change how PP works and I think there are similar issues in other areas. It's not just a simple QoL patch or something that (for instance) PP players could ignore because it will affect their gameplay whether they used it or not.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

I have awoken, back to business!

Here's why I think Ship Rentals don't mitigate a timely no ship retrieval scenario.

1) Unless every station is like Jameson Memorial, you're not going to be getting the ship you need, but you might get something close...maybe. Unless we can rent a 'clone' of one of our ships, no dice.

2) RNGineers: My ships are pimped out man, I got them set up with some decent aftermarket equipment that make them all awesome at what they do. Unless we can rent a 'clone' of one of our ships, no dice.

3) Like the late-great Scotty once said, "I know this ship like the back of my hand!" My ships are an extension of myself. A cobbled together rent-a-truck just isn't going to cut it! Unless we can rent a 'clone' of one of our ships, no dice.

Ship Rentals sound awesome, I hope it gets implemented, but a ship retrieval replacement, it is not.

I think with the currently suggested implementation every station with a shipyard is like Jameson. FD will be providing a clone given their explanation. So essentially you aren't getting your ship but a carefully constructed replica and Scotty would be able tell the difference.

You still get owned ship retrieval but with a normal delay. The rentals are for the immediate need to mitigate the wait.

I could see two solutions:

1. Players accept some ship variations for the sake of immediacy until their real ship is delivered. No, not a complete replica but it gets the job done for the sake of timeliness.

2. Players accept that the rental facility is capable of outfitting a ship matching the exact specs of a ship the player already has in their stable. With 3D printing capability this isn't a stretch.

The consessions in these cases could be:

For accepting #1 players get a lower rental fee and accessibility beyond stations with shipyards. Ships you don't currently own could be rented as well for normal periods.

For accepting #2 players pay comparable fees to instant transfers and only stations have the size to deliver custom outfitted ships. Ships you don't currently own could be available but for very limited periods, try before you buy.

In both scenarios mods should be available since the facilities can source them like players do, this could lead to additional game play options as players could be given missions to work with Engineers and deliver the mods to the requesting facility.

Full owned ship retrieval and fleet management would be accomplished by a separate mechanism. This mechanism, while not instant, would allow for point to point and multiple ship movements. You aren't limited to moving ship A to your current location. You could move 1 or more ships to your current location, a future location or various locations.

 

[Jypson]

I think with the currently suggested implementation every station with a shipyard is like Jameson. FD will be providing a clone given their explanation. So essentially you aren't getting your ship but a carefully constructed replica and Scotty would be able tell the difference.

You still get owned ship retrieval but with a normal delay. The rentals are for the immediate need to mitigate the wait.

I could see two solutions:

1. Players accept some ship variations for the sake of immediacy until their real ship is delivered. No, not a complete replica but it gets the job done for the sake of timeliness.

2. Players accept that the rental facility is capable of outfitting a ship matching the exact specs of a ship the player already has in their stable. With 3D printing capability this isn't a stretch.

The consessions in these cases could be:

For accepting #1 players get a lower rental fee and accessibility beyond stations with shipyards. Ships you don't currently own could be rented as well for normal periods.

For accepting #2 players pay comparable fees to instant transfers and only stations have the size to deliver custom outfitted ships. Ships you don't currently own could be available but for very limited periods, try before you buy.

In both scenarios mods should be available since the facilities can source them like players do, this could lead to additional game play options as players could be given missions to work with Engineers and deliver the mods to the requesting facility.

Full owned ship retrieval and fleet management would be accomplished by a separate mechanism. This mechanism, while not instant, would allow for point to point and multiple ship movements. You aren't limited to moving ship A to your current location. You could move 1 or more ships to your current location, a future location or various locations.

I would of course go with option 2, even with the concessions you stated since it's essentially a clone. At the end of the day though, why not just have instant ship transfers beyond immersion/RP reasons?

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

I would of course go with option 2, even with the concessions you stated since it's essentially a clone. At the end of the day though, why not just have instant ship transfers beyond immersion/RP reasons?

Because you get the best of both worlds and more!

You get your instant transfer, essentially, but you save the lore and immersion for those players that hold it important.

You also get added gameplay in the form of ship rentals that can include ships you don't own.

You also get added future gameplay in the form of missions or contracts with the rental facility contacts, just like another faction.

Those missions or contracts should include tie-ins to the engineers for sourcing mods for rental ships.

You also get enhanced ship transportation and fleet management, at lower cost than the currently proposed implementation. This rewards players that want to plan ahead. This can also lead to future gameplay in the form of taking delivery missions with ship transport service contracts.

Finally, while I'm against instant ship transports as currently imagined, I'm willing to accept it in a virtual sense if the implementation is consistent with the current game world and leads to future gameplay and content development.

This ship rental facility shouldn't be too much more difficult to implement than instant ship transfers. At least not in a 1st pass. It might require waiting until 2.3 for full implementation and for now we just call summoning your ship for a fee a ship rental without the in-game infrastructure.

 

[Jypson]

Because you get the best of both worlds and more!

You get your instant transfer, essentially, but you save the lore and immersion for those players that hold it important.

You also get added gameplay in the form of ship rentals that can include ships you don't own.

You also get added future gameplay in the form of missions or contracts with the rental facility contacts, just like another faction.

Those missions or contracts should include tie-ins to the engineers for sourcing mods for rental ships.

You also get enhanced ship transportation and fleet management, at lower cost than the currently proposed implementation. This rewards players that want to plan ahead. This can also lead to future gameplay in the form of taking delivery missions with ship transport service contracts.

Finally, while I'm against instant ship transports as currently imagined, I'm willing to accept it in a virtual sense if the implementation is consistent with the current game world and leads to future gameplay and content development.

This ship rental facility shouldn't be too much more difficult to implement than instant ship transfers. At least not in a 1st pass. It might require waiting until 2.3 for full implementation and for now we just call summoning your ship for a fee a ship rental without the in-game infrastructure.

If all of that means I get the ship that I want at the click of a button (even if it's a clone), you got my vote [up]

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

If all of that means I get the ship that I want at the click of a button (even if it's a clone), you got my vote [up]

And that's why I'm trying to push this idea, I don't think most players are really at as much of an impass as they believe.

I also think that, in the small cases where FD might need to make tweaks to the implementation to cut out any possible exploits, they have a much finer grained way of controlling the implementation.

Today they have mentioned possible cost and distance limitations if they see the need to put some brakes on the transfer. I could see them saying that in certain system states factions maintain some control over the rental facility. That might mean finding a station outside the current system to pickup your ship and jumping into a contested zone. That's just one thought on the matter and those decisions would be made by FD.

Now the $100,000 question: How do I convince the developers to even consider this a workable alternative?

It entirely possible that with 2.2 they could start with calling ship transfers as rentals until the coding is in place to make a rental interface possible.

 

[Soliluna]

And that's why I'm trying to push this idea, I don't think most players are really at as much of an impass as they believe.

I also think that, in the small cases where FD might need to make tweaks to the implementation to cut out any possible exploits, they have a much finer grained way of controlling the implementation.

Today they have mentioned possible cost and distance limitations if they see the need to put some brakes on the transfer. I could see them saying that in certain system states factions maintain some control over the rental facility. That might mean finding a station outside the current system to pickup your ship and jumping into a contested zone. That's just one thought on the matter and those decisions would be made by FD.

Now the $100,000 question: How do I convince the developers to even consider this a workable alternative?

It entirely possible that with 2.2 they could start with calling ship transfers as rentals until the coding is in place to make a rental interface possible.

Have been saying this myself, first thing I thought of - rentals. I'm sure the devs have picked up on it, but I'd be interested in hearing their thoughts on the matter.

 

[GraXXoR]

I have, and I do indeed feel sad for the choices done in the implementation. Minimal implementation placeholders have their place, but you need to come back to those features and enhance them. There hasn't been much of that happening

No, because they've been to busy implementing stuff that was not on the DDF.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

Have been saying this myself, first thing I thought of - rentals. I'm sure the devs have picked up on it, but I'd be interested in hearing their thoughts on the matter.

Good, at least that's 2 of us! And I've convinced one other that wanted instant transfers that an alternative was possible.

I think another key idea is fleet management, not my idea as the remember a thread specifically asking for this.

I'm trying to cheerlead these ideas so that they lead to more gameplay. Spread the word!!

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

Consider forums is very small part of community and that FD have full feedback from all kinds of players.

I often wonder about this. Does FD support get 100,000s of requests from players to simply move their ship someplace so they can wing up with friends? If that's the case, how do we know that there aren't also 100,000s of players that are happy with the current travel based playstyle and never contact support?

I play with a co-worker from time to time and he's not the least bit invested in the game, he likes to go in and do a few activities from time to time. He's also a big player of FtP games like World of Tanks but never buys anything; probably not the kind of customer FD needs to court. But we didn't have any trouble winging up even though we were over 300 ly apart, we both found an activity in between to meet up at, we each got interdicted, he got his ship destroyed, we did some refueling and scooping along the way. We experienced the travel and had fun along the journey, granted that would likely happen with or without instant ship delivery. Regardless, with ship transfers, we would need to travel someplace to get a ship we wanted to use, get a ship delivered, then meet up. I don't think much would change for us, we would likely have the same experiences. Of course I don't think I would purchase a combat only oriented ship with an extremely limited FSD range.

 

[Dizzy B High]

I Think Being able to transport a ship to a particular location is a brilliant idea.

Doing it instantly is Immersion Breaking, should be you have to wait a period of time per light year say 10 seconds or something, so a ship 6 light years away would take 1 min for the ship to arrive (maybe that figure need to played with but you get the idea)
Do whatever you want in that time, plan ahead if you want do a particular thing when you log on next ask for the transfer when you log off the day before and its the.re waiting for you.

There should also be a timer so you can only transfer a ship once a week or something.

The game needs this but it needs to be properly implemented, something FDEV have a real bad track record off.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

I Think Being able to transport a ship to a particular location is a brilliant idea.

Doing it instantly is Immersion Breaking, should be you have to wait a period of time per light year say 10 seconds or something, so a ship 6 light years away would take 1 min for the ship to arrive (maybe that figure need to played with but you get the idea)
Do whatever you want in that time, plan ahead if you want do a particular thing when you log on next ask for the transfer when you log off the day before and its the.re waiting for you.

There should also be a timer so you can only transfer a ship once a week or something.

The game needs this but it needs to be properly implemented, something FDEV have a real bad track record off.

I've come around to the idea that instant isn't immersion breaking if we don't think of it as instant. I say that since instead of coming up with an in-game explanation of how your ship was either teleported or 3D printed and somehow replicated down to the quantum level, I think that ship rentals would suffice as an in-game explanation. Yes, you would rent a ship that is a complete copy of the ship you need including engineered mods but that's easier to explain or handwave away than replicating a ship from scratch. As someone else pointed out, if you dock your ship with massive damage, do you get those repaired for free when you "transfer" or does the replication replicate all the flaws as well? There's no difficulty explaining how a rental agency has a ship that is "nearly" identical to a ship you own and I'm sure they would offer engineered mods that are "perfectly close" to mods you own.

Additionally, if rentals are found to be exploitable, whether true or false, as instant ship transfers are suspected by some players, rentals give FD greater abilities to limit exploits beyond the stated cost/distance controls. I'll leave that up to the reader or FD to decide how that would be implemented although I have my own ideas.

First stage all FD needs to do is explain that it's not a transfer but a rental; this should only require some in-game text changes to the mechanism. Your original ship stays where it is and for 2.2 we just assume no required return date. First scenario: If you take the "rental" to any shipyard and switch to any owned ship the rental is returned. Second scenario: If you switch to another "rental" the previously rented ship is returned. Third scenario: You buy a new ship while in a "rental" and when you switch to the new owned ship the rental is returned. This will likely not require significant coding changes since in the currently described implementation your original ship needs to be "dismantled" anyway. Either way the server has to account for the gain of 1 ship and the loss of another ship elsewhere.​

Second stage FD can add rental periods based on fees with fines and wanted status for not returning the rented ship. They can also add contracts with the rental agency to source ships and create mods for those ships. This adds to additional gameplay and a tie-in with the Engineers.​

Final stage would be a full fleet management service in-game to move any owned ship from any location to another location with the proper landing pad or hanger. This can add to gameplay in missions to destroy or pirate transport ships, especially if they are military convoys pretending to be civilian ship movements. It could also add gameplay in the possibility of players buying large transport vessels and taking missions to deliver ships from base to base. It could also add mission to deliver 1 ship from one location to another as a courier mission.​

 

[kofeyh]

Frontier support are probably sick of transporting ships all over the shop because commanders can't do this themselves. I would be interested as to how many people who are against it for "immersion" reasons have ever had frontier support move a ship, for any reason.

Or better still, would be prepared to admit they have. Just curious.