To all those moaning about being killed around Jaques bu other players.

[Luna Valenwood]

I'll be honest, while being killed in the black as an explorer is a pretty horrible feeling to put it nicely. It may at least be worth trying out what some people in this thread have suggested and to prepare you ship accordingly. Bring a Power distributor that allows for boost, a small shield maybe. I used a 3D it's not much but it will certainly give me a bit more time to high wake away or make mistakes when docking. Maybe a few multi cannons or pulse lasers if you are feeling risky or just want the added protection. Personally though as a fellow explorer I will agree that we need something to spice up the mindless jonking but it seems Horizons is aimed at adding more to exploration so hopefully we will see something interesting from that.

I do have to ask though what do you mean exactly by combat ships shouldn't be able to get out into the black? From what I have read it's just not clear to some exactly what you mean, as in do you mean reducing combat ship ranges even more or something entirely different?

 

[SkipRat]

I'll be honest, while being killed in the black as an explorer is a pretty horrible feeling to put it nicely. It may at least be worth trying out what some people in this thread have suggested and to prepare you ship accordingly. Bring a Power distributor that allows for boost, a small shield maybe. I used a 3D it's not much but it will certainly give me a bit more time to high wake away or make mistakes when docking. Maybe a few multi cannons or pulse lasers if you are feeling risky or just want the added protection. Personally though as a fellow explorer I will agree that we need something to spice up the mindless jonking but it seems Horizons is aimed at adding more to exploration so hopefully we will see something interesting from that.

I do have to ask though what do you mean exactly by combat ships shouldn't be able to get out into the black? From what I have read it's just not clear to some exactly what you mean, as in do you mean reducing combat ship ranges even more or something entirely different?

Do think think a FDL, which is designed to to be a combat ship and one the best should be able to make it 22,000 light years into the void just like a specially designed explorer ship?

And the point being that deep space explorers should not be worried about players in FDL killing people for the fun of it, 22,000 light years from home. Explorers should be worried about the dangers of exploring.

Because all Frontier have done to the universe, is create a children's play ground, devoid of any real substance, because of the fatel flaws in the games mechanics that allow players in FDL's to kill explorers in the deep of space.

 

[DragoonKnight]

Yes, there is totally a missed opportunity regarding ship specialization for activities.

And IMHO, there are very easy way to implement such filtering. Some basic ideas:

- Making any travel further than 1000 Light-Year without stop at station for repair have significant Hull AND Module damage (Shield, Distributor, Weapon equipped), unless an AMFU is equipped and powered
- A specialized bulkhead (let's call it Meta-Alloys), taking increased damage from weapon but preventing Hull damage from deep-space traveling

And they could push-it further introducing Exploration/long range specific Utilities equipment, engineering mods or even some Exploration specific Class Internals (like the Enhanced Performance Thrusters)

That would add more depth in the gameplay and reduce probability of having Specialized Combat Engineered ships wrecking havoc in places they shouldn't have been able to reach in the first place.

What's the logic of having Exploration ships getting wrecked in Combat, but Combat ships not being wrecked by Exploration?

That last paragraph makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

They may no be "classes", but they have all been designed with specific roles in mind.

Would you be so kind as to list what you think each ship should be/do, for the sake of the discussion ? It may help people understand better where you are coming from with your logic. (FWIW I don't agree that ships really are specifically "anything" other than hulls you fill with stuff .. some maybe better suited for some roles, yes, like having better gun mounts; or FSD drives; etc; but with engineering you can make any ship do anything)

To help cut/paste the following:

Spoiler

Adder
Anaconda
Asp Explorer
Asp Scout
Cobra MkIII
Cobra MkIV
Diamondback Explorer
Diamondback Scout
Eagle
F63 Condor (CQC only)
Federal Assault Ship
Federal Corvette
Federal Dropship
Federal Gunship
Fer-de-Lance
Hauler
Imperial Clipper
Imperial Courier
Imperial Cutter
Imperial Eagle
Imperial Fighter (CQC Only)
Keelback
Orca
Python
Sidewinder MkI
Type-6 Transporter
Type-7 Transporter
Type-9 Heavy
Viper MkIII
Viper MkIV
Vulture

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I'm really surprised mindless griefers are that far out at Jaques, because getting there requires a lot of mind control and dedication.

It's about having power over someone else. For some people this is very important. The impact at Jacques is the biggest. Add those up and that's reason enough for pillocks to fly to Jacques. There is a correlation with these people and wanting guilds to blockade stuff.

 

[DragoonKnight]

I think you will find if you read my one of my previous posts that it should be kitted and equipped for the riggers of deep space exploration. YEs you can strip it out, but it would soon fall apart

Please do not make the mistake of assuming things

Why should any ship fall apart in "deep space"? What is so different there versus "not deep space"? And why should it happen in 3302 when we were able to build spacecraft in the 1970s that can survive in space for a decade or more?

 

[SkipRat]

That last paragraph makes absolutely no sense.

Well think about it?

Hyperspace for instance, puts massive forces and stresses on the ship when jumping, not to mention, sending you face towards a whopping great stella body. This ultimately twists and bends the ships, decreasing its intergity etc over time.

Now if explorer ship which is designed to cope with these extremes is in deep space exploring, whilst at the same time combat ships are most definitely not designed to deal with the same extremes, but can do exactly the same thing though with the same consequences to both, despite the enormous difference in design.

It stands to reason that an explorer ship which are not design for fighting, would get slaughtered by combat class ships... if common sense reigned. Hence what is the logic of having Exploration ships getting wrecked in Combat, but Combat ships not being wrecked by Exploration?

It makes perfect sense.

 

[Fracktal]

That last paragraph makes absolutely no sense.

How so?

So you think it's perfectly fine for Specialized Combat ship to have no drawback regarding deep space travel, apart the inconvenience of smaller range?

It would make perfect sense to add some depth in Explorer gameplay to introduce relevant Equipment, Wear and Tears for ships and penalized ships not fitted for long range travel.

In a combat situation, exploration ship best outcome would be running away with probably some damage.
You wouldn't bring an exploration vessel in a Combat Zone without having it wrecked.
So bringing your Combat FDL to Jacques shouldn't be without significant damage to your module and Hull.

Combat ships have wide range of outfitting available for their purpose.
FDEV should give create relevant mechanics and more Outfitting option specific to Exploration/Deep Space Travel.

There are some ideas posted already, and you can add much more, such as:
Dropping to a Neutron Star/Black hole should always damage your ship unless you have some specific modules/Utility equipped.
Distributors should have more wear and tears if weapons are equipped due to increase load.

And they all make perfect sense and add Depth to the game.

 

[nathdixon92]

Te smaller jump range and smaller fuel tanks is a massive inconvenience.

 

[SkipRat]

Why should any ship fall apart in "deep space"? What is so different there versus "not deep space"? And why should it happen in 3302 when we were able to build spacecraft in the 1970s that can survive in space for a decade or more?

What is the difference of 20 jumps on a ship and 2000 jumps on a ship?

Why do aeroplanes require constant maintenance and repairing?

Why do explorer ships who have to survive longer on their own, built to last compared military craft that are not built to same standard and require constant maintenance to maintain there fighting edge performance?

Why are endurance racing cars built completely differently from F1 cars, that have a higher performance, but have much less durability?

 

[Luna Valenwood]

Do think think a FDL, which is designed to to be a combat ship and one the best should be able to make it 22,000 light years into the void just like a specially designed explorer ship?

And the point being that deep space explorers should not be worried about players in FDL killing people for the fun of it, 22,000 light years from home. Explorers should be worried about the dangers of exploring.

Because all Frontier have done to the universe, is create a children's play ground, devoid of any real substance, because of the fatel flaws in the games mechanics that allow players in FDL's to kill explorers in the deep of space.

So what you basically mean is that because combat ships are purpose built for combat, something like their FSDs short-out or heat management should be too much of a problem for them to viably go out into the black to explore?

I feel that exploring should indeed be a lot more dangerous but not that the dangers that come with exploration are the only ones. But I see what you mean and as I stated before we really do need something more than mindless jonking. Something a bit more engaging would be much appreciated.

It needs a bit of tweaking, yes but the question is what about explorers in FDLs, because I know that there are some who enjoy the ship to such a degree that they will take it out to the black just because they would have it no other way. They aren't attacking anyone just exploring like me and you, I suppose you could add some sort of stat on weaponry that increases heat when scooping or something but to me it just feels like that would then create another problem altogether.

 

[SkipRat]

So what you basically mean is that because combat ships are purpose built for combat, something like their FSDs short-out or heat management should be too much of a problem for them to viably go out into the black to explore?

I feel that exploring should indeed be a lot more dangerous but not that the dangers that come with exploration are the only ones. But I see what you mean and as I stated before we really do need something more than mindless jonking. Something a bit more engaging would be much appreciated.

It needs a bit of tweaking, yes but the question is what about explorers in FDLs, because I know that there are some who enjoy the ship to such a degree that they will take it out to the black just because they would have it no other way. They aren't attacking anyone just exploring like me and you, I suppose you could add some sort of stat on weaponry that increases heat when scooping or something but to me it just feels like that would then create another problem altogether.

But then that takes away the consequences to one choices and actions, ultimately taking even more away from the game.

 

[Fracktal]

Te smaller jump range and smaller fuel tanks is a massive inconvenience.

It's not massive. Otherwise people wouldn't have bothered traveling 22'000 LY just for some Trolling.

It would be massive if Wear and Tears was more significant and proportional to the number of Jumps. Like it should be

EDIT:
To mirror some argument used by Combat players, Exploration should be Dangerous but for very different reason and additional gameplay elements.
You want to bring your ship not fitted for Deep Space travel to SAG A*, ok but be ready to likely not make it to the end.

 

[SkipRat]

It's not massive. Otherwise people wouldn't have bothered traveling 22'000 LY just for some Trolling.

It would be massive if Wear and Tears was more significant and proportional to the number of Jumps. Like it should be

EDIT:
To mirror some arguments used by Combat players, Exploration should be Dangerous but for very different reason and additional gameplay elements.
You want to bring your ship not fitted or suitable for Deep Space travel to SAG A*, ok but be ready to likely not make it to the end.

We have a winner!!

Note: Minor edits

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

It's not massive. Otherwise people wouldn't have bothered traveling 22'000 LY just for some Trolling.

It would be massive if Wear and Tears was more significant and proportional to the number of Jumps. Like it should be

For them it's not just some trolling - it's their reason to play the game.
They would do it in whatever they have to use.
Any game mechanic that adds inconvenience is nothing that can stop them doing what they want - I would bet it only motivates them even more, because they know it affects the others just the same, making "the salt" even sweeter.

We can discuss wear and tear and other mechanics that make exploration more "difficult" or "dangerous" or would require more planing - but nothing of that will prevent a determined player from killing an other player.

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Would you be so kind as to list what you think each ship should be/do, for the sake of the discussion ? It may help people understand better where you are coming from with your logic. (FWIW I don't agree that ships really are specifically "anything" other than hulls you fill with stuff .. some maybe better suited for some roles, yes, like having better gun mounts; or FSD drives; etc; but with engineering you can make any ship do anything)
…

Engineers only enhance the already good aspects of a ship.

Engineers can't turn a Keelback or a Diamondback Explorer into a fighter - especially if the opponent is using engineered mods.

 

[nathdixon92]

Your already have wear and tear. And big ships do take more of it.

 

[Fracktal]

We can discuss wear and tear and other mechanics that make exploration more "difficult" or "dangerous" or would require more planing - but nothing of that will prevent a determined player from killing an other player.

You definitively have a point there. That wouldn't probably stop all of them.

But adding hurdle and mandatory fitting for Long Range travel would be still more positive for Explorers than for Determined Trolls.

More options and interesting gameplay for the first. Limitation, additional risks and chance for critical failure to make the journey on the other.
But it wouldn't stop the masochistic kind as you pointed out.

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Your already have wear and tear. And big ships do take more of it.

I made a 22'000 LY travel recently and didn't need my AMFU. My ship's modules and Hull were barely down to 85% due to a couple of missed risky scooping, just to make the trip more interesting.

I'm sorry but that's wrong and that's not how it should be.

 

[SkipRat]

For them it's not just some trolling - it's their reason to play the game.
They would do it in whatever they have to use.
Any game mechanic that adds inconvenience is nothing that can stop them doing what they want - I would bet it only motivates them even more, because they know it affects the others just the same, making "the salt" even sweeter.

We can discuss wear and tear and other mechanics that make exploration more "difficult" or "dangerous" or would require more planing - but nothing of that will prevent a determined player from killing an other player.

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Engineers only enhance the already good aspects of a ship.

Engineers can't turn a Keelback or a Diamondback Explorer into a fighter - especially if the opponent is using engineered mods.

What, deliberately going out and spoiling other peoples fun in an areas of the game they have no right to be in?

 

[Jypson]

Or...and bear with me now, I know this is a revolutionary idea...play in PG/S! It's a tale as old as time, PvE folk are having fun and murder-hobos stop by for a visit. It happens in the Bubble, it happened at Sag A, and now at Jaques apparently. The PG/S Cloaking Device is strong, use it in good health!

 

[nathdixon92]

You definitively have a point there. That wouldn't probably stop all of them.

But adding hurdle and mandatory fitting for Long Range travel would be still, more positive for Explorers than for Determined Trolls.

More options and interesting gameplay for the first. Limitation, additional risks and chance for critical failure to make the journey on the other. But it wouldn't stop the masochistic kind as you pointed out.

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I made a 22'000 LY travel recently and didn't need my AMFU. MY ships module and Hull was barely down to 90% due to a couple of missed risky scooping, just to make the trip more interesting.

I'm sorry but that's wrong and that's not how it should be.

What about Diamondback Explorers or Anacondas? You can equip a vette with all the exploration stuff you need and still have decent shields. Same with Cutter or a Python.