Do ai play by the rules when in combat?
- Thread starter mephisto9466
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Making OP AI is easy, they don't have to program in reaction times, persistence or mistakes. The AI clearly do 'cheat' in certain ways (as I described above), but yes, a lot of people do have a problem with the step change in difficulty. I think the decision to change this was wrong, and clearly the Devs realise this, which is why they toned it back in some areas.
Personally I would very much like for the rank/ship/cargo based 'random' interdictions to go away, and let me take my chances against the background AI. That way I can choose my own path rather than being forced down one of the dungeon master's choosing.
your not being forced into anything yes maybe the interdictions can be changed but are you really saying there should be no interdictions ??? then all you would have is really a space truck simulator
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O lord here we go again with the same old non sense. I have specifically tested the following:
1. Unlimited SCB spam. Conclusion after testing several AIs with SCBs, they get 5 just like any human with a SCB. After 5 is gone they won't have any left and don't use any more. Conclusion: bad players blaming their lack of ability to count on cheating AI
2. Unlimited chaff. They get 11, just like any human would if they are running just 1 chaff launcher. I have never seen an AI with more than 1 chaff launcher. Conclusion: bad players blaming their lack of ability to count on cheating AI
3. No heat damage. During testing #1 I put a heat beam on my FDL, once they ran out of SCBs and their shield dropped, their hull usually was around 80% and most modules at 70%. Only thing that could have damaged them was heat. Conclusion: people don't actually look at the hull/modules to check their damage status.
4. Unnatural ability to maneuver. I am elite combat ranked, and when I run around with a bunch of cargo I get interdiction by some elite something every 8-10 jumps. The AI flies one of the following: Vultures/FAS/FDL/Python/Anaconda. The hardest to deal with, whatever is using a turreted something. They fly so badly it is easy to stick on their 6 for most of the fight. Vultures and FLDs are a bit harder, but simply flying reverse and tanking the damage if I am in a slow ship. Heck frequently they don't even shoot at me because they have gotten a loadout that is too power hungry for their ship and they can't shoot.
So all you people claiming super human cheating ability on the part of the AI, post some evidence instead of going blah, blah, blah, cheat. I have never seen a video of someone claiming unlimited SCB where the AI uses more than 5. Same goes for chaff. I have done extensive testing on this and I can tell you with certainty that the AI does NOT have unlimited SCB, chaff, and does take heat damage.
Troy_McClure
Banned
Who the hell do you think you are?
'coming here with your 'facts' & 'empirical evidence'...this is Frontier Forums...just.get.out!
EDIT - Evidence of cheating AI? I'll post a vid of me interdicting a dangerous Vulture in my Courier (when I get home tonight), he then proceeds to fly rings around me (& I'm Elite!! Yeah, that's right!)..the moves that Vulture pulls were so incredible that I don't fire my weapons at all because I'm unable to get even ONE look at him in my gun sights during the actual dogfight!
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No, NPCs do not follow ingame rules. They are exceptions compared to the player and have access to additional tools they play doesn't have access to. Basically alot of workarounds, especially for nPC spawning which is the main reason why they spawn instead of using the FSD.
Your responses are quite polar micky1984, but yes, I'd accept no interdictions compared to what we currently have. It would be boring, but better than what we currently have imo, if you want a black or white answer. I think plenty enough players play the psycho role that there is no need for any NPCs to fill this role at all.
But between black & white are all the colours of the spectrum
There is a background pool of NPC traffic which is created with a supercruise instance. Some of these are police, some are bounty hunters, some are pirates etc. Instead of creating special NPCs that interdict me, why not have those decide to interdict (or not) based on their own rules? If the system is high security & you have a bounty, you need to look out for every Police ship & bounty hunter, not just the single, boringly predictable and repetitive custom NPC we have right now.
If you are clean and fit the target profile for a Pirate, they may act, and they would scan you for cargo (you know, like they used to before 2.1?).
When I dropped into an instance pre-2.1 I used to scan every ship that might pose a threat, take avoiding action etc. Why do the NPCs not do the same? They should be reacting to me and to each other. We should be just another ship but we're not, we're special
Right now the AI has a bunch of simple rules that make the game less good than it was for a lot of players. It could be good for a much wider section of players, but I think all that's happened is that it's become a little bit better for pew pew and a lot worse for most other activities.
The AI play to different rules, and they revolve around us.
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How do you feel about insta-dictions & non-persistent damage when changing instance?
I'd be interested to see any evidence you have to be able to draw your conclusions from, my experience has been different but it may not have been as recent as yours. Is there a particular thread I could read where you've put this?
Most noticably NPCs almost always prefer to go for a player.
Interdicted by a pirate NPC? The police force will scan the player first before even considering checking out the pirate shooting the player before their very eyes.
Entered a nav beacon instance? Few seconds later you can identify the pirate NPCs just by them heading straight for you to cargo-scan you.
An Anaconda on the enemy side in a CZ is at 50% hull and in a tangle with an Anaconda and 2 Vipers on your side? One shot and the enemy Anaconda turns around to attack you.
Oh and let's not forget how NPC ships don't drop materials when destroyed by other NPCs...
Interdicted by a pirate NPC? The police force will scan the player first before even considering checking out the pirate shooting the player before their very eyes.
Entered a nav beacon instance? Few seconds later you can identify the pirate NPCs just by them heading straight for you to cargo-scan you.
An Anaconda on the enemy side in a CZ is at 50% hull and in a tangle with an Anaconda and 2 Vipers on your side? One shot and the enemy Anaconda turns around to attack you.
Oh and let's not forget how NPC ships don't drop materials when destroyed by other NPCs...
Those are several questions so lets get to them one by one.
1. Insta interdictions. Its only ever happened to me by mission npcs. Not the random npcs that want your tasty cargo. Not sure how tasty my domestic appliances are unless you are some kind of metal eating alien. Although yesterday it appeared one of those random NPCs pulled me out of SC out of nowhere, but I admit I forgot to check the chat window when I jumped into the system. They always announce they are coming after you when you do. And from that you can plan your actions accordingly (at least that is what I do). I failed to do that on that occasion and I was caught of guard by the vulture interdicting me. My half engineered python made short work of him (fly backwards with grade 5 engines is just OP). I am personally not a huge fan of the interdictions, I believe they should make normal space 'larger' in that when I drop into my mission target, I should be fairly far away from my whatever it is I am looking for, and that if there are pirates or whatever, they should be between my and my target. That will give me the option of either trying to kill them, running the guantlet to get to whatever I am getting to. Or leaving.
2. Non persistent damage when changing instances. I have actually seen both. Where the NPC is completely reset when I jump into SC, and he comes after me at 100%. I have also seen where I jump into SC and he follows me and the damage I did to their shields was persisted. So personally I think there is a bug or something that sometimes doesn't persist the damage between instances. But I believe it should persist that damage.
As for the evidence, I haven't posted a video with this (so its my word here), but I can produce a video with the behavior I describe if I care to do so. But I am not making the claims of cheating AI with infinite SCBs/chaffs. So I feel the people claiming this should provide evidence of their problems first. I am more than willing to change my opinion if I can be proven wrong. But based on my testing of this I doubt this will happen.
That mad scientist lost control of her minions a long time ago. She gave them an over sized toy box and then they stole the keys and help themselves, to what ever they want.
Exactly.
I generally count my opponents Chaff and SCB usage in combat. Never once seen them go over what they should/could have. Some of them are really good at pitching, but it's all down to thruster use. It's not cheating, it's that they are better than most players.
They are affected by heat, but most players seem to freak out when their heat nears 100%, and the NPC generally don't seem to mind. That's not cheating though, players can do that too.
All it really boils down to is two things:
1) Players are not used to be outflown by AI, so when it happens, our brains more easily latch on to "they cheated" vs "they played better than me".
2) Human memory isn't that great, and is often prone to exaggerate. So if you're in a fight and trying to hit with your gimbals, and your opponent chaffs a lot, your brain is just going to remember the frustration of the chaff, and exaggerate it into "he was chaffing FOREVER!". When in reality, your brain was just frustrated and you forgot to count.
/if people actually started counting NPC chaffs, then all these posts would become "AI chaff lasts longer than ours!", until someone got them to count the time it was up.
Thank you for your considered response dutchy2000, I agree that exaggeration does either side of an argument no favours. I'm happy enough to accept your word on testing, personally I have avoided the 'improved' AI as much as possible for several weeks, using a RES for combat if I feel in the mood.
I agree on insta-dictions, they appear to be only with missions now, and that the 'random' ones telegraph their intentions (not every time). I have not personally seen any NPC's damage persist but I generally have not given them the chance to swap instances recently.
Just as with your own comments, there doesn't need to be a video of everything, your insistence on the other side posting their proof first only undermines your own findings.
I have seen videos of NPCs spamming approaching 100 missiles, I have personally watched NPCs repeatedly use more SCBs than their loadout suggests, and all of this has gone on probably since day one. It could be forgiven before, because the AI was a little derpy, but with the increase in difficulty these minor 'cheats' come to the fore in peoples' minds, whether they are still the case or not.
FD are staying quiet on this topic, they are the only ones that know how it should be working, and even then inevitably there will be bugs that appear to me and not to you, and vice versa.
The solution to this is very simple in my mind, dump the 2.1 update lock stock & barrel, and don't re-release it until it's coherently working as intended & does not disrupt the playstyle of an existing customer (however poorly they play the game, where they could cope before but now cannot).
The 2.1 release was a disaster for many players, and we are still feeling the paranoid effects of that in threads such as this. FD have made no attempt to placate or explain their fundamental changes to the gameplay, but as long as people continue to play their KPIs will look good. They are 'happy with the update', and player numbers & playtime is up, so beers all round.
But the AI do not play to the same set of rules across the board, and in my view until they do the code should be put back to the last known good state so that any failures in the game (intended or bugs) will fail safe, rather than failing hard at the players expense. I find it infuriating that I saw a nice steak on the menu, I ordered that steak, it came to my table & tasted good, but then it was taken away & returned burnt to a crisp. I just want the steak I originally received & was happy with.
I strongly disagree. You're basically calling the developers liars. If you are going to make that claim, show some evidence.
Chaff chaff, chaffity chaff... Chaff chaff chaff. Ch-chaff chaff mo chaff. Momma chaff poppa chaff the whole chaff family... Chiffity chaff chaff..
#fixedmounts
#fixedmounts
If I can get my recording to work, I will see if I can make a video for you. But last time I tried the recording software didn't like to work in combination with my rift. I haven't tested the missiles thing so I won't go claiming non sense on that. We know for a fact that the AI has unlimited multi cannon ammo (Apparently something to do with the fact that if they run out, they would leave the instance or something. Not entirely sure what that is about). My own experience indicates they seem to spam missiles a lot, but that could be cause they have a lot of missile launchers. I know with my current python loadout I can fire a ton of missiles.
I disagree with throwing out the 2.1 AI, to me they dialed the AI back too much already. None of them give me any challenge whatsoever, when 2.1 hit, I started using an asp x to do my engineer materials collecting, and I actually died once or twice because I wasn't paying attention. One time was when a mission npc interdicted me, and I failed to notice a 'random' npc announcing his intentions to get my tasty cargo. So I was in a battle with an FDL (mission NPC), when a FAS(random npc) with plasmas basically dropped right on top of me, and hit me with the full force of his weapons, dropping my shields. At which point I was in trouble and couldn't make it out in time. After that I started paying much closer attention to the chat window to see if anyone wanted my tasty cargo in case I was interdicted by a mission npc. That increased my engagement with the game as I couldn't simply just ignore the hints it was giving me about what was about to happen.
I realize not everyone has my skill level and it needs to be fun for most people, so after QQ'ing about the dial back, I stopped complaining about it, and I mostly ignore the AI unless they force the issue. Or I want to go on a murder spree in CZs. As for FD staying quiet on the topic, I don't agree. They publicly stated it was ramped up too much and they dialed it down, they also gave refunds to everyone for the losses due to bugs and the losses due to the AI being to hard. At this point I think they have a reasonable balance between the AI and the human skill level. A fully engineered ship will wreck any AI at this point though.
As for your steak analogy, I ordered a steak too, when I received it, it turned out to be a potato that was doing a shish kebob roll in front of me constantly. Then when 2.1 hit I finally got a steak with some flavor, but since 2.1.0.5 most of the flavor has been removed, and its a fairly bland steak. So I want my 2.1 steak back.
I appreciate that you feel strongly about this, but your post is as polar as the ones arguing that the AI cheat.
I think someone can be wrong, and I think words can be misinterpreted. What's intended, what happens, and the conclusions people come to do not always line up. If I thought someone was outright lying I'd say that.
I do think that the 2.1 changes were done with less thought to the implications than previous updates, so if you want to polarise that you could infer that I thought they didn't care about existing customers, but clearly they do, just not all of them
I'm happy to take your word at face value that the missiles eventually run out, but a vid would go some way towards placating the 'infinite ammo' crowd. It would be good to put it to rest. It wouldn't make a difference to the frustration players experience with the 'improved' AI though.
As you say you have CZs for some challenge, I stick to High CZs now. Rotisserie rolling NPCs were clearly a bug that was frustratingly not fixed for a considerable period, and not intended behaviour so I don't think this is relevant. I do like your response on the steak analogy though. Would you agree we should both be able to order steaks in the same restaurant & be happy with the result? I think so, if the chef is a good one.
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I appreciate that you feel strongly about this, but your post is as polar as the ones arguing that the AI cheat.
I think someone can be wrong, and I think words can be misinterpreted. What's intended, what happens, and the conclusions people come to do not always line up. If I thought someone was outright lying I'd say that.
I do think that the 2.1 changes were done with less thought to the implications than previous updates, so if you want to polarise that you could infer that I thought they didn't care about existing customers, but clearly they do, just not all of them
Being extremely polarizing without intending to is apparently my superpower.
I think if the Devs say, outright, (as they have) that the AI does not cheat except with multicannon ammo, claiming that the AI cheats in other ways is the same thing as calling the devs liars. If you said you thought it was bugged, I wouldn't object as much.
You might say it's basically the same thing, but one helps create an antagonistic and hostile community (even if that's not your intention), while the other results in a bug report, so I think it's quite different.
I think you misunderstood, I will see if I can make a video about my testing that the SCBs and chaffs do run out. For the missile spam, I have not done extensive testing, so I can't agree or disagree with the statement, I have no proof either way. If I want to discuss it with you, I need to do some testing myself first before going one way or the other.
As for the steak, I believe we should both be happy in the end. But if you order steak from the spicy part of the menu (lets say High CZs) and you find the steak too spicy, and complain the steak shouldn't be that spicy. Then I am going to tell you to order something from the kids menu that is not so spicy (lets say threat 1 USS or something). Just like you will tell me to look at a different part of the menu when I order chicken nuggets from the kids menu and complain they are not spicy enough.
Which is why you will find me in CQC quite a bit, as the opponents there sometimes give a bit of a challenge. Although I have to admit most of the time if we had elite AI in there they would be better than most of the people I play against.
It seems clear that we largely agree dutchy2000, although using the phrase 'kids menu' is more than a little condescending
But yes, we both enjoy the same thing - steak with some garnish. If it doesn't have enough hot sauce for you, you can add more. But if too much is added by the cook, I can't take the excess off, for me the steak is spoilt. So I'd like to have the steak with a tub of sauce I can dip into if I choose, you would be happy either way (in this case)