Trading ships defence balance

[Martind Forlon]

I have tried make some "usable" trading ship builds, using coriolis.io, and find out, that there is only very few trading ships which can have good defence and still can serve as "traders", namely: Cutter, Anaconda, and Python. Everything else, if want build decent defense, lose trading value considerably (=read as "they are unusable for trading") and appears question: Why then use them at all?.

I can understand that low cost ships can't match these "top", but if we will talk for example about T9, she for sure is not cheap ship. Still, if you will want have more cargo space as on Python, you will need sacrifice (seriously) shield strength and considering slow speed it in result give very bad result (compared to Python) for hostile encounters.

With things said above, what you think about trading ships defences? And if you think that it is not good enough, what you think should change? (Note: I take into consideration engineers upgrades for ships.)

My idea in T9 case is: go from 4 to 8 utility slots and increase slightly shields base value. **I know that in 2.2 there will be on this ship possible use small fighter, but imo for this ship it will have not big enough difference in survivability.

But there are others, T7, T6, Orca ... what there? Or you think that I see things wrong?


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... please, constructive feedback, discussion about topic mentioned above. And if I mean constructive, then it is not: "use solo or PG" and you can use many ships for trading easily. My aim in this thread is trading in "open", which imo should be primary environment for which should be done ships defense balance.

 

[The Weasel]

I think you are correct - the T-7 is quite poor - the 2 front guns (small) and the 1 top/bottom pair are very weak - point defense and chaff are better for defense - especially as it really needs a 'tail end Charlie' rear gun - or at least really at the back - this would give some defense while getting up to speed.

For me the benefit is the lower rebuy cost - a T7 mainly cargo with fuel scoop for runs - is ~ 850k - so not a massive rebuy with ~192 cargo. Getting up to Python which is the next point if you want defense is ~ 3.5Mil - the T-9 not much cheaper - I would go with largest shield (C or D) good cost / shield strength then add a couple of A0 boosters - it reduces the cargo max but allows you a bit more safety for interdictions - and when fighters come on board - you never know. I would like fighters to be a purchase and crew option - just as with hanger and SRV. Select the reserve pilot to fly either fighter in defense or to pilot main ship while you run cover in the fighter. There will be choices and impacts if either fighter or main ship are destroyed depending on which you are in. This would seem to me to be more realistic - not following the 'spin to win' engineers poor implementation.

I use solo/group - I am not interested in PvP or massive interaction - 3 reasons - 1. Chat and comms are useless - I am unable to really have discussion especially in small instances - no inbuilt saved message options (should have 10 that can be used) 2. No player to player exchanges, sales, trades etc (I am not meaning PvP) 3. apart from CG I see no real interaction - this is minimal - Yes I have gone for the credits - testing different ships/weapons etc cost credits - so I do the trade runs or CGs for creds - then play with the ships and have fun - but I see no real purpose or goal - some may say (correctly) it is the experience - true - but even Elite/Plus had a few structured missions that waited for you - special viper to track down - find a criminal etc - nothing so far is real interaction - and even the better mission pages (v.v.v.v.v.v SLOOOOOOOWWWWWW to open) are just as dumb - no real complex order A-B-D-A yes but not a shopping list.

So much has been added - but never finished - exploration - SRV - scanner - development of surface scanner - focus targeting - remote trade monitoing - cargo/module storage selling a module swapping ship and rebuying it just to keep it is a poor mechanism - especially as you only get a few minutes to complete it.

 

[DukeIronHand]

Guess it depends how small you wish to go. The T6 makes a great trader at 80 - 100 tons of cargo depending on how you fit it out.

While no defensive powerhouse her speed alone makes her a tough target.

Same with the Cobra which is even faster at just 40 tons though.

 

[DragoonKnight]

I dont really see a point in a lot of defense on a trade ship. No profit in fighting. Just need enough chaff and shields to run away.

 

[koop26]

Traders shouldn't be engaging their interdictors unless they have a 100% chance to win and without losing shields in the process. The most important "defense" on a trade ship is it's boost speed.

T6's and Clippers are desirable to myself. I put on A-thrusters, and a non-gimped power distributor that can run them. I just run and there's been no instances of anyone ever catching me in my Clipper.

Pythons are a different beast and require some thought. A-thrusters are necessary and that's just to have some semblance of speed. They are slow, slow. You'll likely never outrun an interdictor so you're going to need to survive. Shields, military armor, boosters, chaff to tank your way into a low wake escape. There will be cases with a Python where high waking makes more sense. Unfortunately tuning a Python to be armored hurts its jump range. So they are a complicated beast to figure out for trading.

It's a downside of being a slow ship in a post 2.1 world. speed > defense.

I've never owned an Anaconda but from what I understand they can be speedy. Someone can correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[ForeverN00b]

I've never owned an Anaconda but from what I understand they can be speedy. Someone can correct me if i'm wrong.

The Annie is slow, too, and not as maneuverable as the Python. The tricks that work with the Python work with the Annie, for escaping. Low waking is usually an option on the Annie as it won't be masslocked (except by ships that NPC pirates don't fly).

Oh, G5 Thrusters on the Python can get you 400m/s boost speed with full combat fittings, military armor and a full cargo hold. Most fights I can outrun and outgun.....it depends on my mood which one I do (PvP is different obviously).

Edit: On the galaxy map, the Anaconda is very fast

 

[CMDR Aengus]

There should be two types of trade ships.

Light and fast with smaller cargo holds.
Hard and armoured with bigger cargo holds.
I'd rather see more utility points. Better balance of shields and armour and get rid of hard points all together. Unless it's a multi role ship like Python or Anaconda.

Dedicated trade ships should either bug out fast or be able to withstand hits and not be masslocked.

With appropriate balance of course. No need for iWin button.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Mines or nothing at all.

 

[ForeverN00b]

Trade ships still need hardpoints for mining lasers, if not mine launchers.

 

[CMDR-AD]

My Type-9 uses a Class 7 shield with 4 0A boosters (at level 1 engineering), around 600MJ with the 7A generator.

The Class 7 shield does cost a good deal of cargo space, but that shielding has served me very well. Ship is good for 404 tons of cargo in this configuration.

I owned a Type-7 late last year, I think. Fun ship, great cockpit and sounds. It did OK fitted for 200 tons of cargo, but the shields were so poor. I just checked and even with the largest Class 6A shielding 3X 0A and 1X 0C boosters (power plant can't even handle 4X 0A boosters)... Only 288MJ of shielding, carrying 168 tons of cargo.

The 168 tons part, I could deal with if it was a Medium pad ship, I'd probably own one for outpost trading. But that low shield strength breaks the deal at any pad size for me. And there is very little room for engineering on the 4A reactor. I have doubts it could survive some NPC attacks, much less Open play.

I am interested to see the Type-9 getting a fighter bay, and perhaps thus another look at it's balance for 2.2 release.

 

[Devari]

I have tried make some "usable" trading ship builds, using coriolis.io, and find out, that there is only very few trading ships which can have good defence and still can serve as "traders", namely: Cutter, Anaconda, and Python. Everything else, if want build decent defense, lose trading value considerably (=read as "they are unusable for trading") and appears question: Why then use them at all?

There is no reason to use a T6/T7/T9 at the moment in 2.1.05 given the increase in NPC combat capabilities from Engineering mods and (to a lesser extent) the AI changes. I parked my T9 shortly after 2.1 launched and have been flying my heavily-armed Python since then with no intention to go back to the T9. Ever. I will probably take it out for lulz when 2.2 launches to see how it handles the ship-launched fighters, but I have a Keelback for that which will probably be much more survivable in that role.

Basically if you want to trade, buy a Python, Anaconda or Cutter. Don't bother with the T6/T7/T9 series unless you enjoy combat logging or seeing the rebuy screen on a regular basis.

 

[DukeIronHand]

You've gone "space happy" sir.
Properly outfitted the T series do just fine against NPC's and whatever Engineering mods they may have.

 

[Bambi]

It makes sense, the Anaconda is canonically speaking, a hauler.

 

[V'larr]

I think the balance is fine.

The cargo ships, right now, are more affordable than multirole alternatives that are more suitable for combat and other things.

That's the trade-off.

When progressing through ships, you can decide whether to sidegrade to the multirole ships or buy a bigger cargo ship.

I took the latter route and then side-graded from the Type 9 to an Anaconda. (I did try the Asp Explorer and Python for other things, though.)

The thing is, the Type 9 is not "Anaconda-tier".

It's more "Python-tier", on the level of ships like the Imperial Clipper or Federal Gunship.

So it's not supposed to have things like 8 utility slots.

 

[c48113]

I did a lot of trading in a T9 (pre 2.1) in the end I had all turrets filled and a lot of shield boosters and chaff. I could take on eagles but not much else but it was fun seeing them pop. but could usually submit, boost and wake out. Made a lot of money, enough to outfit a conda.

 

[Martind Forlon]

Interesting, it seems ppl are mostly ok with given situation, but I somewhat miss info about trading (traders) using 'open' game mode. Thx everyone for your imput. Maybe I have personally set the needs for defense too high, which limits ship choice (I like risky environment).