Combat logging experiment in Cail, Results

[Vorxian]

I think if FD force players into a particular game mode to do something PvE they cannot do in solo private, then I think most would be forgiven for combat logging as that level of interaction with other players isn't wanted, yet forced. Personally I find it is just 'cause-and-effect'.

If I'm darted in my own home, sedated, and I wake up to find myself in a boxing ring.. I'd refuse to fight. It'll be a plain seal clubbing, for what purpose I'd not know. Maybe folks get a kick to see another seal clubber get 1 minute of joy at the expense of another getting a pointless pasting.

No idea. But I think these combat logs were inevitable.

 

[floc]

you are vey tempted to combat log after a poor man in a cobra interdict you 3 times on last cg and same today, and you escape all times boosting (even if not submitted), with no harm and no scratches even on your shield... This is not piracy, is griefing, learn to how do some real piracy before complain

 

[NeilF]

FDEV are currently between a rock and a hard place - all entirely their fault.

Their fault because they have - even after, what, almost 2 years since first release? - not implemented any kind of meaningful crime & punishment system - and they know it.

This is why they haven't to date either dealt with groups like the SDC, nor have they been particularly harsh with combat loggers. They just cannot at the moment justify any really harsh punishments because of the position they find themselves in with the laughable state of crime & punishment.

Until they do properly implement crime & punishment, we are stuck with an endless cycle of groups and individuals like the SDC doing what they're doing, players combat logging, and the endless forum screaming on both sides pointing fingers at each other.

I single out the SDC here because they are a perfect example of being able to get away with all kinds of indiscriminate player killing with little to no repercussions in-game.

I've been spending an hour or so each night watching SDC twitch streams - a certain "wizard"'s stream is pretty damn good to learn what they're doing - and observed them...

1) Choosing their next target area for their escapades - this will be a CG or some other place like the recent alien crash site.

2) Targetting any hollow square and interdicting, then very quickly vapourising the target.

3) Buzzing around a station and ramming players entering the mailbox.

4) Preventing a player from docking by putting a ship between the player and their assigned docking pad, then another member starts ramming that player to death - inside the station.

Number 4 is especially heinous. It's taking advantage of the fact that when a player is trying to dock, there really is no escape for them. They can't hi-wake from inside the station. They can't get back out of the station as it has now become a death trap for them. So then what happens is either the player is blown up or they 'combat log' and the mocking starts on the stream like that was some kind of crime.

Again, this is FDEV's fault. Their non-existent crime & punishment system is to blame. What station authority in their right mind would allow another pilot to fly underneath the ship that's trying to dock and prevent it from doing that, whilst another ship is ramming them from the other side?

And yet - at the moment FDEV have no choice but to be lenient to both sides because of the lack of consequences.

With regards to combat logging I'd like to ask those who say it's some major crime - what do players who find themselves inside a station with one ganker blocking their assigned pad and another ganker ramming them - what do you suggest those players do? They can't escape from the situation as effectively the station has now become a trap for them. All they're doing is trying to dock. Is "combat logging" still unjustified in that situation?

To FDEV - I hope you've been watching those streams, and I hope you're going to do something about this soon - that tactic of blocking an assigned pad and ramming in my mind has crossed a line drawn between genuine PvP and plain abuse of the game mechanics.

Examples 1-3 aside, who woudn't happily log in scenario 4? Given the choice of given them their kicks or instead causing them some annoyance... Which is the better outcome? Which is the fairer outcome? Which is better for the game?


Yes, until Crime and Punishment, and associated trolling & ganking, is sorted, Combat Logging cannot be addressed.

IMHO, the order of attack should be:-
1) Address Crime and Punishment, and troll exploits (eg: ramming).
2) Improve piracy to be less about CMDR destruction and more about robbing.
3) Introduce more legal PvP missions/tasks/mechanics.
4) Tighten on Combat and Menu logging etc.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

I'd reckon the still completely broken Heat Meta (Thermal Shock) and the few near-insta-kill Weapon Mods contribute to that.
Alot of heavily equipped Ships used to be able to deal with aggressors, at least on the Escape part (if folks weren't using Network cheats to cause insta-FSD fail of the Target during the Interdiction - which sadly used to be a quite frequent sight)

Now with the utterly crazy Thermal Shock or the single-shot disable/kill Mods... the Threat level of an unknown Interdictor is absolutely through the roof.

I think it's safe to assume that things won't ever be resolved and return to a "new normal" that everybody can accept, until the following prerequisites are met :
- very potent and reliable Crime & Punishment System
- very potent and reliable System Authority/Defense Forces response and -escalation towards Wanted or rampaging CMDRs
- complete redefinition of the Crime System (Killing of a clean CMDR = capital crime), so no more utterly laughable ~6400Cr Fine that everybody forgets about after 7 days
- introduction of very potent Cheat Protection and drastic measures against known cheaters
- total rebalancing of several Weapon Special Engineer Effects

Not holding my breath. Balancing attempts I've seen so far almost looked helpless, despite fully functional and easy to implement definitive fixes were readily offered in the Forums.
Cleaning up the rat tail that came from the massive Engineer boosts to Player Ships is a whole different story - System Authority Ship Equipment, Defense Forces, Outposts, Planetary Bases, Stations, Bounty Hunter NPCs... All that work hasn't even begun yet.

 

[InlineSix]

You forgot...


... 5) Heat is balanced. What a joke.

 

[Sunleader]

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/285558-Piracy-and-PvP-Combat-Overhaul

 

[DarthRavadge]

This is hilarious....
Someone performs a hostile action (Interdiction IS hostile) and expects people to be agreeable about it. " I set off on a mission to @#$ people off and some of them actually got @#$%^ and quit." Well, no @@#$ Sherlock.
If interdicted most people will immediately fire upon the offender and a trader or someone who is merely going from point A to point B collecting engineer commodities is going to save their ship however they can and as quickly as possible.

Everybody needs to get over combat logging . It soooo whiney. I didn't get my kill, boohoo. If you want to fight go find someone else that wants to fight.

 

[Eymerich]

This is hilarious....
Someone performs a hostile action (Interdiction IS hostile) and expects people to be agreeable about it. " I set off on a mission to @#$ people off and some of them actually got @#$%^ and quit." Well, no @@#$ Sherlock.
If interdicted most people will immediately fire upon the offender and a trader or someone who is merely going from point A to point B collecting engineer commodities is going to save their ship however they can and as quickly as possible.

Everybody needs to get over combat logging . It soooo whiney. I didn't get my kill, boohoo. If you want to fight go find someone else that wants to fight.

You have accepted this because you are playing open
If you don t want that go on mobius or solo
Mostly PVE here....

 

[DarthRavadge]

I do accept it and play in open. I have no problem with it.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

You have accepted this because you are playing open
If you don t want that go on mobius or solo
Mostly PVE here....

I do accept it and I play in open. Merely commenting on how ludicrous this experiment was.

 

[WreckWren]

*sigh* I guess the game will end up with a penalty for logging out when you've been in combat in the last 5 minutes or something. Sad, but sadder still are the losers who CL.

 

[NeilF]

Everybody needs to get over combat logging . It soooo whiney. I didn't get my kill, boohoo.

The problem your eloquent and insightful post is missing is for example piracy from day one was sold as a cornerstone profession/mechanic. Yet, if we look at the results of the poster's test, it's in a rather farcicle state. Why? Because FD have seemingly been busy with CQC and giving us 25% more pewpew rather than addressing core issues, and even more importantly, moving core mechanics forwards.

If you want to fight go find someone else that wants to fight.

Now if only the game could orchestrate and provide this? Powerplay tried, and failed badly IMHO because it just wasn't willing to move gameplay mechanics forwards.

 

[Karlos Ploryman]

This is hilarious....
Someone performs a hostile action (Interdiction IS hostile) and expects people to be agreeable about it. " I set off on a mission to @#$ people off and some of them actually got @#$%^ and quit." Well, no @@#$ Sherlock.
If interdicted most people will immediately fire upon the offender and a trader or someone who is merely going from point A to point B collecting engineer commodities is going to save their ship however they can and as quickly as possible.

Everybody needs to get over combat logging . It soooo whiney. I didn't get my kill, boohoo. If you want to fight go find someone else that wants to fight.

I usually politely ask if they need something, .... usually no comms, just fireworks .... Thats why I play mostly the fastest ships in open

 

[Karlos Ploryman]

*sigh* I guess the game will end up with a penalty for logging out when you've been in combat in the last 5 minutes or something. Sad, but sadder still are the losers who CL.

Yes, its sad that CLs exists and what is sadder is the FACT, that its not really their fault that they have been forced / taught / encouraged to do so by the worst scum that ever roamed this beautifull galaxy with us... The true cowards and loosers, who gang up in overpowered ships to destroy the defenceless rookies or elites in exploration / trade fitted ships.

And I am not against civilised piracy! If piracy is well done, then players would gladly participate / donate portion of their cargo, have a chat, you know? ROLEPLAY

 

[Leut]

[video=youtube;VD7f6gOodYQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD7f6gOodYQ[/video]

This guy said it all. PVP in Elite is NOT PVP

 

[11of10]

A thing just crossed my mind: What if you could only do powerplay missions, and similar stuff that actually has consequences on the greater galaxy in Open. If you play private or solo, whatever you do doesn't count? So, no CGs, no powerplay... effectively, a single player is a single player

 

[_Fissure]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD7f6gOodYQ

This guy said it all. PVP in Elite is NOT PVP

As a highly competitive person and active PvPer, this guy is absolutely spot on in his analysis and commentary. A lot of players in online games are exactly this. +rep for posting a great video.

 

[Dakron Nova]

Im going to admit I havent read all of the previous 17 pages of posts but have read a fair few.

As someone who frequents Open and Solo in about equal measures depending on the mood Im in I think people who Combat Log forget one thing.

Elite Dangerous gives you several ways to play, Open, Solo or Group play.

If you play in Open their is a chance that you will get interdicted by a player, and just shot out of the black. If thats not your cup of Tea play Solo, or if you want to encounter other players play in a group. Saying that, and Ive been playing since Beta, the number of times Ive been interdicted by players I can count on both my hands.

So really given you have made the choice of Open when other options are available for you why then combat log? It is cheating, heck its even cheating if you combat log against an NPC.

 

[Leper Messiah]

As someone who came back to ED after a long break...

Waaaaaaait a damn minute.

You're telling me there is / was a CG event that's "open only"? Who, in their right mind, thought of this?! This seems like a huge precedent, and learning that people combat-log is absolutely not surprising.

And then some people have the audacity to write things like "no one forced them to play open" or variants of thereof? This is crazy! And THEN you have the typical pro-PVPers arguing against logging and pro-PvEers arguing why the whole thing is messed up, and neither group is listening to the other... I mean, those two groups never could reach a consensus, but when I read this thread is seemed no one was responding to the other side. But perhaps it's for the best, as verbal abuse could start flying if that were the case.

In case it's not apparent, I'm pro-PVE. I rarely poke into Open - at most to refuel people (registered Fuel Rat here), and whilst I'd love to see more CMDRs on my travels and be able to wave them "hello" and "goodbye" I've read and heard way too many horror stories about gank-squads out for blood; not even for any in-game gains, really, just to mess up someones day. And then when one considers that PvP crime has next to no repercussions I'm surprised anyone is still surprised by combat logging...

QFT!

I think we all know why combat logging is so common (if we agree it is)... Players do not appreciate mindless destruction. Why give someone their kicks, when these kicks are nothing to do with any ingame progression or skill, but instead the cynical knowledge they are simply causing needless grief to another player.

Anyhow, IMHO, we need to do the following:-
1) Create far far stronger penalties for (illegal) Pilots Federation destruction (any where). In effect to deter repeat mindless destruction. And have increasingly long bans to OPEN only?
2) Improve piracy so its a worthwhile occupation, with its own reputation and bases to access. And also so it is based around the extraction of cargo from Pilots Federation members, not the destruction.
3) Offer more viable PvP mechanics/locations/tasks. People want to PvP, but the game currently does next to nothing to orchestrate it.
4) If someone is soft logging (ie: exiting to Menu) in a combat situation, increase the timer, and show this timer to all players in the instance. Maybe even introduce a damage multiplier. ie: So if someone is soft logging they can more easily damaged.
5) Penalise combat logging. Give warnings about repeated "odd disconnects" before finally taking some sort of action. eg: Increasingly long bans to SOLO only?

Good points:

Totally agree about Piracy being fleshed out a lot more, and being based on non lethal methods. I think I've mentioned that Pirates should have access to disabling devices (EMP?) that also effects their weapons, so they can "Rob" the target but can't destroy it.

I also think that outright ship destruction/loss should NOT be a thing. FD can work it in to say the Pilots federation now prohibits the destruction of Pilot federation ships so when a ship is crippled badly no more damage is done. PVPer gets their "kill" and the loser has to spend some time repairing their ship to a point it can get to a base and can be properly repaired.

The only people against the above (that still has winners and losers) is those who WANT to maximise the hurt for another human player, and quite frankly any game that panders to that sort is supporting bullying (and YES it is bullying, just because it's via a "game" and no physical contact does NOT mean it's not bullying).

 

[DaggerSnake]

I took my FDL and went to cail for twenty minutes, interdicting people and immediately saying "Hi, fly safe" and jumping away without even deploying hardpoints, just to establish I didn't have any bad intention, also keeping my distance.

I always thought people would combat log only in a defenseless ship, like a type 6, an adder or an asp, but no. Combat log is so common that knows no bounds, no ships and no rank.

For the experiment purpose, I won't name any commander.

Anaconda (Dangerous) -> submitted interdiction, combat logged.
Python (Expert) -> Submitted interdiction, combat logged.
Type 7 (Competent) -> Combat logged during interdiction.
Anaconda (Elite) -> Fought interdiction, combat logged.
Anaconda (Expert) -> Combat logged during interdiction.
Type 6 (Competent) -> Fought interdiction, DIDN'T combat log.
Cobra MkIII (Competent) -> Fought interdiction and plummeted onto a planet, my bad.
Anaconda (Deadly) -> Submitted interdiction, combat logged.
Adder (Mostly harmless) -> Combat logged during interdiction.


What do we learn from this?
Combat log is the easy way out, and everybody, no matter how big and scary their ship is, what their rank is, what their outfitting is, do consider and actually combat log without even understanding what is going on. Even pirates, do use them

"Quester, you interdicted them, of course they assumed you were there to pew pew them".
As I said, I stated my intentions right after the succeded interdiction

"Quester, you mean pirate, you're a horrible person"
Yes, I am, but people who combat log are even meaner than me. Uh, I'm also not a pirate and never, ever killed anyone first in almost a thousand hours of gameplay.



Later I'll continue my experiment.

Try positive message BEFORE negative act of interdiction and state you have no hostile intentions.

Try negative interdiction before positive message in a less threatening ship.

Your results seem very non-surprising for how you described the experiment.

A log out after both sides trade shots would seem more unsportsmanlike. Shouldn't there be combat to have a combat log?

 

[Han_Zen]

Totally agree about Piracy being fleshed out a lot more, and being based on non lethal methods. I think I've mentioned that Pirates should have access to disabling devices (EMP?) that also effects their weapons, so they can "Rob" the target but can't destroy it.

We have a tool for this. It's called a hatch breaker. The problem is that you probably get more of the cargo by destroying your victim.

What we should have is:

- Successful Hatch Breaker = All the cargo.
- Destruction of cargo hatch = Some cargo.
- Destruction of ship = Very little cargo.

Destruction of the victim should equal failed piracy. A Pirate would never sink a Spanish Gallion full of gold.