Couldn't agree more. I'm not pretending this is easy, I know it requires a lot of under the hood work, but I would rather they spent a year getting this mechanic working properly than just fudging it to get a feature out the door. The code to track NPC movements in an intelligent and realistic manner has practically infinite possibilities as far as game-play goes. But once you put a QoL feature in like instant transfer, moving the goal posts like that many would find unacceptable. If they had announced this feature as real time transfer, I doubt there would have been much complaining, deviating from instant now would likely generate a huge wave of complaints for them and changing it later would just unleash a torrent of forum rage that would dwarf even this threadnaught.
2.2's Instant Ship and Module Transport - Yay or Nay?
- Thread starter Kintch
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Couldn't agree more. I'm not pretending this is easy, I know it requires a lot of under the hood work, but I would rather they spent a year getting this mechanic working properly than just fudging it to get a feature out the door. The code to track NPC movements in an intelligent and realistic manner has practically infinite possibilities as far as game-play goes. But once you put a QoL feature in like instant transfer, moving the goal posts like that many would find unacceptable. If they had announced this feature as real time transfer, I doubt there would have been much complaining, deviating from instant now would likely generate a huge wave of complaints for them and changing it later would just unleash a torrent of forum rage that would dwarf even this threadnaught.
What alternatives do you envisage to insta/delayed travel, except for no transportation?
One with a sensible user interface. And presentation that dresses up "Database Update" as "Ship Transfer".
But that's just smoke and mirrors? The mechanics are still the same surely?
eg: In my head (to keep things sensible/simple) I just see your ship being transported as immediately appearing in your current shipyard, but if you try to do anything before its ETA has come and gone, it tells you the ship is in transit and you can't access it.
Now if you want nice flashy graphics showing you the ETA and a live update of how long until the ship arrives etc, that's all just window dressing surely? When the ETA has arrive a message being given to you about the ships arrival? Fine...
And if you instead want a realistic route plotted and for details of its position along that route, fair enough... It's the same really, just with more work etc?
I was expecting something more radically different for the suggestion of putting the feature "back in the over"?
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Bit of orange text in mail/message window on comms panel.
Ship transfer request placed.
Ship transfer authorised payment cleared
eta at system Xxx......
Ship transfer initiated, unable to cancel, only total loss of ship as option.
Ship on route
Click on the Galway tracker tab to find where your ships are.
Various updates on transfer progress along the lines of traversing such an such system
Adjusted delivery eta due to conflict out breaks, ship rerouted.
Your ship/s have arrived at final destination station XXXXX
All this fed to your info screen as you go about your other business.
As a loyal customer of xxxx ship delivers get a 10% discount on your next transfer.
But then it's more immersion and fun if you transfer ships to here, here they are! select ship to fly.
Ship transfer request placed.
Ship transfer authorised payment cleared
eta at system Xxx......
Ship transfer initiated, unable to cancel, only total loss of ship as option.
Ship on route
Click on the Galway tracker tab to find where your ships are.
Various updates on transfer progress along the lines of traversing such an such system
Adjusted delivery eta due to conflict out breaks, ship rerouted.
Your ship/s have arrived at final destination station XXXXX
All this fed to your info screen as you go about your other business.
As a loyal customer of xxxx ship delivers get a 10% discount on your next transfer.
But then it's more immersion and fun if you transfer ships to here, here they are! select ship to fly.
The key for me is the plotting of the route, if you can do that you could, for now, just put an arbitrary scoop or station refuel timer on it as a place holder, do some calcs on the fuel tank size, max jump range and distance, and work out how long until the ships available (if at all). That's fine, it keeps the ships operating within the same rules as if it were under player control. However if they are going into beta with an instant transfer model then it means that they will not have coded for this and the option would be either, go with instant, go with an arbitrary time, or put the feature on hold for now. So of the three available options, I would go for the latter.
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Player effort? Dude, to use ship transfer, all you have to do is a press a button and give up some credits. That's not effort, that's instant gratification (even if the feature isn't instant).
All I'm saying is to keep it reasonable and believable gratification, not just straight-up handwavium.
Yeah. Because it would be in transit. What are you not understanding about this?
Does it make the *least* amount of sense to you, the idea that your ship can just instantly and magically teleport anywhere on a whim's notice instead?
It does not need to be complicated - in fact, it *needs* to be simple, both for the sake of expedient game development and for reducing the chances of bugs and unintended glitches.
And it does not need to be perfect or mathematically correct. Smoke and mirrors are all that most games really are. What makes the difference is whether the illusion is crafted to be believable - and kept consistently believable as more smoke and mirrors continue to be added on to the funhouse.
What makes Elite so incredible is that all those smoke and mirrors are incredibly believable - thus far (ignoring most of RNGineer content).
Would it be neat in the future, down the road years into development, to see the ship being moved? Sure. But you would need a timer placeholder in the meantime to base it upon, or else scrap the idea of releasing this feature.
I'd rather have the feature now with the placeholder timer, especially now that Frontier bothered to hype it up and mention the feature during a major media event. Just turning around and saying "actually we changed our minds" doesn't work - see No Man's Sky.
I frankly do not understand whatsoever how a reasonable timer would have any kind of rephrensible effect upon you and your gameplay. Prior to the feature: if your ship is at point B and you want it, you have to invest in another ship and the time it takes to get that ship from point A to point B, then to switch ships and pilot your ship from point B back to point A.
After the feature? You could order your ship at point B to meet you at point A and do whatever activity you choose until it completes its journey (even if you can't actually physically see it - is that REALLY such a crucial thing? come on now), then hop into it and do what you want, all in *MUCH* less time than prior to the feature's release.
The only difference between that and instant transfer is that it took a believable amount of time for your ship to appear and that meant you had to plan and make a choice to use your time wisely.
I fail to see how you consider that a bad thing - it really, utterly floors me and leaves me flabbergasted.
You? Maybe. But most people? I can guarantee that's not true. This poll is plenty sufficent as a sample size to prove that.
What I see as your greedy demand for instantaneous gratification can survive a mere 5-15 minutes without you losing your mind, I assure you.
I've already expressed the purpose of a believable timer, time and time again here and in other threads. I don't feel that I really need to repeat myself.
If you and kofeyh and the "others" you suspect who also demand to see things in black and white extremities and cling to the words "egg timer" insist on being in denial despite all arguments and evidence to the contrary, all over 5-15 minutes of time that you can spend any damn way you choose, then I (and the majority of players) can't really help that.
Slopey
Volunteer Moderator
Of course, this is exactly what will happen. Hence why FD should (imho) drop the feature for 2.2, or implement a delay at the outset. Adding a delay to a previously instant feature would be as contentious as removing the time taken to move a ship in the current version - but once instant transfer is in, the genie is out of the bottle, and ED becomes a lesser experience for it (imho).
I don't really get your point. Its all smoke and mirrors, I'm not even on the bridge of a spaceship, I'm in my office!
Seriously, yes - it would be great if your ship was travelling to its virtual destination, and could even be seen en route, but (I believe) FD are never going to do that, so realistically, those of us who find the concept of instant transport/spaceship backpack/is that an anaconda in your pocket etc anathema to all that Elite represents, we need to focus on solutions that FD might just go along with.
If that was a little sign in the shipyard saying "Ship due at 12.47 pm (27 minutes)" or whatever, I'd be quite happy with that. Not necessarily an ideal solution, but the difference between night and day compared to instant transport.
I don't really get your point. Its all smoke and mirrors, I'm not even on the bridge of a spaceship, I'm in my office!
Seriously, yes - it would be great if your ship was travelling to its virtual destination, and could even be seen en route, but (I believe) FD are never going to do that, so realistically, those of us who find the concept of instant transport/spaceship backpack/is that an anaconda in your pocket etc anathema to all that Elite represents, we need to focus on solutions that FD might just go along with.
If that was a little sign in the shipyard saying "Ship due at 12.47 pm (27 minutes)" or whatever, I'd be quite happy with that. Not necessarily an ideal solution, but the difference between night and day compared to instant transport.
Sorry, maybe "smoke and mirrors" were the wrong words.
But wind back... My point/question was to "kofeyh" who implied rather than instant or delayed transfer, it should be "put back in the oven." ie: As if there was alternative solutions not being discussed?
My reply to you was simply suggesting however we dress "delayed" up, and how ever simple (eg: ETA = DistanceInLy/JumpRangeInLy) or complex (eg: following a real route) we make it, in reality is just "details". The fact that your ship doesn't arrive for a logical period is the important bit.
This. In a nutshell.
I couldn't have said it better myself - if we are going to be able to summon our other ships from distant (or near) locations, then it needs to take exactly as long as if they were piloted and flown to our current location. Anything else is just ridiculous in my opinion.
Side note: "egg timer" - love it! [big grin]
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Frontier, just pull the darn mechanic.
Timers suck. They are not a stand in for proper handling of ship transfer. There is nothing positive about a forced timer where assets are now stuck in limbo until they end.
It isn't the journey I have a problem with. It's the arbitrary garbage timer.
This is also what I am saying. If you actually read my comments rather than be triggered on timer and then going off on to wild tangents, you would know this. A timer doesn't solve the hand waving. It just stalls/ delays it.
Forget the delay. Just pull the mechanic. I would rather just fly than have some daft timer that doesn't actually make the mechanic any less pulling a rabbit out of the hat. Again you'd actually realise I'm equally for logic and reason.
I'm just not foolish enough to believe a simple timer will be fine. It isn't. It's not. It won't be. And all this endless shouting will do is enshrine a garbage mechanic, rather than a sensible one.
Frontier can't add anything cool or unique or engaging to a timer. Because it's a timer. Again, believe it should go back into the oven rather than have a pathetic experience because people mistakenly believe that's sufficient.
So we're happy with? - If the transfer mechanics showed your ship at the new station with an ETA? And you couldn't access it until that ETA, with it isntead showing the ETA time/countdown etc.
And we're down to the detail of how that ETA is calculated?
If so, would either of these do it for you?
A simple calculation: ETA (minutes) = DistanceInLy/JumpRangeInLy. Can be skewed. eg: x1.5?
An actual viable realistic route was plotted and then calculated: ETA (minutes) = Jumps. Can be skewed. eg: x1.25?
I'd personally be happy with either of these... The latter of course would mean if a ship can't make jumps large enough to get to your system, it couldn't be transported there!
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I proposed two earlier in this thread, might as well repeat myself:
1. Mobile app containing the function to call your ship in. Would combat the problem of sitting in front of the screen doing nothing (for those that have it) by being able to schedule your transfers while being busy IRL.
2. Multiple commander slots. Ship transfer becomes a separate issue, but would allow players to "log off the trade ship and jump into the combat ship" without really screwing up anything else with the game world.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
I really like the mobile app idea.
A second slot would just give the player two options where to be in the galaxy - and would not overcome the barrier to gameplay that being in the "wrong" ship seems to present to Frontier.
These are all just examples of arbitrary delay. I'm not sure what part of "arbitrary timer" is being missed here. But people having ships stuck in limbo between a and b is what this translates to.
And it all requires we must either do other tasks, or sit and wait. If the situation changes, we can't just go hop to some station in between and grab the ship.
All of these examples basically pull one or more assets out of the game and denies commanders the ability to use them again until X period expires.
This is really the fundimental problem of call to, versus send to. Call to becomes problematic as soon as you "lock" an asset because it's "transferring" to another station.
I'd rather frontier went back to the design desk, rather than be pressured in to some arbitrary delay to try and appease people.
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I have 3 accounts. So three commanders active; one is for newbie streams, so I have two commanders in play.
So for me? Timers mean I now pinball between commanders because it's about all I can do, because how often am I going to go mining or trading or whatever before I eventually end up just sitting there waiting for some microwave to go *ding* and pop a ship out?
So yah, instead of having some time in one, some in the other and having flexibility and choice I'd be pinballing backwards and forwards to basically bypass what is ostensible a "hold queue" for my ship(s).
I really don't want to have to do this because how is that fun? And what does that achieve? We're now bypassing the delay by using another commander to fill in the time.
And for anyone (which is most) who only have one account, they can start a transfer, but must then either forcibly do other things, or sit and wait.
I think that that instead won't create a meaningful mechanic that's useful but instead create frustration as that delay starts getting old and people gravitate to idling, or just not using the mechanic at all because at least if you drive you are actively engaged in the game.
The app idea though? Is basically time shifting when a transfer happens so we don't have to experience it. So it's no different to logging in, triggering moves and logging out.
What is the point of inducing delay to reduce the instant nature of it if people spend there entire time trying to avoid dealing with that during their available play time?
Doesn't that actually make it pretty clear how disruptive timers actually make the mechanic?
Anyway. People seem to love timers so I guess we'll see if frontier decide that instant is still the go, or if they decide timers and static delays are still less effort than going back to the design board.
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Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
.... or, an even worse prospect, implemented the feature with no delay at all with no chance to remedy their mistake later.
Timers are a perfectly acceptable solution. Generally, software attempts to simulate the effect of a mechanic, not the mechanic itself. For example, sophisticated aircraft simulation software (used to train domestic and air force pilots) simulates the effect of throttle controls to engines and the effect of thrust to the aircraft. They do not need simulate all of the moving parts of the engine itself in order to accomplish the goal. It's the same reason that simple timers effectively take the place of "real" processes such as modules powering up or even multi-cannons rotating and firing rounds.
The amount of development involved (not to mention server-side overhead) in actually tracking a ship in transit completely outweighs the simple need to maintain game continuity which a calculated timer can achieve. It would be a "nice to have", but it is not necessary to achieve the goal.
Effectively, your ship is in transit... somewhere. You don't need to know where and it is unavailable to you because it is either being piloted by someone else or is being carried/towed by another ship. You have an ETA for when that ship will be available (because it would have arrived in that port). That is all that is needed.
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