Question about "bandwidth" between the modes?

[DukeIronHand]

Old '85'er so I waited on ED till last August of 2015 when things looked so good I couldn't resist. Why the wait? Living in the middle of nowhere I connect to the Internet via a satellite which means limited "bandwidth" - if that is the correct term.

Did a Google search (FWIW) and it said ED used 60 MB/hour for Open play and 2 MB/hour for Solo. Well I can certainly do 2 MB/hour (and sometimes 60) but when I tried Open, and was attacked by Cmdrs, things became a slideshow and I quickly died - 3 times - without getting a shot off on two of them. Things were cool until combat started. "Latency" with my satellite I was told here. Oh well. So I have stuck with Solo.

But I was just on a mining trip and saw NPC's mining away in the distance, Security chasing pirates and thought it would be neat to at least have the chance to see another (friendly! No combat!) Cmdr once in a while. So after that long winded intro to be clear my question is:
If Open takes 60 MB/hour then presumably Group play (like Mobius) would also?

I'm sure I know the answer (and that is "Yes") but guess I am hoping I am wrong.

 

[PavelKCZ]

Old '85'er so I waited on ED till last August of 2015 when things looked so good I couldn't resist. Why the wait? Living in the middle of nowhere I connect to the Internet via a satellite which means limited "bandwidth" - if that is the correct term.

Did a Google search (FWIW) and it said ED used 60 MB/hour for Open play and 2 MB/hour for Solo. Well I can certainly do 2 MB/hour (and sometimes 60) but when I tried Open, and was attacked by Cmdrs, things became a slideshow and I quickly died - 3 times - without getting a shot off on two of them. Things were cool until combat started. "Latency" with my satellite I was told here. Oh well. So I have stuck with Solo.

But I was just on a mining trip and saw NPC's mining away in the distance, Security chasing pirates and thought it would be neat to at least have the chance to see another (friendly! No combat!) Cmdr once in a while. So after that long winded intro to be clear my question is:
If Open takes 60 MB/hour then presumably Group play (like Mobius) would also?

I'm sure I know the answer (and that is "Yes") but guess I am hoping I am wrong.

Basically, the needed bandwidth is rising with amount of real players in your instance. So, between Open and Moebius is no difference. If you are in the same instance with 10 players in Open, your internet traffic (and necessary bandwidth) is the same as in the instance with 10 players in Moebius.

The NPCs are a totally different thing, because in Solo they only exists on your client side, so no network communication is necessary. Also, if you are alone in some instance in Open or Moebius and there are only NPCs, they also exists only in your client computer and no network communication is necessary.

This is a common problem with P2P networking model.
If you are alone in the instance, your client is not communicating with any other computer in the Internet, except ED servers.
But as soon as players A,B,C will appear in the same instance as you, your client will open three more two-way connections to those players and will start sending your telemetry to player A, B, C and concurrently receiving telemetry data from player A,B,C.
Plus, there will be additional traffic, because NPCs will start "hopping" between your client and clients of player A,B,C...

 

[Mangal Oemie]

while bandwidth is somewhat of a problem, your real issue with satellite is latency, which is the time it takes for a network packet to make it from your end to its destination, as well as back.

For cable, etc. this can be very low... 20 ms to a server nearby. With satellite, though, the packet has to actually leave earth, bounce off the satellite, before going to its destination. Latency for satellite can easily be half a second, if not longer. That's not really going to work with fast-paced games like ED (let alone combat).

This is going to make it difficult to go online together with any CMDR, whether Open or PG, unfortunately.

I managed to fly with some friends in Australia from California over a decent cable connection, and that was both lucky (usually instancing doesn't work at all) and created some weird movement of ships due to lag and the game catching up with ship positions. I'd guess our pings would be around the 200-300 ms range, still less than optimal satellite.

 

[Riverside]

Old '85'er so I waited on ED till last August of 2015 when things looked so good I couldn't resist. Why the wait? Living in the middle of nowhere I connect to the Internet via a satellite which means limited "bandwidth" - if that is the correct term.

Did a Google search (FWIW) and it said ED used 60 MB/hour for Open play and 2 MB/hour for Solo. Well I can certainly do 2 MB/hour (and sometimes 60) but when I tried Open, and was attacked by Cmdrs, things became a slideshow and I quickly died - 3 times - without getting a shot off on two of them. Things were cool until combat started. "Latency" with my satellite I was told here. Oh well. So I have stuck with Solo.

But I was just on a mining trip and saw NPC's mining away in the distance, Security chasing pirates and thought it would be neat to at least have the chance to see another (friendly! No combat!) Cmdr once in a while. So after that long winded intro to be clear my question is:
If Open takes 60 MB/hour then presumably Group play (like Mobius) would also?

I'm sure I know the answer (and that is "Yes") but guess I am hoping I am wrong.

Latency is your enemy with a satellite connection, not bandwidth.

Mobius (or any other group) will just be a filtered instance just like Open, but with different players. Your experience will be the same in terms of lag & rubber banding, however in Mobius you would not be in direct conflict with another Cmdr so it may be less of an issue. You should still be able to chat to other players in your instance for example, but if your ships get close (or have convergent vectors) you may have a virtual collision, which none in the instance will appreciate

You'll need a co-ax or fibre (land) connection for decent latency I'm afraid, an upload speed of 0.5-1Mbps should be enough.

 

[DukeIronHand]

Thank you gentlemen. Just to clarify what I think I am reading...

Seeing other Cmdr's (in the places I go) is quite rare. So if I am playing in Group mode - and there are no other Cmdr's in a system that I am aware of or in my instance - then I would be at "2 MB/hour."

But if one or more Cmdr's are present then my "bandwidth" goes up to potentially "60 MB/hour" depending on how many Cmdr's are in my instance?
These are rough number figures of course.

 

[Riverside]

Thank you gentlemen. Just to clarify what I think I am reading...

Seeing other Cmdr's (in the places I go) is quite rare. So if I am playing in Group mode - and there are no other Cmdr's in a system - the I would be at "2 MB/hour."

But if one or more Cmdr's are present then my "bandwidth" goes up to potentially "60 MB/hour" depending on how many Cmdr's are in my instance?
These are rough number figures of course.

Yes.

12345

 

[DukeIronHand]

Thank you sir and a final question if I may. If I am in Group mode you mentioned that my "slow" connection may mess up other players in my instance? Interfere with their game play?
Is it that bad for them? I don't want to be "that jerk" DukeIronHand!

 

[Riverside]

Thank you sir and a final question if I may. If I am in Group mode you mentioned that my "slow" connection may mess up other players in my instance? Interfere with their game play?
Is it that bad for them? I don't want to be "that jerk" DukeIronHand!

Your latency could spoil their day, yes.

The data transferred between players is never instant, so the game will predict the path of your ships based on their last known heading & speed. If you are on a collision course & take rapid evasive action, the data packets that contain the change in heading may not reach the other players' for a second, so to them it will look like you plowed straight into them, then suddenly (as your vector change update arrives at their end) your ship will 'rubber band' to it's correct position.

And of course all of their ships will be doing that to you.

 

[PavelKCZ]

Thank you sir and a final question if I may. If I am in Group mode you mentioned that my "slow" connection may mess up other players in my instance? Interfere with their game play?
Is it that bad for them? I don't want to be "that jerk" DukeIronHand!

No, it will not mess their game. If your network connection is slow, they will simply see your ship moving a bit weird (rubber jumping). But it will not slow down their own game and if the group is something like Moebius, where the PvP is strictly forbidden, there is no problem neither for you nor for them.
There can be a small problem during some cooperative actions (things like a group photo of ten ships at some place or coordinated fly in Wing), but those are mainly cosmetic problems.

P.S. Yes, Riverside is right in this one thing. I forgot this. If you will have a long latency, you should move slowly and try no to do fast maneuvers and/or speeding. Especially around stations with high concentration of players. But it is nothing dramatic. Personally, I never had any problem with players on slow (or long latency) line in Moebius. When I see a player who is rubber banding, I initiate an evasive manoeuvre in advance, because I know that my network connection is better than their and I am able to move aside.

 

[Riverside]

No, it will not mess their game. If your network connection is slow, they will simply see your ship moving a bit weird (rubber jumping). But it will not slow down their own game and if the group is something like Moebius, where the PvP is strictly forbidden, there is no problem neither for you nor for them.
There can be a small problem during some cooperative actions (things like a group photo of ten ships at some place or coordinated fly in Wing), but those are mainly cosmetic problems.

Just to clarify here, the rubber banding will cause problems if you are in close proximity. In supercruise etc it'll just look weird

 

[Jukelo]

No, it will not mess their game. If your network connection is slow, they will simply see your ship moving a bit weird (rubber jumping). But it will not slow down their own game and if the group is something like Moebius, where the PvP is strictly forbidden, there is no problem neither for you nor for them.
There can be a small problem during some cooperative actions (things like a group photo of ten ships at some place or coordinated fly in Wing), but those are mainly cosmetic problems.

That's not entirely true. Beside what Riverside said, each client is also responsible for a number of NPCs. If DukeIRonHand has bad latency, other players will see his ship rubberbanding but also they will see the NPCs for whom his client is providing logic rubberband.

 

[DukeIronHand]

Ok thanks Cmdr's.
Guess I will give Group a try more often (in non-CG areas) until I see the message from another Cmdr of "Careful! There some jerk around here using dial-up!"

 

[PavelKCZ]

That's not entirely true. Beside what Riverside said, each client is also responsible for a number of NPCs. If DukeIRonHand has bad latency, other players will see his ship rubberbanding but also they will see the NPCs for whom his client is providing logic rubberband.

Hmm, strange. I never saw this. Not in RES, not around stations etc.
Rubber banding players, it is normal. But rubber banding NPCs ?? Maybe I was just lucky.

 

[SanguisDiabolus]

I use my phone for internet (not a hotspot, using the 4G) on my laptop when I'm at work and am able to play Solo perfectly fine.

 

[Ndarain]

Ok thanks Cmdr's.
Guess I will give Group a try more often (in non-CG areas) until I see the message from another Cmdr of "Careful! There some jerk around here using dial-up!"

The problem you will face will most likely be latency, and not throughput. It's usually pretty far to a satellite.