Why do combat ships have bad FSD range anyway?

[droid327]

I know its not a new idea by any means...but what exactly is the point of balancing combat-oriented ships with arbitrary drawbacks? Having a bad FSD does not impact your ability to fight in any way. They don't even boot up slower or anything when you're trying to wake out of a bad fight. And combat ships are already restricted by limited internals, making them unsuitable for use as a trader or explorer, where jump range is more relevant. So the FSD restriction is just a pointless extra limitation that isn't actually affecting how the ships can be used. A combat ship with moderate jump range would still only be optimized for combat, and wouldn't eclipse any other ship in any other role.

So, what, exactly, *is* the point of short-range fighters? What's the advantage in discouraging people from chasing combat opportunities around the Bubble? Whats the disadvantage if every ship can get at least an acceptable range for in-bubble transit (~20 Ly base) with an A-rated FSD?

If they're going to force long delays on ship transfers down our throats, they can at least sugar coat it by giving combat ships a bump up to moderate base jump range, so "fly it there yourself" isn't such a dread-inducing idea.

 

[DNA-Decay]

Barrier to entry.

Keeps combat ships "local" except for things that run for days.

I went up a Rank in combat during the Leesti Civil War (yay, 'grats to me) and I bought my first Vulture. Intending to sell it when I finished, but when I checked the AEDC Squad Board tonight, there was an operation to win an outpost in a, uh you know, it's not an "Important" system (like Leesti) just some * hole run by anarchists that we picked up in an untargeted expansion a while back. Anyways it's up near home. Which is not like "Far" coz when the Boffins upstairs picked our home system it's kinda in the heartlands of the Alliance - halfway between, uh Alioth and the Old Worlds. And uh, there was a third strategic location it was equidistant from, uh something about "bananas", but I can't remember what. Jeeze now I'll have to go and ask one of the AEDC founders. I'll get back to you.

Anyways point is, shifting a combat ship up to an area is a commitment to that area.

You don't just turn up a kabillion LY from home.
Blast the locals into small pieces and then F Right Off.
Well, you do, but you pay for it.
Not in game credits. Which, you know, can't buy you a loaf of bread.
But you pay in TIME.

And that's the thing with Elite.

You trade your time for the advancement of whatever cause.

People talk about grind.
But it's that basic transaction in Elite.
Your advancement costs time.

 

[Andovar]

One thing I can think of is giving traders and exploration vessels with longer jump ranges a means to escape. This way you can't endlessly follow their high-wakes.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Why do long range explorers have limited firepower?

You can't have it both ways.

 

[SheepDip82]

Combat ships are better at combat, worse at long distance travel/trade
Trade ships are better at trade, worse at travel/combat
Exploration ships are better at travel, worse at combat/trade
All-Rounders are all-rounders...and if it's the Anaconda - better at everything

 

[kofeyh]

Because the developer decided this. There are any numbers of RP reasons that have since surfaced, but mostly it's because the developer decided the balance point between combat ships and targets, was range.

You would think survivability, defense or some such would have been the more logical differentiator. But no. Just range.

 

[Traveller_GG]

Combat ships are better at combat, worse at long distance travel/trade
Trade ships are better at trade, worse at travel/combat
Exploration ships are better at travel, worse at combat/trade
All-Rounders are all-rounders...and if it's the Anaconda - better at everything

While turning magnificently in SC (and not like a lumbering cow as some people would say)

 

[goemon]

if you fit them lightweight, all combat ships beside fds/fgs can reach 20 ly. fds/fgs get 19,5 and 19,6 ly jumprange.

not in combat outfittings ofc.

 

[GJ51]

If ships didn't have varying characteristics

we'd all be flying

THE SAME SHIP

Nobody get everything

Use the ship best suited to your particular objective

Accept that every ship has some compromises

Except maybe - the Python lol

 

[Martian Successor]

Why do long range explorers have limited firepower?

You can't have it both ways.

The Asp has 2 Medium and 4 small slots for weapons. I wouldn't call that 'limited' by any means - it's actually quite a mean mother if it turns on you with all 6 guns! And the Anaconda - 1 Huge, 3 large, 2 Medium, 2 Small = wow nelly! You put some of them on turrets and gooses will be cooked with the minimum of effort.

I don't know, seems to me like combat ships got the short end of the straw here in this comparison of having cake and eating it.

 

[SheepDip82]

The Asp has 2 Medium and 4 small slots for weapons. I wouldn't call that 'limited' by any means - it's actually quite a mean mother if it turns on you with all 6 guns! And the Anaconda - 1 Huge, 3 large, 2 Medium, 2 Small = wow nelly! You put some of them on turrets and gooses will be cooked with the minimum of effort.

I don't know, seems to me like combat ships got the short end of the straw here in this comparison of having cake and eating it.

The ASP isn't really a good example. Despite the fact it's called an "explorer" it's more like an all rounder (given it's hardpoints and internals).

 

[CMDR IPL Victim]

Why do long range explorers have limited firepower?

You can't have it both ways.

Why do passenger liners (okay, so it is just the Orca right now), have limited jump range AND limited firepower?

 

[StiTch]

The Asp has 2 Medium and 4 small slots for weapons. I wouldn't call that 'limited' by any means - it's actually quite a mean mother if it turns on you with all 6 guns! And the Anaconda - 1 Huge, 3 large, 2 Medium, 2 Small = wow nelly! You put some of them on turrets and gooses will be cooked with the minimum of effort.

I don't know, seems to me like combat ships got the short end of the straw here in this comparison of having cake and eating it.

4 C1s are fairly lackluster unless you're fitting missiles, and the Asp has famously bad inertia. It's not a great combat ship.

This whole thread is pidgeonholing just about everything. There are combat-oriented ships with good jump range. There are some that do not.

Now on a balancing level - and to answer the title of the thread - you will find it's a case of managing internals space, and this is a situation it works well for both gameplay and lore reasons; for a ship of a given size, it would have modules of a given size. On some ships, they are given an oversized module as part of what that ship is, but see some awful internal space (FDL) or the undersizing of other modules (Gunship with a C7 distributor and C5 FSD, giving it an awful range) so it fits.

Each ship has had modules balanced so they're good in some areas and bad in others. As far as balancing goes, the ships themselves are one of the best balanced things in ED.

If OP is asking for all combat ships to be given a strong jump range, sorry but no. If you're going to give a ship higher firepower than its size should allow and the power to supply it, I would expect that ship to not be able to make it across the bubble in a couple of jumps.

Now we have RNGineers this is even less of an issue. But drawbacks mean that ships are actually different, and we are encouraged to use these different ships. DBS is built around being a combat scout. If we take jump range out as an issue, you're stripping away the character of the ships. And the result is that you may love a FAS, but if your bud asks you to help wreck a target in a system not too close to you, I for one would jump in my DBS instead.

 

[StiTch]

And to answer the question at the bottom of the thread, we're being given ship transfer. That solves your issue with getting combat ships around the bubble.

 

[Martian Successor]

Why do passenger liners (okay, so it is just the Orca right now), have limited jump range AND limited firepower?

Because FD hate love you

 

[Mikey2305]

Lets have a poll

 

[Vandaahl]

The Asp has 2 Medium and 4 small slots for weapons. I wouldn't call that 'limited' by any means - it's actually quite a mean mother if it turns on you with all 6 guns! And the Anaconda - 1 Huge, 3 large, 2 Medium, 2 Small = wow nelly! You put some of them on turrets and gooses will be cooked with the minimum of effort.

Thats not what he said.

When I'm off exploring I leave all the weight I don't need - read, weapons - at home to increase jump range. So by that definition, exploration ships have bad firepower because they are stripped of their guns.

 

[droid327]

Why do long range explorers have limited firepower?

You can't have it both ways.

What would it change if explorers were given awesome hardpoints, though? You still wouldn't equip them, because you don't need weapons to explore, and because you still wouldn't want to spend the mass and sacrifice jump range. That's my point about range and combat craft...its arbitrary, irrelevant. It doesn't change how you use the ship.

Combat ships are better at combat, worse at long distance travel/trade
Trade ships are better at trade, worse at travel/combat
Exploration ships are better at travel, worse at combat/trade

But your ability to trade is also limited by your internals, which combat craft lack. So trading ships would still be better traders.
Exploration is based on jump range, yes, but I'm not calling for all ships to have the same range. There's a reason for ships to have good jump range, there's a reason for ships to have moderate jump range, but there's no reason for ships to have inadequate jump range.

if you fit them lightweight, all combat ships beside fds/fgs can reach 20 ly. fds/fgs get 19,5 and 19,6 ly jumprange.

not in combat outfittings ofc.

Well that's not entirely fair. Nothing else has to completely sacrifice its role for adequate basic transit. Imagine if an Asp with full Explorer fittings lost 20 Ly of jump range And traders lose range when laden, true, but range is actually related to their role. Traders don't lose, say, shield and hull resistances as they get more laden.

If OP is asking for all combat ships to be given a strong jump range, sorry but no. If you're going to give a ship higher firepower than its size should allow and the power to supply it, I would expect that ship to not be able to make it across the bubble in a couple of jumps.

Now we have RNGineers this is even less of an issue. But drawbacks mean that ships are actually different, and we are encouraged to use these different ships. DBS is built around being a combat scout. If we take jump range out as an issue, you're stripping away the character of the ships. And the result is that you may love a FAS, but if your bud asks you to help wreck a target in a system not too close to you, I for one would jump in my DBS instead.

But why not? What is being balanced by not letting people play the content they want to play, where its made available to them? You're creating a game and then saying "you cant play it unless you pay an arbitrary opportunity cost".

And again, I'm not calling for homogenization. DBE would still have markedly superior jump range, it would still be differentiated. Just talking about bringing up the minimum range from "unsatisfactory" to "adequate".

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Thats not what he said.

When I'm off exploring I leave all the weight I don't need - read, weapons - at home to increase jump range. So by that definition, exploration ships have bad firepower because they are stripped of their guns.

you can happily explore in a heavy armed Asp tough, he will still reach most of the places in the Galaxy. Doln't get my wrong, I get your outfitting choice, its a good choice, but its still your outfitting choice and not a trait of the Ship itself. Its very capable of exploring while armed.

 

[droid327]

And to answer the question at the bottom of the thread, we're being given ship transfer. That solves your issue with getting combat ships around the bubble.

People can already get their combat ships around the bubble with their tiny FSDs. But they don't, because it takes too long. So ship transfer as its now being discussed doesn't actually change anything, because its still going to take as long if not longer.