Elite AI feels right but isn't worth fighting
- Thread starter Shaamaan
- Start date
The NPC programming was developed to provide sufficient challenge to players to entice them to obtain Engineer mods especially at the Elite level. As many have pointed out this is not mandatory depending on pilot/combat skill and ship capability vs. the NPC ship(s) but applying at least some of the subsystem upgrades can easily tilt the balance in these types of engagements.
In terms of tactics a reverse boost can also help to break the "circle of death" OP has referred to but the core issue may have been the lack of firepower to quickly deplete the NPC's SCBs. Common NPC FAS/FGS/FDS tactics especially at the Elite level usually center around repeated ramming attempts against Medium or Large ships and these can have devastating impact on stock or minimally reinforced ships.
Yes, the "AI" has been enhanced but the tools are also available to counter that and adapt.
In terms of tactics a reverse boost can also help to break the "circle of death" OP has referred to but the core issue may have been the lack of firepower to quickly deplete the NPC's SCBs. Common NPC FAS/FGS/FDS tactics especially at the Elite level usually center around repeated ramming attempts against Medium or Large ships and these can have devastating impact on stock or minimally reinforced ships.
Yes, the "AI" has been enhanced but the tools are also available to counter that and adapt.
That's a very good point too. New AI punishes the simplistic "outfit lasers and maybe multicannons, pull trigger when in range" style of combat a lot. If you still want to make that viable, you at least need to measure your remaining capacitor against your opponents remaining shield, and try push through their last few percent when your capacitor is topped and you'll be able to stay on target, or you're just gonna watch them shield cell back up to full.
Regarding that... I can use FA-OFF to make a single turn, but that also screws up my trajectory. If I keep using FA-OFF I end up facing my opponent, yes, but they'll be facing me just as well. Against an enemy armed with rails, that doesn't seem like a good idea.
Toggling FA on and off should net better results, but I'm still working on that. Anyway, before I get some thruster upgrades the turrets are there to stay - besides, they help with smaller and far more nimble NPCs as well.
Dunno about merits as I don't PP, but Elite NPC opponents in missions usually yield 60k to 150k cr for a couple of minutes work at most. Strike me as quite a nice little earner? I've run into one FAS that seemed to be able to spam SCBs faster than I could get through his shields, but that's only one ship that struck me as unbalanced since 2.1 dropped.
The game we're all trying to play is zero-G Lazer Quest, with nuclear powered tanks. It's a proper martial art, and like any other, requires being free to actually move, how and when you want.
A skilled combatant has learned how to use his abilities to his advantage. That's what makes combat so much fun in previous Elites.
In ED though you're nerfed on all planes and axes (especially yaw), because 'balance', apparently. So the very freedom of expression the artform depends upon is snuffed out of existence. Combat skill in ED isn't so much about what you can do, as coping with what you can't - with limping around semi-paralysed, trying to scrape some fun out of the ordained choreography we're supposed to play out.
Props to the OP for trying to play with mouse and keys, must be worse than ArcElite... would much prefer to use mouse and keys myself but only with pitch and yaw, not roll, which i map to keys instead. With the nerfed yaw in ED it's just completely unplayable. God knows, ED has taught me to hate my clunky HOTAS, slave to it that i've been, meticulosly tending it up a bit, left a bit into the wee hours night after forlorn night. I know now that it can never earn its deskspace the same way as my FFB wheel, if i'm gonna set up one or the other..
A skilled combatant has learned how to use his abilities to his advantage. That's what makes combat so much fun in previous Elites.
In ED though you're nerfed on all planes and axes (especially yaw), because 'balance', apparently. So the very freedom of expression the artform depends upon is snuffed out of existence. Combat skill in ED isn't so much about what you can do, as coping with what you can't - with limping around semi-paralysed, trying to scrape some fun out of the ordained choreography we're supposed to play out.
Props to the OP for trying to play with mouse and keys, must be worse than ArcElite... would much prefer to use mouse and keys myself but only with pitch and yaw, not roll, which i map to keys instead. With the nerfed yaw in ED it's just completely unplayable. God knows, ED has taught me to hate my clunky HOTAS, slave to it that i've been, meticulosly tending it up a bit, left a bit into the wee hours night after forlorn night. I know now that it can never earn its deskspace the same way as my FFB wheel, if i'm gonna set up one or the other..
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I took a break from ED somewhere after Horizons was released and the AI was pretty easy to deal with back then (ballerina-dance bug notwithstanding). Oh, the AI could still be very dangerous when they were grouped up (death by a thousand cuts was a reality). And it was quite frequent to see AIs in wings too.
I came back after the break, and I'm reading that first the AI was really over the top, then they tweaked it, but it was buggy (and this still over the top), now they tweaked it and it's... easy again?
Well, make up your mind, I say!
Anyway, I fought an elite FAS in my Python last night, and came out of the fight without ammo and just over 30% hull left. I may have started the fight with not enough ammo (MCs) to begin with, which meant I only had my pulse lasers and a single beam to work with (weapons which definitely aren't best for dispatching hull) during the latter half of the encounter, meaning I probably could have taken less damage then I did. The fight was actually a 2v1 initially, but the other NPC was "just" a competent-rank cobra and was dispatched of very quickly.
Also, my Python isn't (yet) engineered (well, I did get the FSD upgrade and some rank 1 combat upgrades, but those are miniscule).
Needless to say, the fight didn't seem easy. The FAS was armed with rails and had a ton of chaff (do they ever run out?) and the fight turned into a drawn out circling competition, where my turreted weapons would slooowly chip away at shields. Occasionally the FAS would boost away and then there was nothing I could do but put pips to shields because I knew I was going to get hit by those rails. Eventually the enemy ran out of SCBs, then sometime later I ran out of mine (that's why I ended up with 30% hull).
So, here's my thoughts on the matter...
a) Biggest sin: the fight wasn't worth it. I was looking to get bounties for the alliance in a HazRES (in alliance space) and the kill netted a really disproportional bounty. I don't think it paid for the ship repairs (which was ~100k I believe). Perhaps it was my own mistake for starting the fight without actually checking the bounty but I assumed a target with such a rank would be actually worth the risk.
b) The fight was a bit boring. I'm not sure it was a good idea to equip NPCs with SCBs. Perhaps limit them to 1? The point is - it became a battle of attrition, not a battle of skill. Drawing the fight out might be good and proper in PvP, but this isn't about PvP. The general feeling is that one needs to bail out from the RES after such a fight and go restock (ammo, SCBs, heat-sinks, repairs) far more frequently, which adds tedium to the whole experience without giving anything back. It also ties in with point a)... perhaps if the bounty had been worth it?
c) I'm at this weird point where I don't think I can get any better. I don't have a HOTAS, I rely on a traditional keyboard + mouse combo. I do use FA-OFF occasionally for faster turns, but I wouldn't ever consider it to actually fly with. I utilize vertical and lateral thrusters (as much as I can think of utilising them), and I keep to the blue zone. But, as stated, the fight turned into a circling battle of attrition, and the enemy would occasionally boost away, and then have perfect aim to hit me with rails. Perhaps having rank 5 dirty drives would give me enough agility to actually avoid getting shot, but this would lead to the conclusion that engineering upgrades are a must. Needless to say - I don't think the AI requires any more buffs / nerfs to it's piloting abilities. An argument could be made that a different ship would fare better in this scenario, but while not-engineered the Python is a multi-role ship and has been properly outfitted. Shouldn't it also be able to perform well (i.e. for longer periods of time) in a RES?
To summarize (TL;DR version):
The elite NPCs do pose a significant danger, but fights can become boring due to SCB spam. Also they aren't worth the risk. If they aren't worth the risk, then what's the point?
You engaged an Engineered combat ship in a glorified cargo ship. Of course you are going to take a beating.
I had a similar Python experience as you did, OP. I left the bubble on an exploration trip right after horizons launched and when I came home, parked my Asp and took my Python out to a CZ, I got annihilated.
For me, the solution to the problem was simply moving back to a pure fighter for "fighting." I still haven't done more than rank 1 of a couple of engineer mods, but flying a fun little Vulture in a combat zone has gotten A LOT more fun. It's like a CQC fight: opponents that actually present challenge and real threat. I do get a little miffed by the occasional "omg 5 ships just spawned and they're all trying to kill me at the same time," thing, but it's a fair tradeoff to have AI that flies like it has half a brain in its head.
My poor Python is now full of cargo holds incase I ever want to trade; I will never intentionally fly it into combat again.
For me, the solution to the problem was simply moving back to a pure fighter for "fighting." I still haven't done more than rank 1 of a couple of engineer mods, but flying a fun little Vulture in a combat zone has gotten A LOT more fun. It's like a CQC fight: opponents that actually present challenge and real threat. I do get a little miffed by the occasional "omg 5 ships just spawned and they're all trying to kill me at the same time," thing, but it's a fair tradeoff to have AI that flies like it has half a brain in its head.
My poor Python is now full of cargo holds incase I ever want to trade; I will never intentionally fly it into combat again.
You can, if you arm your python for fight, mod all MC and pulse lasers with corrosive and thermal, military bulkhead, 2 x SCB of 4 each, 2 x HRP, bi-wave SG and can get a million in rewards in CZ before return to base
I suspect that they have throttled the difficulty quite a bit to make the difficulty dynamic based on the ship and loadout that you are in. Whenever I have engineer goods and my ship is set up for DPS, the NPCs can actually drop my shields occasionally. But when I am in my "healer" spec mode with an empty cargo hold they can't even dent my shields. Same ship, same combat rank: deadly. 2 very different experiences.
I also suspect that the location matters somewhat as well.
I also suspect that the location matters somewhat as well.
Hmm, I've noticed that, too. I wasn't sure if it was my imagination or not, though.
I can kill NPCs with an unengineered viper with a class one bi-weave shield until I run out of ammo. Before the nerf I could kill one maybe two with the same ship. I miss the old hard NPCs and wish they had stayed.
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Donald Trump programmed the computer?
Sorry to do this to your thread guys. I cant make a thread without waiting for a month for it to get verified. Why is it when I buy a new weapon for my ship the auto aim track thing doesnt work anymore? With the starting ship you get that crosshair tracks enemies because flying and aiming is not only impossible but rather offensive that they think we can do it. So I want to know why this happens when I buy a new weapon for my ship ? I want my auto track to work again so if anyone knows why this keeps happening Id like to know how to fix it,thnx. Again sorry for hijacking the thread but making someone wait for the mods to verify a thread is absolutely ridiculous !
If you can't cover your cost you have got to be doing something wrong. Maybe try a bi-weave shield and four resistance augmented shield boosters works a treat in my corvette.
Guys, please I need help with this ...
Sounds to me like you have bought a weapon of the fixed variety. Most weapons come in 3 varieties: Fixed, gimballed and turreted. Fixed (symbol in the outfitting screen looks like a bullseye) do not track at all and are aimed by steering the ship. Gimbals (symbol is two crossed ovals) track to some degree, facing forward direction. Turrets (looks like a turret) will track in every direction so long as their LOS and traverse is not blocked by your vessel.
NOTE:
Not all types are available at every station.
Some weapons only come in fixed variety, and some do not come in turreted version.
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Thats the wrong way to do it with a Python. Its all about the dirty drive tuning with a Python and keeping weight down. Then it will handle like a heavy fighter, similar to an FDL.
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Then you are flying the wrong ship for the job. Try an FDL.