A big (fixable) problem: the player is not supposed to die

Edit note: if you read this as "I think the player should never die", "I think the game should be made even easier" or "I think the game should have lower risks for higher reward" you're reading it basically entirely backwards to my intent. If you could point out the bit(s) of the post that are leading to you that conclusion I might be able to reword them to be clearer.

Edit note: I use "player death" as a shorthand for "failure leading to loss of ship" - I'm aware that David Braben doesn't come round to players houses to execute them if they mess up in his game. (Wasn't that a Stephen King plot?)

Many big problems with Elite Dangerous - it's multiplayer, it's in space, it has a finite budget, it's a bit like Elite - are also its key defining features and the reasons to play it so much. The inevitable compromises aren't great, but we want to play "multiplayer Elite" enough that we (mega-threads aside) usually accept them.

One big fixable problem, however, is that the game is designed so that the player is not supposed to die. We all know players are not supposed to die: "I did X and died" threads exist, and the response is "maybe you're incompetent" rather than "well, yeah".

This causes problems for the game:
1) NPCs can't be made any tougher - and maybe still need nerfing - because if they are they might kill players, which is against the game design.
2) PvP, ending as it often does in a player death, is against the game design (outside of CQC, where players are supposed to die frequently and the game is designed around that)

When a player does die, the risk/cost is wrong. Traders and explorers have more vulnerable ships because their profession requires non-combat internals and lose more cash and progress if they die. A trader buying Palladium for 12.5k per tonne and selling for 14k, for every time they die, they need to make 9 successful trips to cover the lost cargo, plus a few more for the ship rebuy. To do better than break even, even a 5% death rate is tough.

This is impossible to balance. You cannot make NPCs so specifically (not) dangerous to kill a trader only one trip in 20. They're either going to be no threat at all or kill traders so often that they can't turn a profit. For explorers it's even worse - NPCs can never kill an inbound explorer in a balanced way. We say "never fly without rebuy" - but explorers easily carry more exploration data than the ship cost new.

Finally, with the right (not obvious) tricks, you can quickly become a billionaire and not have to care about rebuys anyway.

So it's a mess - the player is not supposed to die, but it really hurts if they do. The players least able to avoid death (traders, explorers, inexperienced) lose the most both proportionally and often absolutely on death, while combat players are at lower risk and lose less. The consequences of this spread out and cause a lot of the bitterest community debates.

So, I can see three basic paths for improvement, all of which would include the removal of fast escape mechanisms such as submit-highwake. There are probably others, too!

1) Implement "lack of player failure" properly.

Players aren't supposed to fail - so players can't fail. Anything which would cause fatal hull or module damage to a player has no effect. (Yes, this is sarcasm, but it would at least be consistent...)


2) Remove penalties for failure almost entirely.

Destroyed players return to their last station with their ship and all attached cargo, data, transactions, missions, etc. in the state they were in immediately prior to destruction. Pay for repair to damaged subsystems and hull as if you'd narrowly escaped instead, and pay fines as now, but that's all.

Piracy gets a bit harder since players have no incentive to give up cargo - if you kill them with it on board, they keep it, whereas if they give it up (or you steal it) they actually lose it - but without fast escape there's time to force cargo drops, and hatchbreakers can be buffed.

NPCs can now be made much tougher because they don't cause significant losses - even one successful trade trip will make enough profit to pay for a few full repairs. Similarly it's not a big deal if a player shoots you down - just get back out there and shoot back!

This "equalises upwards" the experience so that failure has the same effective consequences for everyone as it does for the current ultra-rich.


3) Rebalance the professions so failure costs are more similar in terms of "time to recover"

This one is complicated and I've left out the details because they'd need months of adjustment to get right. The aim is to allow players to be killed without making this prohibitively difficult to recover from - but keeping the current gameplay where it does have a cost which one would wish to avoid if possible.

General: combat-oriented equipment and ships have much higher rebuy %, non-combat have much lower rebuy %. Buff NPC numbers and skills enough that they can be a threat to anyone; use system security levels and an expanded player reputation system (reprisals) to allow players to find their own level for risk/reward.

Trade: much better sell:buy ratios. Increase pirate threat significantly.

Exploration: introduce a network of UC comms relays every few kLY across the galaxy to allow periodic sale of data - avoid the all or nothing nature of exploration by being able to cash in every few million (like a trader or fighter can). Introduce more exploration hazards of various sorts.

Losing a non-combat ship should be less punishing in terms of successes-to-recover; losing a combat ship is worse than losing a non-combat ship (but still less likely). Players can largely avoid combat at the cost of profitability by sticking to high security systems and not taking on missions which actively harm opposed factions.

Billionaires will have a lot of enemies, so while making a billion might be "easy", keeping it can be made as hard as necessary for balance.

In contrast to '2' this is intended to "equalise downwards" so that failure is a concern and possibility for everyone (and perhaps more so for the "endgame" players).

(This is my favourite option and so of course it's by far the hardest to implement)
 
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I don't think I really understand your reasoning for these sweeping changes. You want to skew all the variables in order to make the game easier?
I agree that there should be a balance, but I think you're going too far. For me, the fun of this game comes from the risk. Every choice has a consequence, every time you leave a station you're rolling the dice. This is done in order to create an atmosphere of risk/reward. Spaceflight is dangerous, and I thought the goal of this game was to recreate that feeling in the player. (I think of the first Alien movie and how it felt, how just a small problem can end up being catastrophic, and the crew have no one to help them but themselves)
 
I still think explorers should have the option of releasing data bouys on death, or being able to a limited number of hide data caches in systems, that could be collected on death, to help mitigate the 'loss of everything' problem.

I'm certainly not in favour of removing death completely - but would love to see the introduction of flyable escape pods (but then that leads to people wanting to destroy or scoop pods - humans are evil :D ).
 
I fixed all these problems for myself by implementing permadeath. If I get 'killed' in-game then I wipe my save and start over.
It's the only way I can play. There's no real penalty on ship destruction otherwise.
I also don't understand why everyone should expect to make money. It should be possible to go broke in this game.
 
I disagree with the overwhelming majority of your ideas, they would trivialise the game too much.

But I do agree that explorers have more to lose than most other professions in the event of their death.

Now that we apparently have the technology to 3D print fighters, I'd like to see a similar module for explorers, 3D printing navigation beacons.

That way, at certain intervals in their journey, the Explorer can create and deploy a navigation beacon which they can then upload their data to. If they die, they still go back to the last station docked. Now I'm weary that this may induce some Jaques behaviour, whereby they upload their data and then suicide to get back to the bubble. I'm not sure quite how to combat that. Perhaps uploading your data to a nav beacon only gives you 50% pay out and the remaining when they reach a Universal Cartographics?

Obviously there would need to be restrictions on how many beacons that an Explorer can deploy, in my mind it's not something you're going to be doing every jump, but maybe every 1k light years.
 
Enforced perma death would be great (in all games- especially MMO's), but no comercial game will dare implement it nowadays. Me and an old EQ guildmate used to semi-joke about having our own mmo where if killed your character would be perma killed, your account IP banned and your credit card blacklisted...... plus a team of Ninja dwarves would come round to your house and kick the crap out of you - ah kids today... so soft :p
 
I don't think I really understand your reasoning for these sweeping changes. You want to skew all the variables in order to make the game easier?
Not necessarily - option 3 would generally make it harder. (And option 2 would allow the individual fights and environment to be harder, though the consequences of losing - as with the original games' ability to save/reload - would be less)

Every time I leave a station I am not rolling the dice, as it stands - my ship especially post-engineers is for all intents and purposes invulnerable to anything short of a coordinated skilled PvP attack (which has never happened to me in Open yet). I am not supposed to die as the game is currently designed, and indeed - a very few bits of stupid overconfidence aside - I don't. ED is currently like the rejected draft of the Alien movie script - the one where they put four pips to systems when they saw the facehugger, it bounced off the helmet, hit a mine, blew up, and then they all highwaked out of there.

When I first started in my Sidewinder, I was expecting to get blown up a lot as I went around: what actually happened was I spent two weeks not getting attacked at all, was finally interdicted by another inexperienced player in a Cobra and killed, then didn't die again until I took a multi-month break from the game and decided my first combat should be soloing a distress call in an underequipped Asp.
 
It's the only way I can play. There's no real penalty on ship destruction otherwise.
I also don't understand why everyone should expect to make money. It should be possible to go broke in this game.

Oh GOD yes! I would love it if most of us were barely making a living and struggling for the enough credits to make repairs or afford fuel for the next jump. Would be SO MUCH better then a galaxy full of immortal billionaires.
 
Oh GOD yes! I would love it if most of us were barely making a living and struggling for the enough credits to make repairs or afford fuel for the next jump. Would be SO MUCH better then a galaxy full of immortal billionaires.

How about you worry about your own existance. What the heck is with this "I am the community I speak for it and I shall darn well immerse on behalf of it" attitude.

Stop it. What would be truely better?

People play the game for who and what they wish to stand for. Let others do the same. This recent poll has brought out a very ugly part of the community.

That being "I know how everyone else should play". Just stop. Enough. It's ridiculous. I have no problem with people expressing opinion and constructive feedback on game improvements.

But this incessant need to stamp authoritative change against the community (rather than for it) is driving me bonkers.
 
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Oh GOD yes! I would love it if most of us were barely making a living and struggling for the enough credits to make repairs or afford fuel for the next jump. Would be SO MUCH better then a galaxy full of immortal billionaires.

That's how ED looked like in 1.0 and 1.1.

And it wasn't fun.
 
That's how ED looked like in 1.0 and 1.1.

And it wasn't fun.

Beg to differ. I'd rather the game didn't throw credits at you constantly. It would make the big losses and big wins more meaningful. OK, yes it would hamper those people who just want to throw ships into combat and not care about the rebuys.

<Looks at side panel>In ~1300 hours of play I've spent just over 1m cr on fuel, 1.1m cr on ammunition and 12m on repairs. I can make the same as those amount in under 1-day's play. Does that strike you as well balanced?
 
Actually, yes, agreed. I'll just remove my reply too.

SImply put, the game is easy enough as is...
Z...
 
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I really do not get how so many people are interpreting "the game is currently designed around nothing bad ever happening to players and this is a problem because it means the game must be kept really easy" as "we should make the game even easier".
 
How about you worry about your own existance. What the heck is with this "I am the community I speak for it and I shall darn well immerse on behalf of it" attitude.

Stop it. What would be truely better?

People play the game for who and what they wish to stand for. Let others do the same. This recent poll has brought out a very ugly part of the community.

That being "I know how everyone else should play". Just stop. Enough. It's ridiculous. I have no problem with people expressing opinion and constructive feedback on game improvements.

But this incessant need to stamp authoritative change against the community (rather than for it) is driving me bonkers.

It was a "pie in the sky" comment. I'm totally aware that how I choose to play Elite is not the way the majority of the community does and that I certainly don't speak for the community. I immerse for myself :)

I choose to wipe my game save when I get destroyed because I genuinely enjoy the uphill struggle. I'm fully aware that the majority of the people playing Elite: Dangerous would never play again if getting destroyed meant loosing all their stuff and progress. Someday, hopefully many, many, many years from now when Frontier closes the door on Elite Dangerous maybe they'll do as they promised and release the code to the community and I'll be able to enjoy my own private galaxy where permadeath and the ability to go broke are implemented.

I wouldn't wish that on the community as it would bankrupt Frontier with the number of people who would pull their support.
 
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