So fed up with interdiction spam

[Curried-Cat]

I got fed up with the constant and repeated interdictions as well. Was about to call it quits but then I realised it only ever happened if I had engineer commodities. Dumped those and it's gone back to the old days of infrequent interdictions and none of the same pilot chasing you across the galaxy all day.

Smells like a poorly thought out game play mechanic.

 

[Lucius-Darcia]

So I do understand your dislike of the instantaneous feel to this and it is actually scripted (what I mean by that is the aggressors are spawned via script rather than physically controlling the AI in real time in the back ground). I get why that might irk you.

However, I may have misunderstood you but your post seems to suggest that you think it's impossible for them to follow you into SC immediately after you jump,just because you submitted.

If you submit, then both you and the other ship have the same reduced cool down on the FSD. So it's entirely possible that they can follow you immediately.

So it's not cheating AI.

But it is scripted. If you have them targeted when you are charging your FSD, I don't believe it tells you their charging theirs as well. And that break in continuity is highlighted by the scripted nature of their resulting appearance in SC.

The same applies when you drop out of SC and they follow you. It's a set time, scripted again.

I get it. It's not fully human. It can feel a little false. But it's pretty obvious that the demands on coding AI to calculate in real time when they're not actually present is either prohibitive or too complex to achieve when a simple script does the trick.

Their persistence is annoying. But if you could simply evade them at the click of a button then it would be pointless to even have them in the first place. There are a few procedures you can employ to evade them most of the time. These procedures take more time and a tiny bit more effort. But they save you time in the long run.

So I get you'd prefer it if the AI was all controlled even whilst the game is generating your new instance (it can't, most of us who have been around since beta understand that) but it isn't. But you've obviously tried doing the same thing repeatedly, despite your conclusion that it doesn't work. You've realised that (exaggerations aside, because we all are guilty of exaggerating when we get frustrated), you can drop in and out of SC 20 times and not shake them. Yet you still feel that high waking or using the star to drop them out of SC permanently (for that system) aren't suitable solutions. I'm guessing that's because you think that takes too much time.

I'll let you into a secret. High waking (then jumping back) or taking a few extra seconds, when you initially jump into the final system in your route, to stop and turn away from the star (forcing the AI to fly behind you, crash into the star's mass lock and exit onto normal space), is a whole world faster than belly-flopping in SC 20 times.

I've given you a couple tricks to help you compete your missions faster. I did several smuggling runs with multiple persistent AI tracking me and these worked perfectly for me everytime. Every. Time.

It's your choice to ignore them in preference of hoping FD will change everything to make it so your life is easier.

Personally, I've felt that submitting and boost has been such a weak mechanic for such a long, long time. FD admitted that it is undesirable some time ago and Sandro wants to make it work differently. But nothing came off it as yet.

This is how it works now. It's not prefect but it is playable.

Sry you are wrong. The aggressor get's ALWAYS an increased cooldown on the fsd so he can't follow me as same fast. Try it yourself

 

[Ozzie F Isaacs]

Yup, I agree this is bad design and needs to change. If you force them to flee then that should be it. No more interdiction from them.

Agreed, giving your pursuer a good kicking should stop them coming back for a second go. The repairing thing is a bug though and doesn't always happen.

I think that interdiction spam can be fixed quite simply though. Just make it so that an interdiction submission requires the consent of both parties... which is something that will not be offered twice. Interdiction submission should exist only for allowing system authority to scan you or for paying pirate tithe. If you submit and refuse to allow a scan or pay the tithe, the next time they interdict you it should to violently pull you out of cruise and subject you to the full cool down penalty.

 

[Lucius-Darcia]

Just interested to know but do you think a human player who wanted to pirate you would let you submit, boost, jump to SC and then let you go? I'm pretty sure they don't.

I'm just wondering why anyone feels the idea that one submit and boost cycle is a realistic way to shake someone who wants to destroy you. To me, before these scripted NPCs existed, it was so laughably easy to shake them, particularly given they ceased to exist once you jumped back to SC, that it was anything but immersive.

Once you use the game's physics against them, by forcing them to emergency stop into a star's corona, thus preventing them from chasing you for quite some time, it suddenly feels a lot more real than it was before. Now, if they ignored the star's mass lock range and flew through it... then I'd agree that it's rubbish. But they don't. They obey at least that law of the game. You can choose not to use it and just flop in and out of SC, hoping they'll have a change of heart (when in reality, you're just hoping you can game the situation and complete your task with the least possible effort) but it doesn't seem to work very well, does it?

And it shouldn't.

There was a time when submitting wasn't a benefit (before FD introduced the extended FSD cooldown timer when you emergency stopped). Interdictions were a bit more scary then. Then submit became a thing and escape was as easy as three key presses.

It might be a bit scripty and it's definitely harassment. And I agree it could be fine tuned to work better in some cases. But I don't think FD can control AI when A: You're jumping or B: The AI doesn't actually exist as an object in your instance. Because of that, they're mission scripted events. It's not perfect. But the alternative (not having them at all) would be a massive step backwards. Take it from someone who played in beta.

Aaaand what ya tell about forcing them to a emergency stop to a star....try the following
-Bring your back to the star so that they get an emergency stop
-Travel a few lightseconds away and THAN drop out of supercruise
-tell me again that the insta spawn of this emergency-stopped-but-now-being-right-in-front-of-you-insta-spawn-magic-npc is immersive!![weird]

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

This actually may be the heart of the problem though...

The fact that many players prefer (or feel they need) to run away from an interdictor, rather than fighting and destroying it is part of what's causing the issue. I've said often that NPC's are our content, there for our 'entertainment', but if players are preferring to avoid that content when it's presented to them, and it then just follows them around it becomes irritating.

It is also frustrating / annoying when you do fight back, get the upper hand, and they run away and then interdict you again. That's not really realistic, expecting a different outcome for no good reason (it's not like they come back in a wing ).

Problem for FD is that if they make them too easy, so players want to hang around and fight (which is presumably the point of the interdiction in the first place), then they get nothing but complaints from the 'NPCs are a joke' crowd, and if they make them too hard, then they get these complaints from players who find them over the top. A very difficult balancing act for FD I suspect.

Npc interdictions are just a part of the game. But it makes me feel that is ALL the game. Sry bit when i haul 640t of palladium or such i can understand for some intrest.
But when i carry 4t RNG-crap as last mission reward i can't understan why half pilots of the hole galaxy wanna rip my *backside* for it and feel free to waste ships for it millions of credits worth [weird]

 

[Ozzie F Isaacs]

Aaaand what ya tell about forcing them to a emergency stop to a star....try the following
-Bring your back to the star so that they get an emergency stop
-Travel a few lightseconds away and THAN drop out of supercruise
-tell me again that the insta spawn of this emergency-stopped-but-now-being-right-in-front-of-you-insta-spawn-magic-npc is immersive!![weird]

NPC's should respect your exploit? It will do for me as a placeholder until they fix the NPC's flying into stars.

 

[Faded Glory]

Agreed, giving your pursuer a good kicking should stop them coming back for a second go. The repairing thing is a bug though and doesn't always happen.

It's not really a bug, it's a result of NPCs not being persistent. It's also illogical for an NPC that has been outmatched to return and try their hand again, unless it was a very close fight (and then they must return with whatever shield / hull damage you inflicted or it is a blatant cheat). Simply makes no sense. But the game is saying you will be pursued, that's why they keep re-spawning.

I think that interdiction spam can be fixed quite simply though. Just make it so that an interdiction submission requires the consent of both parties... which is something that will not be offered twice. Interdiction submission should exist only for allowing system authority to scan you or for paying pirate tithe. If you submit and refuse to allow a scan or pay the tithe, the next time they interdict you it should to violently pull you out of cruise and subject you to the full cool down penalty.

Doesn't this simply give the aggressor an "I win" button? If I'm smuggling, and a mission spawns an authority ship to scan me, then that simply means at some point I will fail the mission and / or get fined... As for NPC 'pirates', I'm not sure they accept tithes, they just want to see you explode.

 

[Ozzie F Isaacs]

It's not really a bug, it's a result of NPCs not being persistent. It's also illogical for an NPC that has been outmatched to return and try their hand again, unless it was a very close fight (and then they must return with whatever shield / hull damage you inflicted or it is a blatant cheat). Simply makes no sense. But the game is saying you will be pursued, that's why they keep re-spawning.

Agreed, but it is certainly something that F-Dev should be trying their damnest to fix or workaround. The non-persistence of NPC's is crippling what they can do with the missions system.

Doesn't this simply give the aggressor an "I win" button? If I'm smuggling, and a mission spawns an authority ship to scan me, then that simply means at some point I will fail the mission and / or get fined... As for NPC 'pirates', I'm not sure they accept tithes, they just want to see you explode.

Once you remove the exploit you can balance it better just by playing with the numbers, reduce the difficulty for the interdictee, increase the timer for pirates to await cargo drops, lower the persistence/chance of police spot checks. If you are smuggling you should at least have the competence to be able to evade an interdiction with two attempts.

 

[bubbabenali]

I think that interdiction spam can be fixed quite simply though. Just make it so that an interdiction submission requires the consent of both parties... which is something that will not be offered twice. Interdiction submission should exist only for allowing system authority to scan you or for paying pirate tithe. If you submit and refuse to allow a scan or pay the tithe, the next time they interdict you it should to violently pull you out of cruise and subject you to the full cool down penalty.

The aggressor interdicts you, you submit to it. I don't see any kind of dissensus in the current system.

 

[Faded Glory]

Agreed, but it is certainly something that F-Dev should be trying their damnest to fix or workaround. The non-persistence of NPC's is crippling what they can do with the missions system.

The non persistence of NPCs is messing with all sorts of gameplay, hence these kinds of threads...

Once you remove the exploit you can balance it better just by playing with the numbers, reduce the difficulty for the interdictee, increase the timer for pirates to await cargo drops, lower the persistence/chance of police spot checks. If you are smuggling you should at least have the competence to be able to evade an interdiction with two attempts.

I'm not sure submitting to an interdiction and 'fleeing' is an exploit.

As I've written in previous posts, the point of an interdiction is presumably to 'entertain' a player, give them some content to react to. This could be fighting the interdiction (although for some players the mini game seems very bugged), or submitting and fighting the aggressor. If neither of these are desirable to a player, for reasons of skill / balance / whatever, there is a problem. Forcing un-desired content onto players with no way of avoiding it will potentially drive players from the game, not something FD want to happen I imagine.

But yes, balancing in favor of the player (which I imagine would not be universally popular, there seem to be some players who are desperate to get their butts handed to them by NPCs ) would be a good solution. Again though, the non persistence of the NPCs gets in the way. It's not an NPC after you really, it's just the game saying that because condition x exists (you have a mission, are carrying specific cargo for example), you will have obstacles put in your way. That's great if players want to and feel able to overcome those obstacles, but if they don't want to, or feel they cannot, it becomes a problem.

I honestly don't think that FD designed all of this with the thought that players would submit and try to avoid the content.

 

[Ozzie F Isaacs]

I'm not sure submitting to an interdiction and 'fleeing' is an exploit.

As I've written in previous posts, the point of an interdiction is presumably to 'entertain' a player, give them some content to react to. This could be fighting the interdiction (although for some players the mini game seems very bugged), or submitting and fighting the aggressor. If neither of these are desirable to a player, for reasons of skill / balance / whatever, there is a problem. Forcing un-desired content onto players with no way of avoiding it will potentially drive players from the game, not something FD want to happen I imagine.

But yes, balancing in favor of the player (which I imagine would not be universally popular, there seem to be some players who are desperate to get their butts handed to them by NPCs ) would be a good solution. Again though, the non persistence of the NPCs gets in the way. It's not an NPC after you really, it's just the game saying that because condition x exists (you have a mission, are carrying specific cargo for example), you will have obstacles put in your way. That's great if players want to and feel able to overcome those obstacles, but if they don't want to, or feel they cannot, it becomes a problem.

I honestly don't think that FD designed all of this with the thought that players would submit and try to avoid the content.

Sure, when they created this system, I don't think the intention was, submit, boost, frameshift, interdict, repeat. And having the combat optional is IMHO really bad game design. Pirates are supposed to be a threat not an annoyance. There should be more ways to predictably avoid pirates, a much more nuanced system security mechanic, police should be able to get a local wanted flag up on a target at the same speed a player can (at the minute it seems like they need to do a cargo scan) and much much more. But there is no point adding any of that stuff, so long as the current submit mechanic makes combat totally optional. If people had to deal with the enemy that was interdicting them, nobody would be complaining about 'interdiction spam'.

 

[Faded Glory]

Sure, when they created this system, I don't think the intention was, submit, boost, frameshift, interdict, repeat. And having the combat optional is IMHO really bad game design. Pirates are supposed to be a threat not an annoyance.

To a point I agree, but only to a point. Forcing combat on players as the only type of challenge the game can throw at them limits how difficult that combat can be before the game alienates too great a proportion of the players. This is already evident, at least on the forums, with some players complaining that NPCs are too hard while others beg FD to give them some kind of a challenge.

I suspect FD have data / metrics which help them try and match the difficulty level to some kind of sweet spot.

There should be more ways to predictably avoid pirates, a much more nuanced system security mechanic, police should be able to get a local wanted flag up on a target at the same speed a player can (at the minute it seems like they need to do a cargo scan) and much much more. But there is no point adding any of that stuff, so long as the current submit mechanic makes combat totally optional.

Can't really disagree with that, although some might argue that putting in these mechanics might solve the problem.

If people had to deal with the enemy that was interdicting them, nobody would be complaining about 'interdiction spam'.

No, they'd be complaining (as some already do) that the game destroyed them!

So, back to square one, how can FD make a universally challenging AI? I'm not sure they can.

On a side note, part of the issue could be that the mechanics of destruction in the game are making some players very risk averse. Because players cannot save their state at any time they wish (and I understand why this is so from an MMO point of view), they potentially stand to lose quite a bit of time investment if / when they are destroyed. In previous versions of the game that I played, I could save my CMDR just before taking on a risky situation. If I lost, no problem, I reload my save and try again, cargo intact, missions intact. In ED, the repercussions for destruction can be significant, both in terms of credits, but more importantly in terms of play time.

 

[Queebatron]

Is it even worth trying to escape an interdiction these days? It seems that the red bar starts out 3/4 filled. Even controlling with a HOTAS it seems you'd have no chance.

 

[Ydiss]

Sry you are wrong. The aggressor get's ALWAYS an increased cooldown on the fsd so he can't follow me as same fast. Try it yourself

If you submit, neither ship emergency stops. That's how it's been since the beginning. Then FD added the extended cool down at some point in 1.xx but only applied it to an emergency stop scenario (which is what happens when you lose the interdiction).

If you're correct then something changed since I last played and I missed it. But I can't see why FD would have made a submit scenario result in an extended delay for the aggressor.

I'll reserve the right to be proved wrong but I can't play to test it out for a couple days. So if anyone else fancies backing you up...

 

[Faded Glory]

Is it even worth trying to escape an interdiction these days? It seems that the red bar starts out 3/4 filled. Even controlling with a HOTAS it seems you'd have no chance.

As I said, for some players the mini game appears somewhat bugged...

If you submit, neither ship emergency stops. That's how it's been since the beginning. Then FD added the extended cool down at some point in 1.xx but only applied it to an emergency stop scenario (which is what happens when you lose the interdiction).

If you're correct then something changed since I last played and I missed it. But I can't see why FD would have made a submit scenario result in an extended delay for the aggressor.

I'll reserve the right to be proved wrong but I can't play to test it out for a couple days. So if anyone else fancies backing you up...

I'm not sure, as I always submit and either fight or flee, depending on my ship and that of the interdictor. I have also found the mini game to be too unpredictable (bugged?) to bother with since 1.4. Either that or I'm just not good enough...

However, here's a thought.

Make a contested interdiction slightly more punishing for the aggressor, giving the loser (assuming they lose) a slightly better chance of fighting or fleeing. This might get more players to actually try and evade rather than just submit and boost.

 

[Ydiss]

I'm not sure, as I always submit and either fight or flee, depending on my ship and that of the interdictor. I have also found the mini game to be too unpredictable (bugged?) to bother with since 1.4. Either that or I'm just not good enough...

However, here's a thought.

Make a contested interdiction slightly more punishing for the aggressor, giving the loser (assuming they lose) a slightly better chance of fighting or fleeing. This might get more players to actually try and evade rather than just submit and boost.

I'm pretty much 99% sure he's incorrect. The 1% doubt only exists because I had a few months out of the game recently so there's a slim chance it's changed and if it has then I wouldn't have seen the change.

If it hasn't changed, then he isn't correct because the way it's always worked since I last played was submit = shorter cool down for both ships.

 

[Faded Glory]

I'm pretty much 99% sure he's incorrect. The 1% doubt only exists because I had a few months out of the game recently so there's a slim chance it's changed and if it has then I wouldn't have seen the change.

If it hasn't changed, then he isn't correct because the way it's always worked since I last played was submit = shorter cool down for both ships.

Yep, agreed, that's how it worked, as I said, not tried it recently, and against NPCs in any case it's not always clear if they submit or just suffered insta loss. I think you'd have to test that with another player.

 

[Lucius-Darcia]

Pls have always in mind that the ability to win an interdiction depends very strong on the supercruise ability of a ship itself.
You will find that you can win in a Type-6 every interdiction as long as you don't fatfinger somehow.
But in a Type-9 you can try to fight the interdiction only to find that it's 95% impossible for dat fat thing to win. Just because he barely can maneuver in supercruise.
So pls have always in mind which ship you are flying when getting interdicted.

 

[Queebatron]

Pls have always in mind that the ability to win an interdiction depends very strong on the supercruise ability of a ship itself.
You will find that you can win in a Type-6 every interdiction as long as you don't fatfinger somehow.
But in a Type-9 you can try to fight the interdiction only to find that it's 95% impossible for dat fat thing to win. Just because he barely can maneuver in supercruise.
So pls have always in mind which ship you are flying when getting interdicted.

Well, I'm in an Asp Explorer these days, and while it's not an Eagle or anything, it's not a Type 9 either. I should be able to get away if another Asp is interdicting me, but as I say, lately it seems the red bar automatically starts out 3/4 full, and there's no point even trying to evade and risking damage to the FSD plus cooldown (not to mention that the NPC pirates just shoot you anyway even if you do drop cargo in my experience).

 

[CrushBug]

Is it even worth trying to escape an interdiction these days? It seems that the red bar starts out 3/4 filled. Even controlling with a HOTAS it seems you'd have no chance.

I can do it about 60% of the time if I am in my Cobra, but otherwise, I just submit (and start running if it isn't the Navy).

 

[Mephane]

Sure, when they created this system, I don't think the intention was, submit, boost, frameshift, interdict, repeat.

Probably, but what is the alternative in the current implementation? Interdiction, try to escape, fail to escape, long FSD cooldown, module damage (oh the cargo hatch spilled all the modular terminals), shields down, still FSD cooldown, finally made it into supercruise with 50% hull left, *poof* interdicted again 1 second later.