Exploration Scans

My issue is this, for over 12 months I have scanned most almost everything with a detailed surface scanner, yes it takes a long time but hey that's my choice. Now if I have to go back and do it all again because of some new rule/procedure, I am unhappy and feel I have wasted my time. I haven't played the game since this line of thinking was revealed as I don't know if it will be relevant or not.

Whatever line you choose it needs to backwards compatible IMO.
 
First 2 scanners will be next to useless as before anyway...
Only new players will use them until they get 1,5m for adv

If you listen the video there are reasons to pick one over the other that are suggested. Perhaps moving the basic scanner to a utility slot, and increasing the weight of the advanced scanner since it saves you more time than the current 2.1 version.

It's all about trade offs, but also includes interesting gameplay differences and reasons to choose each kind.
 
For general scanning & exploration improvements, I think the Detailed Surface Scanner needs to have more of a niche.

I think as we get more landable planets the DSS should be more and more relevant. (planets with atmospheres, exploring cloud giants, eventually life)

At the moment you fly through space or over a planet, randomly you'll get a "USS/POI" popping up. I think this mechanic should be expanded to show persistant points of interest such as the coming ruins, crashed ships etc. when you scan a planet.

Basically the DSS should follow what your original concept showed:
MVB7jjf.gif
 
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Honestly, I'm not sure. Whatever the outcome, I'll need to test it to make my mind. (I didn't play this beta, wanted to keep fresh for official launch).
 
I'm going to put my 2 cents here. I don't see any particular reason to leave the system obscure after the honk. In RL we have something called spectroscopy, which allows us to know if a body is rocky, icy or gaseous right here, from old Earth. So it makes sense to me that once you honk, you reveal the bodies and their surfaces.

About ideas to make exploration more interesting, what about using the surface scanner to check if a specific zone contains valuable resources? For instance, we sent probes to discover and study the hydrocarbon lakes on Titan... They would be larger and persistant POIs on the surface... There could also be some "special" POIs with stuff that you don't usually see on the other POIs (like ehm... mysterious things...).
 
Thanks for the update.
I personally feel OA nailed it on his youtube coverage where he said doing detailed scans to get the surface map is kinda redundant in 90% of cases as you are already close enough to see it visually.

I do think so much more can be done with the 3 grades of discovery scanner though, hopefully more to come when the rest of the planet types get landable etc.
 
I'm going to put my 2 cents here. I don't see any particular reason to leave the system obscure after the honk. In RL we have something called spectroscopy, which allows us to know if a body is rocky, icy or gaseous right here, from old Earth. So it makes sense to me that once you honk, you reveal the bodies and their surfaces.

About ideas to make exploration more interesting, what about using the surface scanner to check if a specific zone contains valuable resources? For instance, we sent probes to discover and study the hydrocarbon lakes on Titan... They would be larger and persistant POIs on the surface... There could also be some "special" POIs with stuff that you don't usually see on the other POIs (like ehm... mysterious things...).

Like this! (I'm going to post this gif a lot in this thread. It's a concept that I think should be expanded upon)

MVB7jjf.gif
 
The problem with people wanting to differentiate by type discovery scanner is that every proposal still makes the advanced discovery scanner objectively better than the intermediate or basic. In which case, no-one who is more than a few hours in to the game will take anything other than the advanced and whatever nuanced gameplay ideas there were go away.

I don't have any particular suggestions as to how to fix this, but I don't see any of the existing suggestions being anything other than a waste of FD's time to implement.
 
Hello Commander MyHammer!

So i guess one of the things we're asking for in this thread is: what kind of more fundametnal changes to exploration and sanning would folk be interested in seeing?

I'm just not sure if we can have any radical changes so far into release, but hey, there's always a tiny chance!

So.

1. The whole idea of just getting anywhere from anywhere easily is boring. If we would have to actually explore stuff, fighting the unknown and facing other perils, it would be more fun. So, these are the possible ways to do it:
a. Player will spend X tons a day of water, oxygen, maybe even food outside the bubble. Player can mine ice asteroids in rings to replenish water that can also be turned into oxygen. Food will probably have to wait until we can land on atmospheric planets.
b. Jumps shouldn't always just be perfect. If you plot a route, the further any next jump is from the nearest system you discovered properly, the further will precision deteriorate. Nothing as bad as jumping into stars but maybe eventual drops 200k from star or on the planet's orbit into mass lock? (easy mode)
c. There should be some kind of system preventing people from jumping into yet unknown to them regions on space. Perhaps the jump into systems without nav beacon would require a set of coordinates, and in order to get those coordinates, you would need to "scan" the star from at least 3 other systems, making any way towards the unknown slow and careful. Each scan will be supposed to give 1 part of coordinates up to 3 sets, but if you are feeling lucky, you may try guessing 1 or 2 of them - with some bad results if you didn't guess right. Obviously, people will create third party tools for exploration where people will share their coordinates and all, but that's still a bit more fun (normal mode)
d. You can only jump to the stars you see until you visited them, in which case you can just plot stuff from galmap like now. Galmap itself doesn't show you any specific stars when you zoom in on the region you know. (hard mode)
e. More deterioration, but more ways to set up camps and small bases and automated mines producing materials for repairs and stuff. Make voyage into unknown dangerous but doable if people are working on it. Make whatever people do persistent!
f. Since most of the milky way is already basically known (i mean sure we discovered maybe 0.002% of it, but all the interesting stuff is already mapped), all this will probably never work in our galaxy. But hey, there's andromeda right there if you look out of the window... If you know what i mean.
2. Scanning planets and exploring planets right now is super boring. We need to improve it somehow.
a. If anything from part 1 goes live, we'll obviously need to buff payouts for ELWs at least - by order of magnitude at least. Discoveries should be rare, but make your heart beat - not like now, when you just honk, look at sysmap and lazily go towards the next interesting planet for some cheap buck and a name on it.
b. The only interesting part about exploration was trying to select the correct planet based on their orbit - before planets became selectable on system map. How about we get rid of it for unexplored systems?
c. Perhaps the scan shouldn't be that precise. Again, how about first initial scan only giving us the systemmap with unselectable planets and like 10x the objects in left panel? So in order to get rid of false positives, we would either need to scan from other directions and from far away, or just go and check them all with our eyes.
d. Surface scanning right now doesn't mean anything. After 2.2, we will at least get material composition and surface 3d map. That's nice but still nothing interesting. Well, how about surface scan highlighting the areas with possible stuff going on? Such as higher than the average amount of [insert rare material], or maybe traces of ship wreck with some weak SOS, or maybe trace of SOMETHING UTTERLY MYSTERIOUS. Give us the general direction and make us fly close and start flying in circles?
e. Promote multiplayer and eventually multicrew by making all such activities easier for many people. Such as - circling around the presumed area of interest not just in mothership but also in fighters. Stuff like that.
f. Make weird celestial bodies affect our ships. Random screw ups will go a long way towards fun if you know that flying around planet too close to sun in realspace will maybe reset your thrusters from time to time because of solar flares and whatnow.
g. Satellites! Bring some on your way. Place them on different orbits of planet you seem to like or get strange readings from. Go away for a week. Come back and whoa, did the satellites just find khar toba engineered huge plasma with perfect roll on whatever effect there is? Neato!
3. Make explorers benefit from meeting each other from time to time.
a. Let them, say, exchange their data, not messing first discovery status but giving out more money in the end.
b. Or hell, maybe even messing up with first discovery. Make data actually piratable, so that one could ambush the other and take their exploration for themselves.
c. Make exploration data saved on some kind of black box you drop after you die, so that if you get back and find it, it's all there. Or if someone else finds it, then it's his. I know the woes and banes of persistence, but, well... maybe you can get it work somehow. Something like black box database and then you check it on every hyperjump, so that if you jump into some system with one, it then gets the exact location etc. etc. Also, make it only droppable in open because solo is basically the opposite of meeting people anyway.
d. If we could have weird artifacts that affect our stats, like, weird black blob in cargo giving you +5% jump range, it would be a very, very nice motivation to explore.

I should probably get back to work.
 
Thanks for being clear about the process and for being prepared to listen to/read feedback and suggestions! Although I do not have beta access, the system as described above from the beta sounds like something that I would be happy with, as it provides a role for both the discovery scanner and the detailed surface scanner. This is the important part: I am able to make a choice as to how I explore based upon what I am looking for. If I want to do everything and leave no stone unturned in each system, then I need both scanners and to scan everything individually. If I just want a system overview, then I can use the advanced discovery scanner and evaluate my findings then as to whether or not the system merits more of my time.
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My suggestion: a combined discovery and detailed surface scanner with limited range. This would give complete information, as if a detailed surface scan had been done, on all celestial bodies within range when used. It would take up a size 2 compartment, at least, but be a single module - one of the most-requested features I have read about on the forums. It is important that the range be limited and the precise range would need some testing to find a balance between usefulness and replacing the combination of Advanced Discovery Scanner and Detailed Surface Scanner, which would remain the only way to be sure you had not missed anything in a system (e.g. very distant circumbinary planets and asteroid belts).
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Example Use Case: a DBX with shields, fuel scoop, SRV, 'Combined Discovery and Surface Scanner' (range 3000Ls here) and a cargo rack visits the Witch Head Nebula to look for worlds with canyons suitable for finding Barnacles or for canyon/SRV racing. Activating the scanner upon arrival in each system visited reveals the inner planets in that system, their moons and, in some cases, a gas giant or two and their moons; more distant worlds and the planets of more remote secondary stars must be located by eye with parallax and approached individually. The player can quickly find interesting locations near to the jump-in point but will have to spend some time to get a good overview of each system and could never be sure that they had not missed any particularly remote planets. If the same player wanted to be sure they had not missed any interesting landables, then they would need the Advanced Discovery Scanner and Detailed Surface Scanner but would have to visit every planet they wanted to examine more closely and would not be able to fit a cargo rack to bring back any meta-alloys or salvaged goods. The player has a choice to how to go about their search and has new options available as the combined scanner allows ships with fewer internal compartments to be used in that role.
 
Surface scan for surface map is no brainer - it is just logic step. "But I can't cherry pick locations" isn't really exploration, nor should be treated as one. I personally think people engaging in grinding trough systems are themselves only to blame and it should be used as qualifier for measuring how good or bad feature is.

Just my opinion, of course.
 
Thanks for the update.
I personally feel OA nailed it on his youtube coverage where he said doing detailed scans to get the surface map is kinda redundant in 90% of cases as you are already close enough to see it visually.

I do think so much more can be done with the 3 grades of discovery scanner though, hopefully more to come when the rest of the planet types get landable etc.

It is however false claim from OA part, most of scans can be done with body barely visible. So no.
 
I'm not sure there's a right answer to this.

All my nerdy hard SF explorer logic screams that the planet surfaces should only really be visible with a closer scan, but as far as making the canyon-hunting etc fun it seems a bit harsh.

As was suggested further up, could there maybe be an engineer upgrade option for the people who really like their canyons?

The main thing I'd like is more detailed info (with fancy infographic geology overlays) to be implemented down the line. I think exploring should feel more like you're investigating and analysing rather than just pressing a button or wandering around hoping. So if I'm looking for a particular element I should be able to have an idea of where to look from orbit if I have the right equipment. I also think this is nicer for POIs etc. Being presented with a set of 10 or 20 places to investigate allows you to make choices about likely areas or orders to do things in or places that look cool. If you're just wandering about hoping things turn up it feels far too passive.
 
I'm not sure there's a right answer to this.

All my nerdy hard SF explorer logic screams that the planet surfaces should only really be visible with a closer scan, but as far as making the canyon-hunting etc fun it seems a bit harsh.

Canyon hunting or canyon grinding?
 
Roll back to 2.2 beta 6, then look at implementing the new scanner version ideas as described by others many times already in multiple threads, and summarised in Obsidian Ant's video.

The majority in the forum threads (#1, #2) want the 2.2b6 mechanics (for now).
The majority in the Reddit threads (#1, #2) want the 2.2b6 mechanics (for now).

The mechanics were promoted during Gamescom as a QOL improvement for all players. The 2.2 betas 1 through 6 showed CMDRs the excellent QOL offered by the mechanics at that time, for many in-game activities, not just exploration. Whether that was the intention or a mistake is now moot.

From a playerbase PR standpoint, there's really only one logical decision to make regarding 2.2's upcoming release (due to lack of dev time to create new mechanics): roll-back to 2.2b6 mechanics. If you keep the 2.2b7 mechanics, it'll be a PR disaster.


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Other future options could be that a discovery scanner ping reveals lower-quality versions of the zoomed-in planet maps. These would allow for non-explorer gameplay to happen (e.g. canyon racers) while yet still rewarding a high-quality planet map with the close range direct planet scan.
 
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1) When the 3D surface map was revealed, it was touted as a general QoL improvement for all.

This feature should not just be for Explorers. There are other players who would use the 3D surface map to scout for interesting terrain to canyon race in, for example.

Presumably (would be nice to have confirmation) all the bubble systems that new players start with (already have the system map and details for) will automatically have all planets with the 3D surface map and won't require an additional basic (level 2) or detailed (level 3) scan to reveal. So, those players who want to find an interesting canyon to race in, can do so. If they want to find one no-one knows about then they will have to "explore".

2) Hiding the 3D surface map behind a surface scan renders it pretty much pointless.
I disagree, it makes it something valuable that you have to work for, and this is "fine" because (see above) the bubble systems will come with it built-in and it's only the less travelled systems and the greater galaxy where you have to "explore" for it.

Personally, I like the current beta behaviour (minus the "grey blob" bug of course) as Sandro has described it in post #1. This is an improvement over 2.1 because it adds the detailed/graphical surface view and I don't mind that it requires a surface scan to reveal it. I am assuming that all the default system/planet information a new pilot get includes these surface scan details and that those planets will have the graphical view "by default" with no further scans required.

In the future I would like to see the range of the discovery scanners increased, basic should be 1,000 - 5,000 ls and intermediate 10,000 - 50,000 ls (for example). As it stands people tend not to bother with intermediate, I believe, I certainly didn't bother with it jumping straight to advanced once I had the money and using a basic before that. Intermediate offers so little an improvement that it's not really worth the time.

I would like to see the detailed surface scanner locate (generate) POIs on the planet surface which would contain things like geysers and other large concentrations of salvage, materials, etc - allowing more targetted surface prospecting and collection etc.

I would like for the detailed scanner to locate interesting surface features, like "deepest canyon", "highest peak", "largest plane", etc. Geographical features which are can be found by analysing the data used to render the planet so should be on hand in some form anyway.

I would like to see hand crafted/unique assets for planet surface, like bases built into hillsides, places of natural beauty ("strange rock formations", "interestingly coloured hillsides", etc).

I would like to see beacons at well known locations, like the central star of a nebula, which act like a "visitor book" and a scan will log the player as having visited the location.
 
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For general scanning & exploration improvements, I think the Detailed Surface Scanner needs to have more of a niche.... Basically the DSS should follow what your original concept showed...

Agreed it would be great if the DSS gave a POI map and maybe navigation markers. Currently it feels a little underwhelming at the time of use.
 
Hello Sandro, have you considered a third option of buffing the exploration scanning rewards, say to the point where an average system returns as much as a high rep mission (say 2-3 million), basically provide the same range as current res bounties do. With this increased reward, the functionality of the scanners and system map can be left in its most restrictive form. For non exploration gameplay modes, we would of course want the data instantly, adding some real weight to the current purchase cartographic data option on the galaxy map.

- Many players have reasoned that hiding the system is a negative due to the really poor exploration rewards.
- Keeping the spheres black until scan + buffing the rewards to withing range of all the other gameplay types would be the perfect outcome.
- The element of surprise for exploration to see what's there would be great.
- Adding a button to purchase cartographic data from the system map would be kind. The cost should be token, and more expressed in forfeiting a tangible reward from doing the exploration scans.
- Of course the typical depth of logic could be applied to work out what the rewards are, distance from star, type of planet, how many moons there are etc. As long as overall it matches the other modes of play.
- Possibly have it so that you can only get the full system map from scanning the nav beacon. Immersion plus.
- Of course if you get the data the the surface maps should be available.. seems like a non issue.

I think there's potential to hit a win for exploration gameplay here.. quality of life issues are superficial to be able to make the exploration gameplay type meaningful. It does take quite a long time to fly between planets... and look what you can get from delivering biowaste.

Thanks for considering.
 
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