Exploration Scans

[jgm]

This is a non-argument.

If you can use a 6A SCB, do you use a 6B or a 6C?

If you can use a 2G planetary hanger, do you use a 2H?

The only modules that get used commonly are D & A. All others are used because of the limit in cost.

So linear progression where you max out at 1.5M? If that's what people want then it's a waste of time as no-one will bother with the intermediate steps.

Oh, and 6B SCBs have higher total capacity than 6As, and 2G planetary hangars have lower mass and higher power usage than 2Hs, so yes there are valid reasons to use them.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Having different options is a bad solution unless the rewards of exploration are different for each type of scanner, or the player will be penalized for not using the adv scanner.

There would be pros and cons for each scanner.

 

[ChaosCloud]

I'm going to put my 2 cents here. I don't see any particular reason to leave the system obscure after the honk. In RL we have something called spectroscopy, which allows us to know if a body is rocky, icy or gaseous right here, from old Earth. So it makes sense to me that once you honk, you reveal the bodies and their surfaces.

About ideas to make exploration more interesting, what about using the surface scanner to check if a specific zone contains valuable resources? For instance, we sent probes to discover and study the hydrocarbon lakes on Titan... They would be larger and persistant POIs on the surface... There could also be some "special" POIs with stuff that you don't usually see on the other POIs (like ehm... mysterious things...).

Yeah that's definitely a problem. As much as the fact is that we are most of the time not discovering something but just re-discover something someone else already found and stamped his name on when he brought the data back.
Like all the low population systems in the bubble which have by now been probably scanned thousands of times yet all that brought back data has STILL not added them to the maps.
This makes exploration feel kinda pointless.

We have more systems in elite than we will ever be able to cover as far as I understood it, so why not make discoveries that are brought back persistent for everyone? (Whenever you need to go back to the bubble to get that map update is a different question now)
And to compensate for that you'd get a better payout like someone suggested earlier where you get a multiplier the further you are from Sol. That way a new player can still get a decent amount of money when he heads a longer way out and finds a system that wasn't scanned before.

1. The whole idea of just getting anywhere from anywhere easily is boring. If we would have to actually explore stuff, fighting the unknown and facing other perils, it would be more fun. So, these are the possible ways to do it:
a. Player will spend X tons a day of water, oxygen, maybe even food outside the bubble. Player can mine ice asteroids in rings to replenish water that can also be turned into oxygen. Food will probably have to wait until we can land on atmospheric planets.
b. Jumps shouldn't always just be perfect. If you plot a route, the further any next jump is from the nearest system you discovered properly, the further will precision deteriorate. Nothing as bad as jumping into stars but maybe eventual drops 200k from star or on the planet's orbit into mass lock? (easy mode)

Mhm great, even more ways to die and lose all the months of scanning work.
Maybe if you want a bigger challenge how about you leave shield and AFM behind and if that's not enough try going out without a fuelscoop? :3
Though if your goal is just to reduce the amount of players pulled out into the unknown then you'll likely succeed with this idea.

Actually, how about you prototype that idea? Pick some surface materials that will be for food and water so you have every once in a while something you need to hunt so you don't "die" and if you run out of that you'll see whenever or not you feel like blowing your ship up because you ran out of LS.
Make a little calendar entry in your phone to keep track when you'll next run out and viola, let the experiment begin.

This is something like the permadeath thing that should be optional, maybe if it really needs to be ingame then as a choice at the start with a one time opt-in or opt-out chance (depending on what your character started with).
Though for permadeath it's easier, just pick the sidewinder upon rebuy or just nuke your player data. I have the feeling not many that wanted permadeath would actually end up doing it after they got far, but whatever, I'm just a casual so what do I know.

 

[xdemetrios]

Hello Commander MyHammer!

So i guess one of the things we're asking for in this thread is: what kind of more fundametnal changes to exploration and sanning would folk be interested in seeing?

Only a few things/questions:

1) Can we please make it so when your ship jumps into a system that contains either a black hole or neutron star as the main star our thrusters throttle down to 0 aka 30km/s automatically? We're in the 3300's for goodness sake! I'm just tired of having to button mash my 0 throttle while I'm jumping around systems of this type.

2) Any talk about combining the advanced and DSS into a single module of a higher class (maybe a single class 2 module)? That would be very ideal

3) Any proposals/ talk of engineered scanners?

4) Lastly (just for fun) can we get a basic discovery scanner sniper. You aim it at a neighboring system and it can do a basic scan without requiring a jump, maybe give it a delay time similar to the dss?

 

[K-Rose]

Of the 39 systems, 9 had multiple suns with the secondary star a minimum of 4-500k ls from the sun. When I arrived in those systems and used the adv. disco scanner, I could see, at a glance, that the distant bodies were all ice balls and could skip them. If you are telling me that in the future I have to travel 15-20 minutes extra in each system to get to the secondary star, then scan every single planet and gas giant moon just to see if it is worthy of scanning, I'll flipping lose it. That is a tremendous step backwards, effectively tripling the amount of time needed to explore over today. How is that an improvement?

That's not what he's saying.

The black planets will be gone, you will still know whether it's worth going over to the other star. You just won't get the planet map you get with landable planets (new to 2.2) until you do the DSS.

Essentially it's staying the same as it is now, but if you want to use the new feature they've added & do some canyon running or look for mountains, you have to do a scan of the planet.

So for your situation of just jump scan jump, there will be no change.

 

[Edamski]

Personally I think a system scan with only the discovery scanner should only reveal the wire frame planets. A system scan performed with the discovery scanner and the surface scanner should reveal the detailed surface.

Doing this totally negates the point of the surface map as a QOL feature. If you're jumping from system to system looking for planets with interesting features then having to approach each one and scan it individually is a massive pain and adds nothing to the game.

 

[varonica]

Having different options is a bad solution unless the rewards of exploration are different for each type of scanner, or the player will be penalized for not using the adv scanner.

They are, apparently, rewarded with immersion. I spend hours and days cruising over a moons surface looking for geysers and other interesting features, there are no bad or good solutions, there are different solutions, I don't consider it a penalty spending most of my time looking for surface features while others honk and DSS new systems and planets for monetary reward. This isn't a nasty comment, it says, "penalties and rewards are different for different people." If a person is satisfied to use a lower level scanner just so that they need fly to each planet and moon to perform a DSS to find anything interesting that may be their idea of a reward, personally it would be my idea of a penalty.

If all they are doing is scanning for monetary reward then they will always take the best equipment, if they are performing an action because they enjoy it, that is taking a lower level scanner then that for them is a reward, not a penalty.

 

[K-Rose]

So linear progression where you max out at 1.5M? If that's what people want then it's a waste of time as no-one will bother with the intermediate steps.

Oh, and 6B SCBs have higher total capacity than 6As, and 2G planetary hangars have lower mass and higher power usage than 2Hs, so yes there are valid reasons to use them.

OK I chose bad examples, but still, there are many examples where the difference is a direct increase in cost & effectiveness (C to A for instance).

I've already said it, I worry that it'll make it too convoluted & complicated. But if they rename the scanners to something more appropriate and make it obvious how they work then why not.

 

[Ziljan]

Having different options is a bad solution unless the rewards of exploration are different for each type of scanner, or the player will be penalized for not using the adv scanner.

The rewards don't need to be different, because the income wouldn't be that different between the different scanner types. I've been using the dark spheres version for 32 hours in beta, and the income is almost identical, with the real difference being that I get so caught up in the beauty of planets that I would have skipped based on a system map pic, that I spend too much time oogling breathtaking hoth-like ice balls.

However, there could be other incentives for different scanner modules types such as the number or size of slots required, the type of mount (internal vs utility), weight, etc.

This would be enough to make small ships into more viable explorers again, and even open up more build possibilities on the DBE and DBS in one stroke.

 

[ASC]

A few quick thoughts.


I've spent a lot of time exploring, but little time surface scanning planets. It's just not rewarding enough - you point your ship at a planet and wait 30 seconds to get some credits and a few numbers in the system map.


Because of the time it takes, I'd like planet scanning to be more rewarding, especially if you want to remove the thumbnails from the system map until a scan has been done. I'd be okay with the 3D planet maps being revealed by a scan, but I'd also like more credits (say 5x), new gameplay, or both.


There is little reason to ever get close to a planet unless you want to look at the graphics, or, for airless worlds only, to drive around and shoot rocks. Indeed, getting closer makes it slower to pull away again. I need an incentive to get up close.


A scan with a DSS, or something new like an orbital range scan, could reveal material rich zones or POIs on the surface which could then be investigated and scanned by SRV. Perhaps this could reward you with new kinds of data, for engineers, missions, or just gaining reputation in a new way.

 

[K-Rose]

Doing this totally negates the point of the surface map as a QOL feature. If you're jumping from system to system looking for planets with interesting features then having to approach each one and scan it individually is a massive pain and adds nothing to the game.

Agreed, approaching a planet to do a surface scan should give you something like this:

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

They are, apparently, rewarded with immersion. I spend hours and days cruising over a moons surface looking for geysers and other interesting features, there are no bad or good solutions, there are different solutions, I don't consider it a penalty spending most of my time looking for surface features while others honk and DSS new systems and planets for monetary reward. This isn't a nasty comment, it says, "penalties and rewards are different for different people." If a person is satisfied to use a lower level scanner just so that they need fly to each planet and moon to perform a DSS to find anything interesting that may be their idea of a reward, personally it would be my idea of a penalty.

If all they are doing is scanning for monetary reward then they will always take the best equipment, if they are performing an action because they enjoy it, that is taking a lower level scanner then that for them is a reward, not a penalty.

Nothing to do with immersion but about choices.

 

[_trent_]

I have no problems with the system as it is now.

If honking only reveals black or generic spheres that the player would have to travel to - for several minutes each - just to find out what type of body they were it would completely destroy the role of explorer in my opinion. Exploration is not, and never has been, a financially rewarding way to play, and I accept that, but to make it tedious and longwinded as well would render it utterly pointless.

 

[Gramps]

Leave the scanners pretty much as they were (2.1) for now at least.
Sandro seems to be saying any changes will be for a future update, given how the community is split right now I say that's a wise move.
Another 'Official' poll may be in order as we had with ship transfers with each available option made clear. I don't see any urgency to make rush decisions, there are some valuable post's here and it's not just about explorers it will effect all players who have a scanner fitted as they move around the bubble. The last thing I want to see is black blobs each time I go to a new system to complete a mission, but then I'm biased as we all are. I hope the devs are changing the DSC back to showing the basic planet type you've just scanned without having to load in the slow 'System Map' each time you scan a landable planet, see I told you I'm biased.

 

[CMDR Kaet]

Hello Commanders!

For reference: currently in the beta, when entering a new system, you can use the basic discovery scanner to discover stellar bodies (up to the range of the scanner).

Discovered bodies will show in the system map as graphical representations, but in the planet map they will show as grid spheres.

You can perform a basic surface scan to learn details about the body and replace the grid sphere with a visual representation of the body’s surface.

This is what I would expect from the the scanners as they are currently in the game. For those that would like blank planets until they are surface scanned, perhaps another less expensive scanner could be introduced. Everyone wins.

 

[Derbo]

What about you stick with the three options, every scanners could have the infinite range but they could provide the different tier of sight on the map.
So let's say the basic scanner could show every bodies as a blank, intermediate could show bodies up to a point and then advanced could show all the bodies on the map.
Changing them this way could be seen as a buff for the lower end scanners but in my opinion they desperately need some.

 

[bliss]

Doing this totally negates the point of the surface map as a QOL feature. If you're jumping from system to system looking for planets with interesting features then having to approach each one and scan it individually is a massive pain and adds nothing to the game.

How so? Without a surface scanner you need to fly close to the planet to get the detailed scan. With the surface scanner you get the detailed scan at the range of the discovery scanner.

There are some great ideas in this thread, many of which would take months to develop. I feel my solution could be done quite quickly.

 

[Echoes]

I honestly believe that Obsidian ants video on the subject is a fairly good reference on this topic. However, I believe that the concept of uncovering everything in a system by simply "honking" a module is not a very intuitive method of exploration. there should be other modules which would preform tests on a body. These tests should give a credit bonus if preformed.

(Such as surface impact probes when the ship is landed)

(perhaps disposable drills which can be placed on the surface which will give a better surface composition and perhaps some micro-materials as well )

There is no point in landing on a planet currently except for looking for a place to take some screenshots. adding new things to so for exploraion on the planets surface would give a purpose to owning horizons while exploration (while also not taking away from those who don't have it)

 

[mono]

Leave the scanning side of exploration alone, it's fine as it is and from my point of view as an explorer forcing me to have to scan every body in a system to find out what it is rather than the graphical representation we have now will kill exploring for me. Exploration is time consuming enough as it is.

I'd rather such efforts were concentrated on a orrery system map.

Hello Commanders!

There have been a number of threads and posts about the status of exploration scanning in the beta, including the detailed surface scanner module. This post is just to let folk know our thinking - I'm posting it here for maximum visibility.

For reference: currently in the beta, when entering a new system, you can use the basic discovery scanner to discover stellar bodies (up to the range of the scanner).

Discovered bodies will show in the system map as graphical representations, but in the planet map they will show as grid spheres.

You can perform a basic surface scan to learn details about the body and replace the grid sphere with a visual representation of the body’s surface.

Some folk have suggested that they would prefer to have the surface of a body revealed in the planet map by the initial basic exploration scan, as that detail can inform them whether they wish to investigate the body further. This is a reasonable suggestion.

Other folk have suggested that bodies discovered by a basic scan should remain as blank spheres in the system map until they have received the attention of a detailed surface scan, as the mystery would entice further investigation. This is also a reasonable suggestion.

And yet other folk think the current system is good to go and this is also clearly reasonable.

So it’s fair to say there are some different opinion on this matter .

Whilst we can’t supply guarantees or ETAs, we just want to make clear that the current implementation does not necessarily represent the finished version of exploration scanning (or exploration in general, just the version that will go out with 2.2 The Guardians.

So please feel free to make suggestions for improvements (in this thread would be a good place to pop them) and to let us know what you think of the current implementation.

 

[TankMaster]

Since there are a variety of opinions and 2 virtually unused scanners (BDS and IDS), I would highly suggest having multiple options and replace the 2 unused scanners:

All of these would have infinite range:

1) basic scanner: shows only black spheres and stars
2) intermediate scanner: shows full color system maps, but no zoomable planets before a direct scan
3) advanced scanner: shows full color map and zoomable planet surfaces

Oh course there should also be some incentive structure for using the basic and intermediate versions, for example: cost, weight, power usage, size, slot type used (utility vs internal).

Obsidiant Ant made a video showing how each scanner level would work starting at t=4:31

https://youtu.be/iGQafi6K7v0?t=4m31s

I think this is the best option given the discussion on the other threads. It would give everyone the option to explore in the way that's most fun for them.