Exploration Scans

[VR Golgot]

Cheers for the call-out

On current mechanics:

I'd favour just supplementing the current system with the surface detail on any appropriate system scan. Reserving for close scan feels like it takes away more than it adds. And allowing enticing detail from a distance could dovetail better with potential future uses...

On future mechanics:

I'd like to see surface scanning and exploration reward pilot skill and readout interpretation. This could take the form of:

• Detailed surface scan providing various new filter views of planet, providing broad info like: heatmap / moisture / geological constituents / (persistent weather fronts)

• Ad hoc exploration of promising regions & avoidance of unprofitable/dangerous ones is now possible, and could improve data fidelity the closer you got.

• (Tagging potentially rewarding and perilous areas could also improve the value of the data, with reward raising if the profit/threat confirmed by closer scans)

• Fuzzier feedback, akin to the SRV scanner, could allow for larger POIs to be homed in on from range, if the clashing signals can be deciphered and interpreted correctly. (Tracking broken audio distress signals to their source could also be amazing if feasible)

 

[Rick Carson]

Figuring out that Honk & Run paid out better than selective scanning of high value targets killed exploration for me. Giving people a reason to leave the detailed scanner at home will increase the profitability of explorers in general.

If you can't tell whether something *might* be worth scanning until *after* you've scanned it, it will remove any modicum of skill from the selective scanners, and those people will be faced with a choice of either joining the billboarders and scanning everything, or becoming honk & runners.

 

[zarthrag]

During the kickstarter there was a desire for the ability to slingshot around planets, but this not implemented due to lack of time compression. I think there's a way to implement a slingshot mechanic using the supercruise flight model, which would enhance completionist exploring.

1. Surface scans instantly resolve within [1 Ls] (adjust to taste). This is so you can scan a planet during a high speed flyby.

2. When passing bodies at high speed, ships retain the difference between their SC speed and the normal max SC speed as permanent additional slingshot speed. Slingshot speed is deducted when determining gravitational acceleration or deceleration, so a ship would immediately accelerate upon passing a body and accelerate beyond a typical max speed.

3. Reducing throttle below 100% would remove slingshot speed, and a ship would decelerate to normal levels.

The amount of slingshot speed is based on how (skillfully) close you are able to perform a flyby without crashing into a body. Completionist explorers would be able to perform flybys of each body at ever increasing speeds greatly reducing the time to fully scan a system. Long SC trips could be made faster by building up substantial speed before setting course to distant (300,000+ Ls) stars.

This is awesome.

 

[Dewin]

With the current state of exploration, I'd like the scanners to stay how they are. There needs to be more incentive to do those detailed surface scans as-is, and this way does it without taking anything away from how exploring currently works. (You couldn't see planet maps without surface scanning before, because you couldn't see planet maps period.). Likewise, we can get an idea of what a planet looks like with current technology (I.e. a telescope), so I see no reason why that should change.

Instead, I feel exploration needs to be more rewarding in terms of game mechanics and playstyle options. I want a reason to scan every planet in a system -- even the ones 200,000ls away. I want a reason to spend a couple hours flying above or driving around the surface of a planet. I want a reason to make meaningful trade-offs in an explorer build, like carrying planetary core samples in my cargo hold to sell to a research station or hand in for an exploration mission. Likewise, the current honk-scoop-jump methodology should remain viable -- there's value both in having a general map of an area and in the in-depth details. Giving someone data that says "Here's fifty starsystems, and here are some planets you might want to investigate" is valuable. Giving someone data that says "Here's Sol. You should check out the third planet there, it has some amazing features including a very impressive canyon and a really tall mountain, and this area is rich in iron deposits" is also valuable data.

I've posted a handful of exploration suggestions in the past; none of which I'd expect to see in 2.2 given the timelines but still worthy to improve exploration in the future. A short list (that I could elaborate on if I wasn't writing this on my phone):

- While scanning a body, start outputting it's stats (the same ones that can be viewed in the system map) in the upper-right window or perhaps the scanning window itself. This could include things like mass, orbital/rotational period, and perhaps even notes of materials that are in the high end of their possible concentration (2.5%+ Arsenic? Show me "Arsenic levels: High" in the scan readout.). Optionally, favor showing the stats that are furthest from their statistical norms -- the star I just scanned is 12 solar masses and this body is 0.02AU from it? Sounds like it can make a neat screenshot at the very least.

- Add surface samples (collect while landed from 1-4 randomly selected sites on the planet using a similar mechanic to search zones). Sites for these would ideally tie into biomes -- maybe surface samples from a crater, a mountain, a plain and the polar regions. These would be one-time exploration data and turned in like existing data.

- Add core samples, which require the SRV to collect and occupy 1t of cargo space (thus making a reasonable tradeoff between jump range and in-depth exploration data). One per planet, sell for significant value at stations that'd be interested in that data (refineries may want to know where good mining spots are, high tech for R&D, etc.)

- Add exploration missions "Bring us X Surface Samples", "Bring us a core sample from (random body in a nearby unexplored system)", "We want detailed data on 5 rocky bodies".

 

[Mephane]

Hello Commander Alec Turner!

Basic scan is correct, I have just been writing variations on the phrase "perform a scan" way to much than is healthy. Apologies.

OK, it's official, I've lost my tiny mind. Sorry.

Let's just establish the term "honk" as the official name of that initial scan that reveals objects in the first place.

 

[Cosmo]

Indeed, and with how hard Geisers and other landmarks are to find, I believe the DSS should assist with this, it'll greatly help with gameplay over the realism of them being hard to find.

Even if every planet doesn't have features, if 1 in 10 gets scanned and comes up with some persistent POI's, I think it'd be really great.

They had the concept here (I'm not giving up with this gif!!)
http://i.imgur.com/MVB7jjf.gif

Yes this animation of planetary scanning to show POIs would be awesome.

POIs like geysers and ruins must be on the planet map, otherwise it takes forever to find it.

 

[Murrdox]

I think the Detailed Surface Scanner should reveal the fully zoomable terrain of the planet. Honking and/or scanning the surface of the planet with only a Discovery Scanner should produce the current result in the live game.

Frontier should consider adding more benefits to the Detailed Surface Scanner, such as marking persistant Points of Interest.

 

[Martind Forlon]

There were given opinions that have ADS scan like in 2.2B7 allow more players reveal ELWs (do exploration = go close to planets) etc and others wants detailed planet view with ADS click ... but, why there should be only ELW and few other so rewarding? Let ADS reveal planet surface map like was originally announced, but think how to heavily change the way how close range exploration (= you have planet right behind you) and going to surface (= get in touch with planet) is/will be rewarded.

It need that persistent POIs will be revealed by DSS scan and their amount/quality can be counted to 3rd scan payment = some real exploration, but this is not all,

Do a large mineral deposits as a persistent POIs
Do a special places as a persistent POIs
Do a wreck places as a persistent POIs
...
...
AND reward players for reaching these places with ship or SRV or SLF (materials, commodity, special stuff etc.). Such way you can have exploration which will be fun to do, will have some purpose (flying randomly over planets huge surfaces for reveal something is silly) and can bring many nice views and reveals for everyone.

 

[Mephane]

Sorry but just to clarify, is the exploration mechanic going to be;-

1. Class 1 scan (The Honk) : this will review the system map to the range of the scanner and every planet in range, you'll see a thumbnail of planet (not a black sphere) but drilling down on the planet will show the gird view.
2. Class 2 scan : By flying close to the planet, the discovery scanner will show basic details of the world and the grid view will be replaced by the 2.2 visual representation of the body’s surface.
3. Class 3 scan : By flying close to the planet with the additional surface scanner module will give you all of the class 2 details, the mineral breakdown and more money when you trade it in?

not had enough coffee this morning.

The only thing I would like to see changed is move the thumbnail in the system map to the class 2 scan. I always found it weird that you could just honk, open the system map and cherry-pick anything that already looks like it is guaranteed to be a water world or earth-like world. Instead, the honk should only reveal the most basic properties (mass, diameter, orbit, current location) and not even a textured view.

As a compromise, the blank sphere on the system map after the honk could be colored in the averaged color of the planet, that at least would be easy to distinguish at a distance with any sort of sensor tech (heck, the unaided human eye can tell that Mars is red and Saturn yellow).

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Indeed, and again this is the wrong way to lead the discussion - future plans and how to proceed with 2.2 are two very different things. Evidence shows, that current proposal wil p**s off the majority of players

There is no such evidence. Previous behavior wasn't seen beyond beta. That's about 2k - 3k players at best.

 

[RadActiveLobster]

Since there are a variety of opinions and 2 virtually unused scanners (BDS and IDS), I would highly suggest having multiple options and replace the 2 unused scanners:

All of these would have infinite range:

1) basic scanner: shows only black spheres and stars
2) intermediate scanner: shows full color system maps, but no zoomable planets before a direct scan
3) advanced scanner: shows full color map and zoomable planet surfaces

Oh course there should also be some incentive structure for using the basic and intermediate versions, for example: cost, weight, power usage, size, slot type used (utility vs internal).

Obsidiant Ant made a video showing how each scanner level would work starting at t=4:31

https://youtu.be/iGQafi6K7v0?t=4m31s

This gets my vote.

 

[bliss]

One simple quality of life improvement:

The detailed surface scanner cuts down scan times by 50% (or more).

 

[AcidsEcho]

I like it as it is now.

If I can't see the planets surface on the system map then I am not going to be encouraged to explore. Actually it will be the exact opposite. My play time is valuable and common planets with dull characteristics vastly outnumber planets with interesting characteristics. So rather than waste time getting close enough to every planet in a system to perform a surface scan just to get a basic idea of its general composition or topography...I will just not.

What encourages me to explore is looking at the system map and seeing interesting planets with interesting features. Add complexity and time sink to that simple process and it becomes more beneficial for me to just look up neat points of interest on the internet than try to discover things myself.

IMO system scan should give you the level of detail that you could get with a high powered telescope. A direct scan of the planet with the discovery scanner should give you the details you would get from a high orbit satellite and a detailed surface scan should be like having a surveyor on the planet.

If the idea is to make the surface scanner and information gathering more relevant, then add things for the surface scanner to find. For example: small settlements that may not register on the system map and have their own rare commodities (coffee from that little one stop light town, not big enough to even be on a map, is the best I've ever had). A surface scan could reveal major crash sites, skimmer locations, resource extraction drills, high density mineral nodes, ghost towns, abandoned cargo, signal sources, escape pods, mysterious things...

I would equip a surface scanner in a heart beat if it meant exciting discoveries. Add value to the scanner rather than adding additional resource cost (in this case time) to something we already have that there is no technical problem with.

 

[phwap]

Hello Sandro,

In my opinion there are two issues at stake with the system map:
* non-explorer users of the system map
* different explorer playstyles.

In my non-exploration focused gameplay, the system map is more an efficient means to get to a destination. Scan a nav beacon or use ADS to discover system objects. Then open system map to select the destination for mission(s) or resources.

I have only undertaken a few exploration-focused journeys. These can be separated into different playstyles:
* I take the time to enjoy the exploration process: wandering about the system surface scanning all planets and landing on a few of them.
* I focus on the credits return I can make: scan a system with the ADS, open system map and evaluate what is worthwhile to scan before moving on. I only land on planets to get materials I may need.

Much of the discussion in this thread seems to me to be concern about an explorer playstyle being penalised. If different scanners or engineering options on current scanners allowed low-bandwith high-resolution or high-bandwidth low-resolution options, both playstyles might be accommodated.

In this scenario, the scanners reward time spent in system, such that the number of systems visited multiplied by the time spent in those systems would be roughly equivalent for both approaches. This could allow players to switch the level of detail scanners provide to their chosen playstyle without perceived penalty.

In response to your second question regarding changes to exploration/discovery, would it be possible for the SRV to perform a surface sample scan that would act like the prospector limpet. Locate an outcrop, do a surface sample scan and get more or rarer materials. This would also give exploration data of varying worth.

For myself, I hope that these discussions do not constrain future gameplay design. Being able to set (or bookmark) a destination on a planet surface from co-ordinates would be very useful to me, even if the lat-long precision was low.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[bliss]

Since there are a variety of opinions and 2 virtually unused scanners (BDS and IDS), I would highly suggest having multiple options and replace the 2 unused scanners:

All of these would have infinite range:

1) basic scanner: shows only black spheres and stars
2) intermediate scanner: shows full color system maps, but no zoomable planets before a direct scan
3) advanced scanner: shows full color map and zoomable planet surfaces

Oh course there should also be some incentive structure for using the basic and intermediate versions, for example: cost, weight, power usage, size, slot type used (utility vs internal).

Obsidiant Ant made a video showing how each scanner level would work starting at t=4:31

https://youtu.be/iGQafi6K7v0?t=4m31s

I would put my vote behind this as well + the detailed surface scanner cuts down on the time to scan a planet. Give the detailed surface scanner a little bit more utility.

With my years of imaginary game development history, I would say Frontier could knock that out in a week

 

[Allin]

How about we do that:

1. ALL SCANNERS have infinite range.

- Basic one gives all data (type, surface map) up to 500ls range, type to 1000ls and black blobs further than that.
- Intermediate ones give all data up to 1000ls and type info to 100.000ls and black blobs after that.
- Advanced ones give all data in all the system

Logic: this will offer a reasonable progression to starting explorers while letting people using advanced one to get all the data right away while not removing other scanners functionality because:

2. All scanners are UTILITY ITEMS rather than modules. If you want a DETAILED SURFACE SCAN, you are buying alternative version of a scanner so you only need one item anyways - and THEN it goes into a module slot.

Logic: This would be a MASSIVE quality of life change for explorers and would lead to an interesting choice of having a cheaper scanner but with detail surface scan capability in place of an advanced scanner without it. It would also give explorers much more configuration options for their ships and choices based on playstyle - while improving module slot usages for smaller explorer ships like DBS and DBX.

Simples.

 

[Judqment8]

ADS should reveal all bodies AND the new surface map after a scan. But DSS should be required to get the full info of the body.

 

[Sparkam]

I suggest 3 classes of discovery scanner (1. basic, 2. advanced, 3. professional or industrial or military).
After honk all scanners show all visible system bodies with different level of detalisation (blurriness). Higher scanner class shows clearer picture.
All scanners can show surface map with different LOD but only part of the surface visible from your point of view during scan, i.e. invisible from your POV parts of surfaces will be covered with grid. And if you honk close to the star then you will not see bodies behind it.

I understand that POV thing would probably be costly feature, but still, would be great.

 

[Aeos]

Thanks for the info Sandro!

I really like the idea of the different scanners being able to provide different data and how that can require you do have to do more in order to fully know what is in a system. Some of the issues with implementing this system as is though is the increase to complexity of exploring without more tools or payouts.

Not being able to see bodies in the systems after a honk would mean lots more time and effort to be able to get data which was previously given for free. This is fine to do however we need to be given proper compensation for the new extra time + given new tools be be able to get the data we were able to get before. My solution to this problem?


The Long Range Body Scanner
We need a long range body scanner or something that no matter how far away the planet is we can still detect what type of planet it is. What would be even better is to make it like a telescope instead of an automatic scan (Or you could maybe upgrade it to be automated but this would be more boring). This telescope could be "lock on able" if that is a word, which would point you to the direction of the stellar body you would then have to zoom/focus as a mini-game (short, 1-5 seconds per body) to be able to see the body. That image possibly COULD update your system map too, however it would definitely let you know if that body is worth visiting or not.

Optional of course but you could even make other things required to be able to use such a telescope, maybe it wouldn't be able to let in light in supercruise since the image would be blurry you would need to dropout, and come to a complete stop, this would also make your ship vulnerable for a amount of time. Maybe it could even take into account light bleed if your ship wasn't pointed directly away from the star(s), or too close, requiring you to continue to move around a system to get good data. If you perform this action having high res images should increase the value of the exploration data even if you get no further scans.

I would kind of see this mechanic as a way of bypassing the second step of exploration (Which is usually redundant/automatic for detailed body scans anyway) but you could still get the second scan the good old fashion way (they way it is now). This means people spend less time interacting by flying in a straight direction for any amount of time, and instead maybe doing something a little more scientific with positioning in a system, zooming and focusing which feels a little more explorer centric to me. If you left out the need to drop out of supercruise, this could even give players something to do while they have to travel longer distances to some bodies they find they want to scan as they would have something to do beside just sitting there.

 

[Dipso]

How about a compromise: System scan gives a blurry representation of the planet surface, sort of what a telescope would, and a surface scan gives you all the juicy details. That way you can sort of say, hm.. that looks promising, ill go have a look, then scan it to get more details.