Exploration Scans

I saw a suggestion that the basic scanner would provide locations of all planets in the system, intermediate would show planet types, and advances would provide a surface map. That sounded pretty good to me.

Exploration probes would probably help to depolarize this issue a bit as well.
 
I second all the comments that call for DS to see all bodies and give basic info on them (Rockey, Icy Gas, atmosphere). The DSS should give POIs, Material fields and detailed surface map.
 
Exploration is 99% of how I spend my time in E:D. However, in exploration I'm always torn between taking my time and seeing the sights versus being efficient with my time. I'm not in the beta, but the feature I was most excited about was the ability to see the detailed surface of every body in the system after a honk of my exploration scanner. I don't care about fighters, and I rarely see the inside of a station... Exploration is the heart of what I find so interesting about E:D. For me, this new feature does 2 things that I want.

1. It would help me decide which bodies to visit and which to skip, as I could quickly get a sense for how interesting or uninteresting planetary surfaces were without having to invest time scooting over to them.
2. It would encourage the visitation of bodies far from the entry point, if a player could tell that they looked interesting.

Requiring a surface scan almost defeats the purpose of this new feature. For many bodies, if I'm close enough to surface scan them, I might as well scoot up and check them out in person. Why would I re-open the system map at this point, when tey view from cockpit is so much better? I really, really hope you don't go with the "all bodies are grids until they are surface scanned" option, as that could create a really frustrating experience. It's already frustrating to jump from system to system and see nothing but ice balls. Now imagine that you had to scan each ice ball to learn that it was an ice ball. This would be really obnoxious.
 
I definitely sympathize with explorers who want more gameplay and rewards from exploring. However, I feel quite strongly requiring a DSS to reveal any planetary details in the planetary map and even detailed surface maps is a bad idea. It doesn't introduce any particularly engaging and new gameplay, which is what explorers actually crave. Instead, it increases tedium and grind for non explorers as well as for some some, let's say casual or less patient, explorers. It also makes the full surface maps a bit pointless, since you are almost always close enough to see a planet by the time the DSS does its thing (and I don't think a range/speed increase resolves this problem).

The widely suggested compromise with basic, intermediate, and advanced scanners is an okay compromise I guess, but I also wonder if these suggestions are coming from veteran commanders on these forums to whom a million credits is a chump change. Nerfing the basic discovery scanner on its own is very punishing for newer players who want to jump into exploring, salvage, etc. --- unless all honk ranges are buffed to infinite across the board.

The real issuel is that it feels like the DSS is not really used for anything meaningful. In addition to planetary composition and other statistical data, the DSS should reveal planetary POIs --- ruins, geysers, settlements, mining stations etc. --- the .gif posted earlier in this thread and on the sister thread in reddit (http://i.imgur.com/MVB7jjf.gif) is an excellent example of how cool the DSS could be and honestly should be. This should be coupled by an overall increased to the types of exploration gameplay, possibly by creating things like limpet probes, missions to launch satellites around far-flung bodies, gathering soil samples from POIs, and transporting and conducting research with passenger/crew explorers and scientists.

Please, don't take away QOL features from the larger community and newer players or increase tedium, but instead work on expanding the usefulness of the DSS and make exploration a more varied and dynamic playstyle in general.
 
The planetary scanner has to have some purpose other than making a few quid. Scan the body to get the juicy info I say (oh and bump the reward when selling the data for doing so).
 
As someone recently back from Sagittarius A*, and finally free of the space madness, I'll throw my two cents in.

1) Scanners should be mounted on utility slots. I know, this sounds outlandish at first, but it's almost a prerequisite for the rest of what I want to suggest. So let's just assume this happens before we move on.

2) A new hardpoint. Small, Medium, and Large Probe Launchers. These actually go onto the ship's currently unused hardpoint slots. These modules will be responsible for launching probes to explore worlds, which is currently done by hand. So the exploration circle for discovering and scanning a world can now be done two ways. You could do it the old way, by jumping in, honking, and then flying up to the planet and waiting for your scanners to do their thing...OR you could cover more ground by launching probes to scan planets in the system for you while you scan yourself. Have the probes be created through synthesis, and have different grades of launchers allow for different data collection. This way, you can cover more ground in a given system, and be more active during exploration instead of just sitting, staring while your scanners go. Some probes could be sent to far off places, and not be able to make it back, leaving you with a task that feels more active and less tedious than scanning.

3) We're being paid for exploration data. That doesn't necessarily only mean 'data', but could also mean physical samples, as well. We also just made the DSS useless with the probes I suggested in the last note (unless they don't have dss capabilities, which would make them by and large pretty useless), so let's give the DSS something to be used for. We have an SRV, we have cargo bays, give us a tool, mounted in our ship's optional internals, to take samples of the places we can land on. Have them be worth quite a bit of credits, but take up cargo space. Samples could be worth more or less depending on the micromaterials they contain, and you could find the better micromaterials by using the DSS and scanning the planet to get a sort of heatmap of where pockets of micromaterials are. There could be two types of samples, a surface sample that takes only a moment to gather in an SRV, or a deep drilling sample where you have to land, use a ship-mounted drilling module and drill down into the planet to collect geological samples from deep within. These samples would take up cargo space, thus reducing your jump range, but will give a far better idea of what a planet or moon is like, and far more credits than a simple data scan saying 'this is what's here'. This would also give the SRV some use in exploration beyond just "Fly around and shoot rocks for mats" when exploring, because you would want to do something while it was drilling, and it would take some time. Something to the tune of say, 5 minutes, to dig in and get a good sample. With this mechanic, though, given its time restraints, in order to be worth doing, it would require some incentives. Perhaps a load of credits, say maybe 50k+bonus for rare materials/strange geology, and you'd be talking about right for the time expenditure. Explorers would want something other than just credits as well, so maybe keep a list of the first or first five commanders to come back with deep samples of each planet. With 2.2 coming, and the addition of crew, you could even have the deep drilling module need to be manned by a crew member. After all, it is a heavy-duty, planetary drilling rig.

4) So, now that we have ways to identify planets easily, engaging scanning mechanics, a new use for exploration based SRVs, and a new way to make credits and learn about the world, the only thing left to do is make things a little more engaging for people exploring out thousands and thousands of light years out in the black. Unfortunately, I don't really have a good idea that would feel right given the current environment. The closest thing I could think of would be if we were allowed, per account, to have two or three 'profiles', each of which is a different save, with its own ships and rep and save data, that we could choose to play. That is a massive change, I realize, but sometimes, you just wanna run some missions or be a fuel rat when you're 25kLY+ out, and there's no good way to do that.

Thanks for reading my ramblings, and I hope you guys like my ideas!

-CMDR Vizat
 
I don't understand what I'm being asked to express a preference on here.

Under 2.1 I can enter a system, honk my ADS, and then look in the system map and be able to take a pretty good guess at what planets are worth investigating. Is this going to change?
 
Would anyone consider Player Launched Probes? I have a thread in 2.2 beta area, and posted a link earlier in this thread.

I wasn't aware of a thread on this but early in this thread a suggested launched probes to get detail scans and POI info. Im all for outfitting a module that can build explore probes using resources. I think there are a ton of interesting things that could come from it. It adds a bit more depth and thought to mapping a system.
 
Hello FDEV!

I really hope you will allow us to view the fully detailed surface map simply by performing a system wide scan.

In my opinion, requiring a full scan is pointless because at that point I am already in close range of the planet and I will no longer need to go into the surface view to see it.

I could suggest to only allow the ADVANCED scanner to have this feature. So besides range, it could also have this added functionality.
 
Would anyone consider Player Launched Probes? I have a thread in 2.2 beta area, and posted a link earlier in this thread.

Yes! I really liked the idea of exploration probes and mentioned it a while back. It was somewhat poo poo'd as "yet another uninteresting" time sink" but I still think it would be cool. I'll have to trawl back for your link (unless you want to re-post it?).
 
Hello Commander MyHammer!

So i guess one of the things we're asking for in this thread is: what kind of more fundametnal changes to exploration and sanning would folk be interested in seeing?

Sandro, if I may suggest a basic change (short of a comprehensive exploration update) that fits with the current scanning tools and systems. Based on this being the current process:

1. Class 1 scan (The Honk) : this will review the system map to the range of the scanner and every planet in range, you'll see a thumbnail of planet (not a black sphere) but drilling down on the planet will show the gird view.
2. Class 2 scan : By flying close to the planet, the discovery scanner will show basic details of the world and the grid view will be replaced by the 2.2 visual representation of the body’s surface.
3. Class 3 scan : By flying close to the planet with the additional surface scanner module will give you all of the class 2 details, the mineral breakdown and more money when you trade it in?

The Class 1 and 2 scans work with the Basic, Intermediate, and Advanced Discovery Scanners. Class 3 scan requires the additional Detailed Surface Scanner.

Suggested Change:

Change the Detailed Surface Scanner (DSS) such that it's required distance to a scan a planet increases, based on how far the CMDR ship is from the nearest star. The idea is that the star will produce a radiation/noise field that would interfere with the DSS when your ship is near the star. So imagine within 300 Light Seconds of a star, the DSS scan range behaves exactly as it does currently. But as we increase our distance from a star from 300 Light Seconds out to say 1,000 Light Seconds, it's scanning range scales up.

So flying a bit away from a star, the DSS scanning range would increase maybe 8X to 10X for planet sized bodies, and 3X to 5X for moon sized bodies.

This would vastly reduce the super cruise criss-crossing of a system to complete the Class 3 scans, allowing those scans to be completed from a greater distance in many situations.

Result:
The Class 1 and 2 scan process would be unchanged. The "Honk" would still work the same. The basic (non-DSS) Class 2 scan would still require the current flying close to the planet to complete.

Only the Class 3 scan (using the DSS) would allow the longer ranged scans to complete from a farther distance *if* we move our ship clear of nearby stellar radiation. Doing a Class 3 scan on planets very near a sun would see little to no time savings. But those very far out planets would show a very nice time savings, once the ship is clear of stellar radiation.

The time savings from the longer range scan capability would offer an added bonus to carrying the DSS.

Icing on the Cake Suggestions:
- The distance you'd need to travel from each star to get clear of it's radiation field would vary with each star type.

- Change both the basic (Class 2) and detailed scanner (Class 3) from being able to complete a scan *through* another body. I seem to recall completing a number of scans on planets that were behind a star I was fuel scooping at, with clearly no way the DSS could "see" those planets through the star.

- Maybe the DSS scan "wait time" will also decrease a bit, as the scan distance increases?

- Expanding on the main suggestion above: Suppose I'm far enough from a star that the DSS range is increased to it's maximum. Now I target a distant planet to complete a Class 3 DSS scan, but that planet is visually quite near "in-line" with the star... Now the increased DSS range would drop back toward it's minimum due to the star's radiation glare.

Exactly like when we avoid taking a photo with the sun or a bright light directly in the background.

So the DSS gets it's range boost when both A) *physically* away from the star radiation field, and B) *visually* clear of the star radiation field.

I hope that's clearly enough written. Thanks for the post on this, and consideration of ideas!
 
As someone recently back from Sagittarius A*, and finally free of the space madness, I'll throw my two cents in.

2) A new hardpoint. Small, Medium, and Large Probe Launchers. These actually go onto the ship's currently unused hardpoint slots. These modules will be responsible for launching probes to explore worlds, which is currently done by hand. So the exploration circle for discovering and scanning a world can now be done two ways. You could do it the old way, by jumping in, honking, and then flying up to the planet and waiting for your scanners to do their thing...OR you could cover more ground by launching probes to scan planets in the system for you while you scan yourself. Have the probes be created through synthesis, and have different grades of launchers allow for different data collection. This way, you can cover more ground in a given system, and be more active during exploration instead of just sitting, staring while your scanners go. Some probes could be sent to far off places, and not be able to make it back, leaving you with a task that feels more active and less tedious than scanning.


Agreed, I mainly explore. Ive been to sag A* and farther too. Using probes and building them would be a good addition to a dedicated explorer ship. We need more interesting things then honking. Manually traveling to planets and pointing for 30 seconds is pretty terrible.
 
I prefer the discovery scanners just discovering stellar bodies and the surface scanners actually revealing a planets surface - in both, the system map and when zoomed in.

It would be nice, though, if we could still zoom into a planet that hasn't been surface scanned, yet, and still see the grid globe, perhaps with positions of known installations and stations (since such information would be publicly available).

So basically like this:

zUfWR1E.png
 
Sorry but just to clarify, is the exploration mechanic going to be;-

1. Class 1 scan (The Honk) : this will review the system map to the range of the scanner and every planet in range, you'll see a thumbnail of planet (not a black sphere) but drilling down on the planet will show the gird view.
2. Class 2 scan : By flying close to the planet, the discovery scanner will show basic details of the world and the grid view will be replaced by the 2.2 visual representation of the body’s surface.
3. Class 3 scan : By flying close to the planet with the additional surface scanner module will give you all of the class 2 details, the mineral breakdown and more money when you trade it in?

not had enough coffee this morning.

Hello Commander Phoenix_Dfire!

Yes. I wish I had written it like this. I guess I haven't had enough coffee this morning either.

I like it like this.

Not too fussed about the planetary map, just don't mess with the system map. No way I want to scan every single planet just to find an earthlike. Exploring is my favourite part of the game and if I had to do that I doubt that I'd even bother.

I haven't read the entire thread but to throw an idea into the mix...

Perhaps we can be shown additional data if the planet has already been scanned prior to our arrival.
 
Suggested plan for a future update (not 2.2, way too complicated).

...

Add a new module that replaces existing scanner modules. Call it a 'Survey Platform'. It comes in sizes 1, 2 & 3, and like the current discovery scanner requires being assigned to fire-group to use.

This module has internal slots like SRV and Fighter bays. Size 1 has 2 slots, Size 2 has 3 slots, and Size 3 has 4 slots.

Each slot can hold a piece of survey equipment. There are three types of survey equipment initially. These are:

  • Gravitic Scanner
  • Imaging Array
  • Spectrographic Analyser

Each type of survey equipment has the full range of quality from E to A with appropriate heat generation when a honk is triggered.

By default new ships come with a size 1 survey platform, that has an E quality Gravitic Scanner, and an E quality Imaging Array installed. This replaces the current Basic Discovery Scanner.

...

Gravitic Scanners, are the equivalent of today's discovery scanners.

Instead of having a maximum range, and all bodies within that range being discovered on a honk, they instead have a probability rating for each of the three current range bands (which might need re-balancing), 0 to 500ls, 500ls to 1000ls and 1000ls to infinity. Higher quality gravitic scanners have higher probabilities at each range, lower quality ones have lower probabilities. The probabilities are set so that an A quality scanner is still not absolutely certain to find everything at the shortest range every time, and an E quaility scanner still has a small chance to find bodies at the longest range. Maybe something like 90%/75%/65% for A rated, and 60%/30%/10% for E rated.

When a honk is triggered, a roll is made, for every undiscovered body in the system, against the appropriate probability value for the body's distance adjusted by it mass. Those bodies where the roll succeeds are discovered. Discovered bodies are shown on the system map graphics similar to 2.1. High body mass increases discovery chance above rating, low body mass decreases chance below rating.

Stacking multiple gravitic scanners within the same survey platform has the effect of increasing discovery probability somewhat with diminishing returns.

Unlike (I believe!) today's discovery scanners Gravitic scanners don't reveal ring type or quality.

Synthesis and engineering: probability, importance of mass.

...

Imaging Arrays, are used to reveal 2.2 style planetary maps for bodies that have them, and enhance exploration payout for all bodies (because you've got pics!)

When a honk is triggered, a certain number of discovered bodies that have not yet been imaged are imaged. The number of bodies that are imaged increases with the quality of the Imaging Array. Even low quality imaging arrays should be able to image a fair number of bodies in this mode.

When not honking, all imaging arrays whatever their quality, after a short scan interval, image bodies that are directly targeted with the survey platform, regardless of distance. Ideally in this mode the image of the body will additionally appear in the info panel when imaging is complete.

Imaged bodies show the enhanced 2.2 style planetary map on the system map where applicable.

Stacking multiple imaging arrays within the same survey platform increases the number of bodies that can be imaged with a honk.

Synthesis and Engineering: TBD.

...

Spectrographic Analysers, are the equivalent of today's detailed surface scanners. They require either an Imaging Array or a Gravitic Scanner on the same Survey Platform to operate.

When a honk is triggered, each body in the system has been discovered -- either on this honk or previously -- has a chance of being analysed, revealing the information that the detailed surface scanner provides now, plus the type of any rings and their quality. The analysis chance increases with quality but remains fairly low (probably not more the 20% base chance?)

When not honking, spectrographic analysers, after a short scan interval, perform analysis of the image and gravitic data for body directly target with the survey platform within their range. The minimum range that analysis can take place for a body is that same as the current detailed surface scanner. This increases upwards based on the quality of both the analyser and the other survey equipment in the bay (they are providing better data to analyse).

Unlike (I believe!) today's detailed surface scanners, spectrographic analysers, are required to reveal ring type and quality.

Stacking multiple spectographic analysers increases honk analysis chance and range.

Synthesis and Engineering: Range, and analysis chance on a honk.

...

General points

Even with the best equipment, you may need more than one honk to discover all the bodies in the system.
Since honks generate heat such that multiple honks in quick succession with low quality equipment might cause heat problems.
There are a number of different exploration loadouts that might be viable with size 3 Survey Platform module.
Since rings now need a spectrographic analyser (DSS equivalent) to know anything about, exploration payouts for rings should be boosted or added if they don't exist.
For maximum exploration payout for a body you now need First Discovery + Gravitic Scan + Imaging + Spectragraphic Analysis

...

TL;DR Too much RNG? Too much RNG!
 
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Things are great the way they are. As for the new stuff here's what I suggest.

Basic DS: Show objects blacked out - Scan each one reveals name and image, detailed scanning also reveals surface in surface map.
Intermediate DS: Show objects with images (not blacked out) - Scan reveals name planet and detailed scan also reveals surface map.
Advanced DS: Scan reveals everything except name and details currently unlocked via DSS.

Ranges are fine the way they are.
Don't give in to the "nerf the ADS" crowd, many people will eventually get tired of searching systems and just jonk everything anyway, especially when they're going somewhere (Sag A, Jaques, Beagle etc.)
Also, Parallax use is NOT worth searching for distant bodies (bodies over 50,000ls away). Most people just wont bother, new players just wont think there's anything else out there. Already hard enough to find Voyager, don't do it to planets too. Well, maybe Persephone, but nothing else.
 
The current 2.2 implementation seems good to me.

My second favorite option is hiding the surface map until a Detailed Surface Scan is performed.

Thanks, and keep up the good work!
 
My opinion is that a discovery scanner displays the system as it does in 2.1, you map the planets surface with a basic level 2 scan and the level 3 scan is also as it is in 2.1.
 
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