Exploration Scans
- Thread starter Sandro Sammarco
- Start date
Indeed, I was just making the point that the mechanic won't be introduced to support player created content because the devs have already said that it won't be introduced until there is gameplay content to support it. Despite there already being gameplay content that actually requires it.
End of off topic, which I was replying to.
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The only thing that's worth doing is this:
You jump into a system, honk it, and all the planets in range appear in the map. Detail is shown as wireframe.
Frontier remakes the entire awful scanning mechanic. The way it now works, is either by proximity, or if you have a DSS, you see it on the same panel where the SRV is. Accessing it pops you out to a new view from which you can swivel and telescope in on planets to scan them at any range, while heading in any direction. Also it scans faster.
This would give us something to do in supercruise and it would be interesting.
You jump into a system, honk it, and all the planets in range appear in the map. Detail is shown as wireframe.
Frontier remakes the entire awful scanning mechanic. The way it now works, is either by proximity, or if you have a DSS, you see it on the same panel where the SRV is. Accessing it pops you out to a new view from which you can swivel and telescope in on planets to scan them at any range, while heading in any direction. Also it scans faster.
This would give us something to do in supercruise and it would be interesting.
The problem is the immediate hostility to the idea that it requires more than jumping into a system and honking your horn to get a full overview of everything there is in the system, because despite the explorer profession being the least developed and lowest skill requirement of the 'core professions' we have people deriding how this will effect the 'canyon racer profession' and 'interesting screenshot taking' professions. Granted, many of the proposals, and there are some brilliant ones in this thread, would take time to implement but the central counter argument to them all seems to be that people should be able to whiz through the galaxy honking their horn and only stopping to cherry pick HVT's and anything other than this would hurt their bottom line, thus, time sink. So it doesn't matter how much development time F-Dev throw at this if that is peoples attitude.
This is the only way the feature makes any sense to bother implementing.
Very few people actually want this, judging by the volume of backlash that came from it being adopted. The whole "mystery to entice investigation" line is a load of theoretical hogwash and only applies to a small segment of diehards who don't seem to know what they actually want. I guarantee you they'd get just as sick of it as the rest of us as soon as the novelty of the "mystery" wore off.
Just put it back the way it was, sandro, it doesn't take this much thought.
There is absolutely ZERO benefit to making someone fly up to the planet however far way and have to stare at it for another 30 seconds to get the scan. Detailed Surface Scanners should be for revealing POIs and the mats you can find on the surface.
There is no reason you should be shoving time sinks down someone's throat. There are enough already.
Btw Remove the 2 minutes you have to spend to supercharge your FSD off a neutron star. You are cancelling out the distance benefit because as of right now you don't gain anything from supercharging off a neutron star. It will already take plenty of time to repair damages and refuel. If you also make it so you save absolutely no time off performing the jump because you multiplied the time it takes to make a jump by the same number used to multiply the distance you cancel out any time benefit you could gain from utilizing said system. Which is the primary and only benefit of actually using that feature.
Just stop making features that have absolutely no benefits to them but all the downsides. It isn't that hard.
There is no reason you should be shoving time sinks down someone's throat. There are enough already.
Btw Remove the 2 minutes you have to spend to supercharge your FSD off a neutron star. You are cancelling out the distance benefit because as of right now you don't gain anything from supercharging off a neutron star. It will already take plenty of time to repair damages and refuel. If you also make it so you save absolutely no time off performing the jump because you multiplied the time it takes to make a jump by the same number used to multiply the distance you cancel out any time benefit you could gain from utilizing said system. Which is the primary and only benefit of actually using that feature.
Just stop making features that have absolutely no benefits to them but all the downsides. It isn't that hard.
I've spent a fair majority of my time, since the games release, doing exploration. I enjoy doing it, but it also suffers from a lack of things to do gameplay wise. I don't believe leaving the planetary map blank after a discovery scan is the way to go. I'd prefer that the discovery scanner reveals the surface in the planetary map.
However, I would like to see the detailed surface scanner fleshed out and improved in future updates. I would like to see it become something more interactive. Right now it's probably the least interactive module in the game since it automatically activates when you're in range of your target and you simply wait for it to finish and move on. What I'd love to see, after performing the initial DSS, is to open up the planetary map view and along with it, some added DSS controls. You could have several sliders that you adjust to change some variables, which have an affect on a heat map that's projected over the planetary map. Depending on how you adjust them, it could highlight areas with more concentrations of sulfur, carbon or iron etc. Giving you a better chance of finding more of that material when you land. It could also highlight areas of current or past vulcanism, it could also highlight anomalies like potential crash sites, archeological site or other mysterious things. I wouldn't want it to give a pin point location, just a general area of where one could start looking.
I might be criticized by others due to this being similar to Eve Onlines planetary interaction, but this is also similar to how NASA, ESA and other space agencies learn more about planetary surfaces, using different kinds of spectrometers to highlight and reveal different elements. I figure if we can do it today, we can certainly do it in the 3300s. I think it could add a new dimension to exploration gameplay. The heat maps could also add to the value of ones exploration data, giving a higher payout to explorers.
However, I would like to see the detailed surface scanner fleshed out and improved in future updates. I would like to see it become something more interactive. Right now it's probably the least interactive module in the game since it automatically activates when you're in range of your target and you simply wait for it to finish and move on. What I'd love to see, after performing the initial DSS, is to open up the planetary map view and along with it, some added DSS controls. You could have several sliders that you adjust to change some variables, which have an affect on a heat map that's projected over the planetary map. Depending on how you adjust them, it could highlight areas with more concentrations of sulfur, carbon or iron etc. Giving you a better chance of finding more of that material when you land. It could also highlight areas of current or past vulcanism, it could also highlight anomalies like potential crash sites, archeological site or other mysterious things. I wouldn't want it to give a pin point location, just a general area of where one could start looking.
I might be criticized by others due to this being similar to Eve Onlines planetary interaction, but this is also similar to how NASA, ESA and other space agencies learn more about planetary surfaces, using different kinds of spectrometers to highlight and reveal different elements. I figure if we can do it today, we can certainly do it in the 3300s. I think it could add a new dimension to exploration gameplay. The heat maps could also add to the value of ones exploration data, giving a higher payout to explorers.
Yeah, likewise. I was playing for some time before I realised you could "honk" the discovery scanner.
There are several types of scan, not all immediately obvious to the beginner :
- If you have a Basic, Intermediate, or Advanced discovery scanner fitted, you'll discover any body if/when you fly close by (not sure of the radius).
- If you assign the discovery scanner to a fire-group, and trigger it; you'll discover any bodies within 500Ls (basic), 1000Ls (intermediate) or anywhere in the system (advanced)
- If you target a body and point your ship at it and are sufficiently close, you can perform a surface scan. The distance varies by body, but stars can be scanned from thousands of Ls away while small planets might require you to be within 10Ls. If you're the first to surface-scan a body, you tag it - assuming you're the first one to sell the relevant data. Also, the surface scan in 2.2 enables you to see the body's surface in the Surface Map.
- If you also have a Detailed Surface Scanner fitted, you get increased credits for every surface scan (I've seen varying figures, from +30% to +100%). It supposedly also gives you additional information about the body you wouldn't get with a discovery scanner alone (atmosphere & composition).
Long term exploration thoughts
This is not about how just scanners should work in the future, this is a vision of how exploration could be incorporated on the long run (I didn´t read through the whole thread, so if some parts are being already mentioned by others, I apologize).
First let me define what exploration IMHO in general should bring to the game (of course in parts we already have that) , or being able to deliver (not basically in the given order):
-) BE MEANINGFUL (in the sense of being not self-explanatory but enriching the gameplay through for example various EXPLORATION MISSIONS - for example prepare a planet for terraforming)
-) CREATE INCOME (yes, also explorers want to make some money out of it, even if that`s for many not the main reason)
-) FAME (at the moment limited to get a „first explored by“ tag --> new ways to get famous: find new lifeforms and name them, etc.)
-) more INTERACTIVITY (exploring in the sense of really doing something (aka Minigames, altough I dont like that term very much) to discover new worlds, solve mysteries (astro-archeology), etc. beyond pressing a single button)
-) SIGHTSEEING (enjoying the various vistas of distant worlds, we can do that already)
-) Strenghtening the SCIENTIFIC part of ED (Astrophysics, Biochemistry, Establishing Communication with Alien races & studying them, contributing to a GALAXOPEDIA (this could be a place where all discoverys are being collected and availlable to the community, etc.)
The following can be built upon the existing scanner system, it mustnt necessarily replace them, but would be an optional addition (meaning, for „quick-exploration“ we would still have the basic and advanced scanners)
To achieve all this our ships and vehicles (and suits once we get legs) need additional hard- and software which could be the following:
HARDWARE:
Exploration Console (Screen):
I think we need a dedicated exploration console (screen) on our ships. At the moment we can fire the scanners in the main ships HUD, which is very convinient but lacks of further interactivity and gameplay. The exploration data is being entered into the system map, which was mainly created, like the Galaxy map for navigation.
I would suggest we divide NAVIGATION and EXPLORATION more and get either a similar screen for exploration only or even a special console, once we can walk the ship. That doesnt mean the basic functionality of „honking“ should be removed from main HUD.
What could we do at this special screen?
-) Analyse Data & probes, once we receive it
-) Perform scientific resarch (Astrophysical, Biochemistry, Prospecting, etc.)
-) Feed results to the Galaxopedia (tbd., if there is a direct uplink or we need to deliver data first to a station)
-) Get graphical animations like magnetic field, orrery maps, geological maps, radiation levels, biological lifeforms (DNA), anomalies, thermal activities, etc.)
-) watch satellite and drone cams
-) do scientific experiments (for example creating new mats for engineers)
Etc. (maybe you would even need a whole lab in your ship not only a console)
-) set Landmarks to feed into the System map
Scanners (fix mounted)
I wont elaborate too much on the scanners themself, since this is being discussed already in length, I could well go with the already established ones for now. Altough only the advanced discovery scanner should feed into the Exploration console.
Handscanners (with legs)
Those are little devices like tricorders, which give certain amount of info once we are on the surface of a planet (medical stats? Tbd).
Exploration Satellites
Those could be brought into fix orbit of a planet to explore certain information over a longer period of time (vulcanic activities, etc.) --> useful for terraforming processes.
Camera Drones
Those could be used for military intelligence, as well as civil exploration (tbd.)
Probe Collector
Either for geological samples or biological lifeforms. (Imagine your scanner detects biological lifeforms on a planet, you land on the planet, use your srv scanner or handscanner to find the exact location, then you see a small pool of water with some new lifeforms in it, you take a sample with the probe collecter, bring that back to your ship and do further analysis, then you either sell that data to a corporation or to the Galaxopia and be able to name that species (even if its some sort of amoebia).
SOFTWARE:
-) Communication Analyzer: Receive Alien messanges and try to decipher their language, being able to communicate with the aliens. If you dont like what they say, you can still shoot them.
-) Advanced Analyses: which gives you a nice graphical info about all data from a planet
-) Scientific Experiments: (I am not a scientist, so I dont have any concrete ideas about that yet, but I am sure you can come up with lots of good ideas)
(I am sure, there are many other possibilities for exploration based „software“ onboard your ship)
Of course once you get all those possibilities you need proper GAMEPLAY around it, either through Missions or for example through contributing to something like a GALAXOPEDIA (which should be accessible ingame). For today I will close, this is just a rudimentary framework, but I hope you like the ideas so far.
This is not about how just scanners should work in the future, this is a vision of how exploration could be incorporated on the long run (I didn´t read through the whole thread, so if some parts are being already mentioned by others, I apologize).
First let me define what exploration IMHO in general should bring to the game (of course in parts we already have that) , or being able to deliver (not basically in the given order):
-) BE MEANINGFUL (in the sense of being not self-explanatory but enriching the gameplay through for example various EXPLORATION MISSIONS - for example prepare a planet for terraforming)
-) CREATE INCOME (yes, also explorers want to make some money out of it, even if that`s for many not the main reason)
-) FAME (at the moment limited to get a „first explored by“ tag --> new ways to get famous: find new lifeforms and name them, etc.)
-) more INTERACTIVITY (exploring in the sense of really doing something (aka Minigames, altough I dont like that term very much) to discover new worlds, solve mysteries (astro-archeology), etc. beyond pressing a single button)
-) SIGHTSEEING (enjoying the various vistas of distant worlds, we can do that already)
-) Strenghtening the SCIENTIFIC part of ED (Astrophysics, Biochemistry, Establishing Communication with Alien races & studying them, contributing to a GALAXOPEDIA (this could be a place where all discoverys are being collected and availlable to the community, etc.)
The following can be built upon the existing scanner system, it mustnt necessarily replace them, but would be an optional addition (meaning, for „quick-exploration“ we would still have the basic and advanced scanners)
To achieve all this our ships and vehicles (and suits once we get legs) need additional hard- and software which could be the following:
HARDWARE:
Exploration Console (Screen):
I think we need a dedicated exploration console (screen) on our ships. At the moment we can fire the scanners in the main ships HUD, which is very convinient but lacks of further interactivity and gameplay. The exploration data is being entered into the system map, which was mainly created, like the Galaxy map for navigation.
I would suggest we divide NAVIGATION and EXPLORATION more and get either a similar screen for exploration only or even a special console, once we can walk the ship. That doesnt mean the basic functionality of „honking“ should be removed from main HUD.
What could we do at this special screen?
-) Analyse Data & probes, once we receive it
-) Perform scientific resarch (Astrophysical, Biochemistry, Prospecting, etc.)
-) Feed results to the Galaxopedia (tbd., if there is a direct uplink or we need to deliver data first to a station)
-) Get graphical animations like magnetic field, orrery maps, geological maps, radiation levels, biological lifeforms (DNA), anomalies, thermal activities, etc.)
-) watch satellite and drone cams
-) do scientific experiments (for example creating new mats for engineers)
Etc. (maybe you would even need a whole lab in your ship not only a console)
-) set Landmarks to feed into the System map
Scanners (fix mounted)
I wont elaborate too much on the scanners themself, since this is being discussed already in length, I could well go with the already established ones for now. Altough only the advanced discovery scanner should feed into the Exploration console.
Handscanners (with legs)
Those are little devices like tricorders, which give certain amount of info once we are on the surface of a planet (medical stats? Tbd).
Exploration Satellites
Those could be brought into fix orbit of a planet to explore certain information over a longer period of time (vulcanic activities, etc.) --> useful for terraforming processes.
Camera Drones
Those could be used for military intelligence, as well as civil exploration (tbd.)
Probe Collector
Either for geological samples or biological lifeforms. (Imagine your scanner detects biological lifeforms on a planet, you land on the planet, use your srv scanner or handscanner to find the exact location, then you see a small pool of water with some new lifeforms in it, you take a sample with the probe collecter, bring that back to your ship and do further analysis, then you either sell that data to a corporation or to the Galaxopia and be able to name that species (even if its some sort of amoebia).
SOFTWARE:
-) Communication Analyzer: Receive Alien messanges and try to decipher their language, being able to communicate with the aliens. If you dont like what they say, you can still shoot them.
-) Advanced Analyses: which gives you a nice graphical info about all data from a planet
-) Scientific Experiments: (I am not a scientist, so I dont have any concrete ideas about that yet, but I am sure you can come up with lots of good ideas)
(I am sure, there are many other possibilities for exploration based „software“ onboard your ship)
Of course once you get all those possibilities you need proper GAMEPLAY around it, either through Missions or for example through contributing to something like a GALAXOPEDIA (which should be accessible ingame). For today I will close, this is just a rudimentary framework, but I hope you like the ideas so far.
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I think that there should be a reward and encouragement for dedicated explorers to fly to each planet in a system and scan it in detail. If you're willing to put in the time and effort you should be rewarded, and if you can't be bothered, then you miss out either financially and/or informationally.
IMO, you should have to fly up close to the planet to get a detailed surface scan, which is the fancy detailed planet map. However, this should also include new "heat maps" indicating areas of increased mineral density and crust weakness (geysers). There should be no surface mineral data unless you scan the planet up close.
I also think discovery scanners should have two ranges - a "detailed" range which works much as it does now and shows the planet thumbnails, and a "fuzzy" range that reveals the planets as blank spheres. The current ADS should keep an infinite "fuzzy" range, but have a new "detailed" range that is lower. In other words, the ADS will still reveal the entire system, but not necessarily all the details.
IMO, you should have to fly up close to the planet to get a detailed surface scan, which is the fancy detailed planet map. However, this should also include new "heat maps" indicating areas of increased mineral density and crust weakness (geysers). There should be no surface mineral data unless you scan the planet up close.
I also think discovery scanners should have two ranges - a "detailed" range which works much as it does now and shows the planet thumbnails, and a "fuzzy" range that reveals the planets as blank spheres. The current ADS should keep an infinite "fuzzy" range, but have a new "detailed" range that is lower. In other words, the ADS will still reveal the entire system, but not necessarily all the details.
The blank black spheres will ruin exploration. As someone who is only Ranger but who has legitimately spent 90 of the past two years of gaming as an explorer, the idea of being met with empty black spheres and the UNBELIEVABLE grind they represent makes me want to never, ever leave the bubble again.
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Suggestions:
1) fundamental information about stellar bodies (stellar class and name only) in all systems, being visible in the galaxy map, should be known, with other information being gleaned via discovery- and basic-scan or higher
2a) low-resolution version of surface map revealed by discovery-scan
alternately,
2b) discovery-scan reveals only the side of the planet facing the commander, leaving the other half a blank grid that needs basic-scan or higher to reveal
(or even a combination of the two)
3) detail scan reveals list of materials and adds points-of-interest indicators to surface map
1) fundamental information about stellar bodies (stellar class and name only) in all systems, being visible in the galaxy map, should be known, with other information being gleaned via discovery- and basic-scan or higher
2a) low-resolution version of surface map revealed by discovery-scan
alternately,
2b) discovery-scan reveals only the side of the planet facing the commander, leaving the other half a blank grid that needs basic-scan or higher to reveal
(or even a combination of the two)
3) detail scan reveals list of materials and adds points-of-interest indicators to surface map
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Thanks Sandro. I think whichever option adds the most DEPTH should be considered, not what makes it easier or difficult. It should above all else feel rewarding.
The idea of different scanners having different roles best tackles it in a way that is good for everyone, but doesn't specifically add any gameplay, it just creates more complicated options.
Personally I think having one solution is best. What I think is the scanner reveal the system map as it does in 2.1, then revealing the surface map upon a detailed scan is the way to go, BUT with the following amendments.
1) The scan range of bodies is increased by 5-10X, meaning you can scan small landable rocky bodies at well over 350 LS.
2) The payout for bodies increases exponentially depending on how many LY you are from Sol. Meaning that noobies can't go round scanning rockies for millions. But those explorers out on their own know that it's worth scanning a rocky body as they'll get good money for it.
Just my 2 cents, feel free to ignore
+1 to this
You really want the WOW to come as you fly up to a planet. Seeing a planet in the system map after holding the scan button for 5s is not rewarding. Blank spheres in the system map are the way to go for the mystery and reward of exploration.
However for gameplay there needs to be a system that clues you in on potential high earners. My suggestion is spectroscopy.
After scanning a system the system map would show stars & their habitable (goldilocks) zone. Planets would be blank spheres but with a temperature, mass and spectroscopic readout next to each one in range. This would show if a planet had various chemical markers such as oxygen, water and iron for an earthlike.
I'd change up the scanning ranges (These ranges are based somewhat off existing system but open for change)
Each new system would always have some mystery to it. Players would actually experience discovering each planet as they would have only a small clue as to what to expect as they approached a planet. But at the same time players won't be grinding every system in the hopes of finding high earners.
Limiting the spectroanalysis range gives the player a choice with some risk. You know a planet is there but you have to fly a distance towards (but not all the way) it before you can "re-honk" and get some clues to it's chemistry, so do you do it?
This is why all stars would show up with an indication of their habitable zones. With your ADS you can see a planet hundreds of LS away in the habitable zone of the distant binary star. Do you risk the time and journey, maybe you would if another CMDR has already claimed the nearby planets.
Engineers could improve scanners' ranges and a powerplay faction could have a better ADS, thus adding to existing gameplay mechanics.
However for gameplay there needs to be a system that clues you in on potential high earners. My suggestion is spectroscopy.
After scanning a system the system map would show stars & their habitable (goldilocks) zone. Planets would be blank spheres but with a temperature, mass and spectroscopic readout next to each one in range. This would show if a planet had various chemical markers such as oxygen, water and iron for an earthlike.
I'd change up the scanning ranges (These ranges are based somewhat off existing system but open for change)
- Basic Scanner would detect gravitational masses up to 5,000 LS but only spectroanalysis upto 500 LS
- Intermediate would detect gravitational masses out to 1,000,000LS and spectroanalysis upto 10,000 LS
- Advanced would detect all gravitational masses but have a limited range on spectroanalysis maybe in the area of 5,000,000 LS
Each new system would always have some mystery to it. Players would actually experience discovering each planet as they would have only a small clue as to what to expect as they approached a planet. But at the same time players won't be grinding every system in the hopes of finding high earners.
Limiting the spectroanalysis range gives the player a choice with some risk. You know a planet is there but you have to fly a distance towards (but not all the way) it before you can "re-honk" and get some clues to it's chemistry, so do you do it?
This is why all stars would show up with an indication of their habitable zones. With your ADS you can see a planet hundreds of LS away in the habitable zone of the distant binary star. Do you risk the time and journey, maybe you would if another CMDR has already claimed the nearby planets.
Engineers could improve scanners' ranges and a powerplay faction could have a better ADS, thus adding to existing gameplay mechanics.
My thoughts: any change to the current exploration paradigm needs to be consistent with what we already have. It makes no sense that, after 2 years of exploring the galaxy, my discovery scanner gets a firmware patch that cripples the existing functionality. If any changes can't be implemented without retconning then it isn't worth implementing.
This, of course, is a problem in general when releasing a game as a constant 'work in progress'. When 2.2 is released on Tuesday all of a sudden stations across the galaxy will be getting a simultaneous face lift. My precious glass orb of immersion will be shattering to pieces when my Commander loads into the post 2.2 universe
On a more serious note: I really wish that the current implementation of exploration scans in the Beta had been the default since day one but I'm worried that many players who are accustomed to the 'old' way of exploring will no longer find exploration in Elite: Dangerous to be compelling game play.
This, of course, is a problem in general when releasing a game as a constant 'work in progress'. When 2.2 is released on Tuesday all of a sudden stations across the galaxy will be getting a simultaneous face lift. My precious glass orb of immersion will be shattering to pieces when my Commander loads into the post 2.2 universe
On a more serious note: I really wish that the current implementation of exploration scans in the Beta had been the default since day one but I'm worried that many players who are accustomed to the 'old' way of exploring will no longer find exploration in Elite: Dangerous to be compelling game play.
Thanks Sandro. I think whichever option adds the most DEPTH should be considered, not what makes it easier or difficult. It should above all else feel rewarding.
The idea of different scanners having different roles best tackles it in a way that is good for everyone, but doesn't specifically add any gameplay, it just creates more complicated options.
Personally I think having one solution is best. What I think is the scanner reveal the system map as it does in 2.1, then revealing the surface map upon a detailed scan is the way to go, BUT with the following amendments.
1) The scan range of bodies is increased by 5-10X, meaning you can scan small landable rocky bodies at well over 350 LS.
2) The payout for bodies increases exponentially depending on how many LY you are from Sol. Meaning that noobies can't go round scanning rockies for millions. But those explorers out on their own know that it's worth scanning a rocky body as they'll get good money for it.
Just my 2 cents, feel free to ignore
I agree +1
I would like the Basic/Intermediate/Advanced Discovery Scanners to let us see the detailed surface map to allow us to pick and choose which planets we'd like to spend the time getting close to.
If there's planets a few thousand or more Light Seconds out, I'd like to know whether they have awesome canyon systems or soaring mountain ranges to climb before spending 20 minutes getting to them only to have them be the same featureless balls of crap we've all come to know and love.
If there's planets a few thousand or more Light Seconds out, I'd like to know whether they have awesome canyon systems or soaring mountain ranges to climb before spending 20 minutes getting to them only to have them be the same featureless balls of crap we've all come to know and love.
Those poll questions was not a straight up and down vote, how many of the people that voted yes based that on it being optional and were not intending to use that option. The exact wording of a poll question is just as important as the result.
Sandro I suggest you run a poll yourself with the right question if you want serious data to base your decisions on. For the most part the community lacks the objectivity to write these questions themselves. That’s just human nature and is not intended to be a criticism.
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