The ED Open Live Stream

[jimbeau1571]

I don't think making the devs salty and upset is a good idea. How will that help create a more enjoyable game for all of us to play?

It will help because they realise what we are playing day in day out, which is quite plain and evident to see that they at this moment are clearly not doing in the same limited Cr, limited choice of ship, limited choice of wingmates way.

Something of a     and wake up moment for them this. Good luck in the trade one. Try it at a CG with a trading Anni devs, lets see how you like those apples.

 

[Cosmos]

And why was there no Crime and punishment system in this beta? Anything is better that what we have at the moment...

Well there is, they introduced the Viper repsonse a while back and the station firepower has also been increased recently. That said I think its fair to say its presently not satisfactory but implementing something decent is gonna take a lot of thought, design and consideration particuarly if Frontier don't want to be seen to be caving in to the usual minority.

However, if we imagine a decent crime/karma system etc is implemented, will we then be able to remove solo/pg from the game?

It will help because they realise what we are playing day in day out, which is quite plain and evident to see that they at this moment are clearly not doing in the same limited Cr, limited choice of ship, limited choice of wingmates way.

Something of a and wake up moment for them this. Good luck in the trade one. Try it at a CG with a trading Anni devs, lets see how you like those apples.

Well firstly I'd like to say I appreciate the effort to give Open some love on stream from the devs I think Frontier can do a few things in future if they want to proceed:

• Accept that every time they do this the same people will try to hijack the event. Its their raison d'etre.
• Create some rules for what they are doing, whats acceptable and not. Having made the rules clear, no one has to take part if they don't want, then apply some sanction to accounts if people are being ats.
• Remove the most egregious problematic players from the game, permanently. That strikes of a dangerous precedent for a game where we are meant to have infinite freedom but for official streams different rules right?

What is obvious though is that certain actions are not being dealt with which clearly are intented as 'griefing'. Eagling, ramming, pad blocking around and in stations and generally going against the spirit of the game. I'm very much pro PvP and emergent gameplay but this stuff is just at behaviour and really can't be justified imo. We all know who the worst offenders are.

Ultimately some people just don't know where to draw the line and at some point given DBs views on 'griefing' it will likely force FDs hand.

In wow you can still interact with the entire player base without risking being killed if your on a PVE server. In ED you can't do that, you either play in open or play alone in solo, or play with a few in private.

It affects the social side of the game.

That's why hardly anyone talks to each other in open.

Not really.. The game is mostly a singleplayer experience (if we just consider the actual game and not other outside platforms) and tools for communicating and organising in game are either weak beyond belief or non existant. Anything social is organised outside the game, on TS, discord, reddit, etc..

 

[Tataboj]

I really liked the solution someone suggested a while ago. If someone kills another CMDR, the Pilots Federation will broadcast his position to other CMDRs.

 

[Soon(TM)]

I really liked the solution someone suggested a while ago. If someone kills another CMDR, the Pilots Federation will broadcast his position to other CMDRs.

That would just encourage a trap, you go looking for the commander in question only to find out he has six other friends waiting for you when you arrive.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

• Accept that every time they do this the same people will try to hijack the event. Its their raison d'etre.
• Create some rules for what they are doing, whats acceptable and not. Having made the rules clear, no one has to take part if they don't want, then apply some sanction to accounts if people are being ats.
• Remove the most egregious problematic players from the game, permanently. That strikes of a dangerous precedent for a game where we are meant to have infinite freedom but for official streams different rules right?

You can't impose rules in open play like that. You either add a galaxy wide mechanic that fixes the issue or live with it.

Imposing rules and sanctions on players in open for live stream events just makes a mockery of the "blaze your own trail" motto.

FD just have to accept that they made a mistake with engineers and not balancing the in game police force at the same time.

So when they do their next open stream, they will see again what it is like to be pawned over and over by PVP players.

I really hope they try to take part in a trade CG and they get owned multiple times, maybe the they will do something and open can become viable for everyone again.

The irony is, they denied an offline solo mode because they said ED was a MMO and wouldn't work offline. Then they break the games mechanics and force a load of players into solo play and private.

Lol @ that!

 

[Crimson Kaim]

I for one am very glad the ED team played in open and experienced what it's like to face the maxed out PVP groups.

Now maybe they understand why many play private and solo, especially when doing Community Goals.

Next, i would like them to do another open stream, with real accounts, with only 20 million credits max, and then attempt to do a real Community Goal in open.

Then they can experience the pain of a REAL rebuy.

Hopefully this will finally show them what they have done to open play with engineers and its upgrades.

As a PvPer, I agree. Frontier finally has to play their own game at all with all its content. A proper crime and punishment system for everyone. So cheap I can dock with a 1m cr bounty at a station I am hostile with.
And then, I hop into a suicidewinder and clear my bounty.

I'd like to see Braben and Sandro playing their own game a little more.

 

[smiths121]

Some ludicrous responses t the OP. As for try it again in a Viper, brain dead comment of the year in my book. If they are easily being killed in a Python, Viper probably not going to help much not an entertaining stream, a lesson in engineers, or well anything.

As for the OP, try it again with 20MCr limit - whilst advertising your position, having to repeat your actions because the stream is an hour - rather than do something else if it is not working for you - another punish the devs, cos when I was crap at the game someone killed me comment.

The vast majority of open is nothing like this, I know I have spent over 2 years here. I have never taken a Viper into a CG - but then I have 2 brain cells to rub together, if a Haz Res site is too ,uch then daah for doing that in open. Again with the CZs, I once took a D rated Type-6 to a CZ (about 18 months ago), died about 210 times but had fun and made friends and money - which is why I did it. I would actually have done it for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Some people seem to want to punish the devs in public - this seems pathetic to me.

On a related and perhaps more important note, these streams will do nothing to encourage players back into Open. Given the narrative by both players and Ed, during the stream, if that was the intent, I think it will fail.

Simon

 

[Soon(TM)]

Some ludicrous responses t the OP. As for try it again in a Viper, brain dead comment of the year in my book. If they are easily being killed in a Python, Viper probably not going to help much not an entertaining stream, a lesson in engineers, or well anything.

As for the OP, try it again with 20MCr limit - whilst advertising your position, having to repeat your actions because the stream is an hour - rather than do something else if it is not working for you - another punish the devs, cos when I was crap at the game someone killed me comment.

The vast majority of open is nothing like this, I know I have spent over 2 years here. I have never taken a Viper into a CG - but then I have 2 brain cells to rub together, if a Haz Res site is too ,uch then daah for doing that in open. Again with the CZs, I once took a D rated Type-6 to a CZ (about 18 months ago), died about 210 times but had fun and made friends and money - which is why I did it. I would actually have done it for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Some people seem to want to punish the devs in public - this seems pathetic to me.

On a related and perhaps more important note, these streams will do nothing to encourage players back into Open. Given the narrative by both players and Ed, during the stream, if that was the intent, I think it will fail.

Simon

You fail to see the point.

ED is supposed to be a MMO with social activities, the CGs were made to bring the community together but yet many don't do them in open for reasons that became apparent in the live stream. When everyone knows where your going to be then you can expect trouble. Trouble that has no consequence, no punishment, no real police response.

You say if people don't like it then play a different game mode, how is that any different from combat logging, since your still doing everything with nobody being able to touch you.

I think you need to re evaluate your stance from defensive to neutral and look at the bigger picture here.

Even the PVP players would want some sort of crime punishment system introduced to help keep people in open.

Afterall how can you pirate If there's nobody to pirate?

And how is taking a type 6 to a CG and dying 210 times a good thing?

It's ok for you if you have millions of credits, but remember when you first started , what if that has happened to you back then?

You would have quit or gone into solo mode, proving open isnt for beginners or those with low credit balances.

 

[Lobstris]

Some people seem to want to punish the devs in public - this seems pathetic to me.

I don't think 'punish' is the right word. More just show the what players have known for a long time -
that the crime system needs a complete overhaul, with some form of karma attached to a player, rather than just the ship.

On a related and perhaps more important note, these streams will do nothing to encourage players back into Open. Given the narrative by both players and Ed, during the stream, if that was the intent, I think it will fail.

I agree with you there. Such streams are more likely to convince that Elite is a broken game, which would be a shame, 'cus outside of player bottlenecks 99% of open is effectively the same experience as solo... ...oh hang on, some people may find that statement disappointing too.

 

[Soon(TM)]

I don't think 'punish' is the right word. More just show the what players have known for a long time -
that the crime system needs a complete overhaul, with some form of karma attached to a player, rather than just the ship.



I agree with you there. Such streams are more likely to convince that Elite is a broken game, which would be a shame, 'cus outside of player bottlenecks 99% of open is effectively the same experience as solo... ...oh hang on, some people may find that statement disappointing too.

Well, even the devs got a shock or two last night.

Check the live stream at 49:24 , Adams face when the capital ship just "Pops in" is priceless.

 

[bitstorm]

Some ludicrous responses t the OP. As for try it again in a Viper, brain dead comment of the year in my book. If they are easily being killed in a Python, Viper probably not going to help much not an entertaining stream, a lesson in engineers, or well anything.

Erm you misunderstand.

Make the event Viper (small ship) only, this applies to every CMDR joining in not just the two Frontier staff, you ask people not to turn up in anything bigger.

You encourage people to fight and kill each other in open with smaller ships where the rebuy is nothing.

 

[Andovar]

Hopefully Ed decides to pull Sandy into the next open event.
Then we might get an ETA and even a guarantee on a crime and punishment overhaul!

 

[Soon(TM)]

Erm you misunderstand.

Make the event Viper (small ship) only, this applies to every CMDR joining in not just the two Frontier staff, you ask people not to turn up in anything bigger.

You encourage people to fight and kill each other in open with smaller ships where the rebuy is nothing.

That won't happen in open, the SDC would turn up in corvettes and kill everyone

 

[bitstorm]

That won't happen in open, the SDC would turn up in corvettes and kill everyone

Well, one, you don't know that's the case with Ed specifically asking people not to.

And two, in the event it does, folks rebuy will be nothing which encourages participation.

But by saying any ship, and turning up yourself in an FdL and Python you encourage a FFA.

In all honesty I think the people that are more likely to turn up to play "against the spirit of the event" are folk wanting to make a point, like our friend on the previous page.

"such an event might show them some issues with their current game."

 

[smiths121]

You fail to see the point.

ED is supposed to be a MMO with social activities, the CGs were made to bring the community together but yet many don't do them in open for reasons that became apparent in the live stream. When everyone knows where your going to be then you can expect trouble. Trouble that has no consequence, no punishment, no real police response.

You say if people don't like it then play a different game mode, how is that any different from combat logging, since your still doing everything with nobody being able to touch you.

I think you need to re evaluate your stance from defensive to neutral and look at the bigger picture here.

Even the PVP players would want some sort of crime punishment system introduced to help keep people in open.

Afterall how can you pirate If there's nobody to pirate?

And how is taking a type 6 to a CG and dying 210 times a good thing?

It's ok for you if you have millions of credits, but remember when you first started , what if that has happened to you back then?

You would have quit or gone into solo mode, proving open is broken.

There was a similar thread about Engineer mods being over powered, at last FD will see it, about these threads. I was not so annoyedin that thread, as the "I am a victim" - look, look so are you comments did not exist. There was just a sensible debate about balance of engineer weapons.

Do not get my wrong, I think the CG comparison is very valid as they are certainly not "community", and you were absolutely the first to point this out in this thread. Some posters, however, are just throwing toys out the pram, and I fear any talk of balancing would descend into "PvE only mode", or "if someone kills me it should costs then 10 Billion Credits and no rebuy" that normally happens. Some of the posts have all the making of that sort of thing.

I have a slightly worst (or actually positive) prediction, that after 2-3 these streams will stop. The same, handful of Commanders will be there and no one else, killing the Devs , and Frontier will quietly stop the streams. I really enjoyed the last stream, but if that prophecy turns out to be true - best thing that can happen.

On another note - I asked "how you can pirate if there is nothing to pirate?" back before Alpha predicting there would be no traders in open (it was called something else back then "all ....something"), as why would you be there? So I completely agree that the PvP trader->pirate->bounty hunter arc - perhaps the fundamental of "Elite" since 84, is screwed up at the moment, it was more fun first 6 months with super power wide bounties. Original way to fix this was to force anyone with a bounty into Open, then "single player-gate" came. No idea how to fix it now, to be honest, with the need for everything to resolved through PvP.

On another note, I reset a month before Lough and invested all my money in a D-rated (there were some Es actually) Type-6 to go to Khaka to do Gun Running for the Feds against the separatists. That was organised separatist and the "then quite powerful" Empire Grace in combat ships to to out run. Fun week of my life, could not do PvP again for 6 months! So yes I really do know what it is like,and crucially what it feels like to be a starter in a CG with every other player in the instance out to get you. Just curious what is your experience that taught you to be careful in open with a new player's ship?

Simon

 

[lifeschool-amiga]

I totally agree about the issues with Open.

It only takes 1 pilot out of 100 to be a jerk, and you get blown up. Many of my deaths in Open have been from crashing into someone blocking the mail slot, or messing around, and that sort of cash loss from idiots means a whole week of grind is lost in seconds. I have class 5 rated engineers shields and boosters, but I last exactly 2 minutes inside a combat zone against NPCs, so against any real player would be suicide.

I think the fines for 'Murder and Destruction of Multi-Million Credit Property' are just a joke. I lose 15M CR and my attacker gains a 1000cr bounty. That should be the OTHER WAY AROUND! I have my ship insured, so I should only have to pay a token cost (1000 CR, but the premium should go up a bit), and my attacker should get a bounty of 15M; the total assets of the property being destroyed. So if they blow up a sidey they get a few thousand bounty, but if they blow up my Corvette, I should be able to fly back to them in Open, and shoot them down to reclaim MY 15M CR loss, and get the money back! If the attackers kills 10 ships, they should have a bounty which reflects that, and become wanted throughout the whole galaxy, with the total combined value of their destructions, e.g 100M cr. This way, players will think twice before attacking other players.

edit: in the old days, they would kill someone and hang a person for doing something small, like stealing cattle - life was cheap. Now life is expensive, the punishment for murder is life - in prison - if they kill 1 person or 1000.

 

[Conflictus]

I agree, you could see towards the end they were beginning to feel the sour taste of Engineers weapons on their tongues.

What made me laugh was ED Lewis at the end saying there would be a trade open live stream but they would set "Rules" that only certain ships would be allowed and that they would recruit some players to act as police.

As if anyone from SDC will even agree to ANY rules in open.

It's just going to be a other gank fest as soon as they learn what system they're doing it in.

And who is going to police: the diamond frogs, lab rats, fuel rats, Hutton truckers?

They ain't really PVP groups, and the PvP groups won't want to be "Police"

Good luck with that one FD!

I personally think you are just a really bad pilot who makes excuses for pretty much everything.... again I would like my fries Soon (TM)

 

[Kubicide]

Glad this topic got into the main forum. It was an eye opener and everyone should watch the devs reaction to player interaction in the game they have made. Here's my recent post and feedback from the original stream thread:



Wasn't that great? And all the excuses being thrown out on them 'taking all this heat' as to somehow imply this does not happen or could not happen in open. LOL. They were in open; this is what can and does happen in open. Around the 1:00 hr mark things hit the highpoint:

"I'm dying but I'm enjoying it. It's interaction with players. This is fun..." - no you're not enjoying it! Look at the expressions; no one there is enjoying the 'player interactions' at all!
"I'm lucky I can afford to ... mumble mumble" - yeah, loading 8 billion credits helps take the edge off from losing. Play with only enough for 2 or 3 rebuys next time.
"I'm not normally in open play; I don't get this sort of thing." - shameful developing a game mode without trying and understanding the gameplay and effects.
"It's a Diamondback! <mild expletive>" - kicking your Python. Welcome to your wonderful engineering update and game imbalance.
"Next time can we make our ships (dev ships) invincible?" - why? Things seem unbalanced? Welcome to the game you made.
"Surely they should be shot to death by the station?" - no, the station doesn't always help even with the new changes.

And then a player Clipper with only 20% hull (no shields) goes on to take out a dev's much healthier FdL ship. Priceless. The other dev respawns lasting a minute or so before getting stomped once again before saying:

"I think everybody's had enough." - yeah, 45 minutes or less of PvP interaction; stressful no fun gameplay; and you already want to quit. Great PvP game, huh? Remember who built it.

Sad part is there's nothing new in this video in the context of any unknown issues or gameplay experiences. And there was nothing unfair or unique happening to them just because they were devs; players hanging out at stations or CGs griefing does and can happen - even though I wouldn't say any griefing occurred here. The whole gameplay experience was very normal with tough to win interdictions and quick deaths (thanks to overpowered engineering mods). All of the things they didn't like or commented on negatively have been reported in the forums repeatedly for a long time. They clearly haven't been listening or reading the community feedback based on the reactions shown in this video.


What we learned about open from this stream for average skilled players:

- you need to have billions of credits so you can interact with other players
- you need to be in a wing to survive any decent amount of time, period.
- prepare to burn through ~1 million credits per minute for rebuys
- prepare for countless hours of grind to buildup/restock cash reserves for minutes of 'player interaction' time
- having billions of credits and top ships still won't make the game fun


If there's any question as to why this game is so unbalanced then this video should help give the answer which is simply that the developers do not play their game. They had no first hand experience to how things are working in this mode. It's mind boggling but it's clear this was a new experience for at least these two devs.

Let's hope this 1 hour experience actually sinks in and we see some decent changes made to the game balance. Without changes open will never be anything more than it is today which is typically a ghost town. Many players do not want the experience the dev's just had. FDev: you're game isn't fun for many people. Do you understand this now?

 

[smiths121]

Actually I thought the post your responded to made some excellent points.

I repp'd you cos yours was funnier!

Simon

 

[bitstorm]

If there's any question as to why this game is so unbalanced then this video should help give the answer which is simply that the developers do not play their game. They had no first hand experience to how things are working in this mode. It's mind boggling but it's clear this was a new experience for at least these two devs.

Fer Christs's sake.

They are not devs, they were two community managers and a server guy. (well actually Dav might be a dev, but not in the context you mean)

The people you are claiming should be experts on PvP game balance have absolutely no involvement with PvP game balance.

You may (or may not) have a point, but the point you're using to "prove" it is tosh.

 

[Kubicide]

Instead making another thread could be used some from already existing for spit on Engineers , which are ofc not the real reason why they died so effectively . Real reason was lack of experience and use of big "costly" ships in environment (open) which needs experience and preparation if player want survive there (on public places ...). Next reason for fail was, that they openly announcement theirs future plans so attackers had it very easy ... real open player is able adjust his plans (while he still stay in open) using situational awareness and this simply was not possible in given stream. It was great experience imo (for FDEvs), but myself see benefits much different as is given in OP.

Sorry but no, that's not accurate at all. There's no excuse to give for what happened - they experienced what can and does happen in normal (open) gameplay.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Fer Christs's sake.

They are not devs, they were two community managers and a server guy. (well actually Dav might be a dev, but not in the context you mean)

The people you are claiming should be experts on game balance have absolutely no involvement with game balance.

LOL, okay, how about this: "people that are directly responsible for or are involved with the development of this game". It's a little longer than saying "dev" though...