Engineers "Hull boost" - explain?

StiTch

StiTch
So folks, it's that time of week I ask a simple question and hope for a simple answer.

2.1 armour mods make reference to "hull boost" stats, independent to the hull reinforcement that handle a percentage of the hull HP, and is described as a global boost to the hull integrity.

Anyone knows what on Earth that is meant to be describing? Inara puts it in mods as a percentage, though I've rolled it as part of a secondary effect and could swear it was being presented as a flat integer increase. I'd like to think this has something to do with penetration/module protection, particularly if canopy integrity is improved, but I haven't had the chance to play too much and could be as simple as adding a measly few HP to the hull.

Answers on a postcard.
 
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goemon

goemon
my impression (of using this mod both on HRP as on hulls): it is a straight increase of hull hitpoints. e.g. a HRP gives you 220 additional hitpoints, a 30% increase will give you ~290.

now, if somebody could do the math, whether lightweight armour on military grade bulkheads is better than heavy duty mod on reinforced bulkheads in terms of hull-hitpoints/mass, i would be very interested about that...
 

StiTch

StiTch
But surely that's what the hull reinforcement stat is for?

Mods such as lightweight armour, which changes stats against your base hull HP including paid for bulkhead increases (though can be applied to lightweight bulkheads), have two hull stats it rolls against - hull reinforcement, which decreases, and hull "boost", which increases. If they both did the same thing I can't see a viable reason for hull boost existing, unless they literally need something they can use for non-percentage based increases-which would frankly be poor form.

EDIT: My bad, was looking at HRP mods, not armour. This would explain a lot, including reasoning for me to have more coffee.

So looks like the HRP lightweight mods decrease mass and the hull boost the HRP gives against its natural reinforcement value, and introduce a positive offset against the base ship hull HP. If it's me thinking straight that's surely madness? In the majority of cases if you have a decent hull HP the lightweight HRP would probably still overall give you a HP boost, and for many ships means the best way to get the most HP would be to run lightweight over heavy duty?
 
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zimms

zimms
Don't forget the Heavy Duty also gives you additional resistances. But yeah, looks like ships with great armor could use lightweight HRP mods. Still not 100% sure about it.
 

goemon

goemon
LameoveR said:
i was dissapointed that there is no mass buff for lightweight bulkheads in lightweight armor upgrade :(
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it is.

only one of those multipliers is zero ;-)

on the other hand, you can put heavy duty armour on lightweight bulkheads without any mass gain, and still 140% hullboost and resistances...
 

StiTch

StiTch
zimms said:
Don't forget the Heavy Duty also gives you additional resistances. But yeah, looks like ships with great armor could use lightweight HRP mods. Still not 100% sure about it.
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Well let's be sure about this ;)

Assuming everything I have said is correct and I haven't missed anything, using grade 5 upgrades and looking at the extreme values (because let's face it that's what we're rolling towards) without the unpredictability of secondary effects...

Anaconda with MG bulkheads, using a 4D HRP. A 4D HRP adds 330 HP on top of its minor resistance values.

Heavy Duty HRP Mod at extremes would add:
+6.24T mass
+201 HRP hp
+14.63 across all resistances

Lightweight HRP would provide:
-2.4T mass
-82 HP from the HRP itself
+331 HP


So the heavy duty HRP mod has added 201 hull HP, and the lightweight mod added a total of 249 HP.

Now, this is a rough concept example. It ignores the resistance boost and assumes perfect extremes. If your ship has less base hull HP then it will drag the situation in favour of the heavy duty mod, but if you're using less than a C4 HRP it leans in favour of the lighweight HRP mod.

Given resistances have diminishing returns that render additional resistances effectively useless past a certain point, it's entirely feasible that on a larger ship using multiple HRPs you'll get the strongest survivability by using heavy duty mods on some of the HRPs to add resistances (the lower class ones if you are worried about mass, the higher class ones if you want the strongest tanking possible), and using lightweight HRP mods on the remainder to gain the strongest HP boost you can.

It's far too involved for many to worry about, but the food for thought is there if you're an optimisation person and know more figures around diminishing returns on resistances - and if not, is simply a nod to the fact the lightweight option is potentially giving higher survivability than a heavy duty option.

Of course, this may all be entirely wrong, but makes sense now I've seen the armour and HRP mods side by side ;)



goemon said:
it is.

only one of those multipliers is zero ;-)

on the other hand, you can put heavy duty armour on lightweight bulkheads without any mass gain, and still 140% hullboost and resistances...
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Yup, heavy duty armour is effectively one of the best mods going on the basis it has zero downsides and just gives you raw HP and a little bit of resistance.
 

StiTch

StiTch
Mikey2305 said:
Why does this stuff have to be so bloomin complicated...
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Because some of us like knowing what a stat actually means that we're changing, and some of us enjoy working our brains, and some of us enjoy optimising.

If that's not your cup of tea, well good for you - go enjoy your tea and do it elsewhere. There's plenty of flak in the forums from the "I don't care about optimisation because I like to pretend ED is a truck simulator, stop ruining how I want to play mah games guys!!1!11!!" crowd whenever a CMDR starts talking about combat optimisation in their threads, so do me a favour - don't intrude on threads discussing aspects you don't like and leave us space to, well, optimise. Because that's how we enjoy the game.

I happen to enjoy looking at the optimisation in games. Knowing how something operates regardless of whether I use it completely engages me.

So do me a fave and leave the opinion missile at home - it will save both you and me time :)
 
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StiTch

StiTch
Crimson Kaim said:
Hull boost: additional hitpoints
Resistence boost: reduced incoming damage from [Type] of damage to hull.

Same for shields.

Shield boost: Additional MJs for shields
Resistence boost: reduces incoming damage from [Type] of damage to shields.
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Aye, got it under wraps now.

This was back when I was starting on hull upgrades, which I did last, with the RNGineers and being brutally honest was because I was modding hulls and thought I saw two separate boost values. Turns out I was modding a HRP and the hull boost made sense.

Everything that follows is just me getting technical because I like mulling figures over ;)
 

Frenotx

Frenotx
Hull boost = % increase of the ship's base HP. The armour gained by switching from stock to military armour comes from an increased hull reinforcement value. That's why military armour gives different amount of HP to different ships.

Hull reinforcement = flat number of hitpoints added. The armour gained from HRPs comes in the form of hull reinforcement, which is why a class-whatever HRP always adds the same amount of health, regardless of what ship you put it on.
 
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StiTch

StiTch
Frenotx said:
Hull boost = % increase of the ship's base HP. The armour gained by switching from stock to military armour comes from an increased hull reinforcement value. That's why military armour gives different amount of HP to different ships.

Hull reinforcement = flat number of hitpoints added. The armour gained from HRPs comes in the form of hull boost, which is why a class-whatever HRP always adds the same amount of health, regardless of what ship you put it on.
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Yup...we got this ;)

Someone close this thread before we get repeat answers for the next century.

No offense good of course, good sir. But I realised shortly after thread creation this was because I was having a half asleep moment.
 
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Kaocraft

Kaocraft
Frenotx said:
Hull boost = % increase of the ship's base HP. The armour gained by switching from stock to military armour comes from an increased hull reinforcement value. That's why military armour gives different amount of HP to different ships.

Hull reinforcement = flat number of hitpoints added. The armour gained from HRPs comes in the form of hull boost, which is why a class-whatever HRP always adds the same amount of health, regardless of what ship you put it on.
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In the first paragraph you state that Hull Boost is a %increase. In your second paragraph you state that HRPs give Hull Boost, which is why they always add the same amount of HP regardless of what ship you put it on. These statements are contradictory. Which is it?

Also want to mention: When you engineer an HRP with the "lightweight" mod, one of the three randomized variables is "Hull Boost". I came to this thread trying to find out the difference between Hull Boost and Hull Reinforcement (the Heavy Duty mod for HRPs gives Hull Reinforcemt while the Lightweight mod gives Hull Boost). After reading all the comments I am more confused than before.
 

Frenotx

Frenotx
Kaocraft said:
In the first paragraph you state that Hull Boost is a %increase. In your second paragraph you state that HRPs give Hull Boost, which is why they always add the same amount of HP regardless of what ship you put it on. These statements are contradictory. Which is it?

Also want to mention: When you engineer an HRP with the "lightweight" mod, one of the three randomized variables is "Hull Boost". I came to this thread trying to find out the difference between Hull Boost and Hull Reinforcement (the Heavy Duty mod for HRPs gives Hull Reinforcemt while the Lightweight mod gives Hull Boost). After reading all the comments I am more confused than before.
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My apologies. There was a typo. The second paragraph should read:
"Hull reinforcement = flat number of hitpoints added. The armour gained from HRPs comes in the form of hull reinforcement, which is why a class-whatever HRP always adds the same amount of health, regardless of what ship you put it on."
I've edited the original post with the correction. Thanks for pointing that out.
 

Achilles7

Banned
Achilles7
Yeah another example of dork fodder - ain't nobody got time for this Shiite (not Sunni)! I work with Business Objects & critical pathways which is challenging. but even I can't be bothered with the over-complexity of terms & mechanics in this spaceship game. Add to that FD's obsession with making your ship randomly malfunction due to 'magic weapons' during a fight & that's why I'm calling it a day after 2 years.

Ho Hum...NEXT? I might look at the SC mess - I haven't checked it out for over a year - I'm not overly optimistic! :D
 

JARXX

J
Frenotx said:
Hull boost = % increase of the ship's base HP.

Hull reinforcement = flat number of hitpoints added.
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What does HP stand for? Is it hitpoints? You're using HP in one definition and hitpoints in the other. So they're the same, but one is a percentage and the other a whole number? It doesn't make any sense.
 

metatheurgist

metatheurgist
How to put it in a way a necromancer would understand?

Say you have 5 skeletons. A 20% boost to your skeletons you give you one more skeleton, giving you a total of 6. A reinforcement of 2 skeletons would give you a total of 7.
Say you have 10 ghouls. A 20% boost to your ghouls would give you 2 more ghouls, giving you a total of 12. A reinforcement of 2 ghouls would also give you a total of 12.

Basic math, ain't it grand. Less digging around graves and more book learnings foul sorcerer.
 
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