The ED Open Live Stream

[Arguendo]

It's way too easy atm to sneak into high sec system stations and reload.

This is the part that bugs me a lot, but another side of it.
The station, or the STC (Space Traffic Controller) if you like, already knows who the cmdr is. They call you by name when you request docking, or the first three letters of it. So, knowing who the cmdr asking for docking is, it is silly that you then can "sneak in" and dock at the station. The STC should double-check the name with the known "Top 5 Bounties" in the system and duly deny any requests to dock! The logical fallacy of this behaviour is insane, and like I said; It bugs me a lot!

 

[Soon(TM)]

Hello Commanders!

Interesting debate.

A few points though:

* Anyone who thinks that Devs publicly announcing their location in game won't get ganked is wrong. We're aware of the giant targets that get painted on our heads (especially when we put them there), and no amount of karma or punishment will ever prevent our untimely and repeated demise.

* Whether it's a single vessel with top level Engineer upgrades, a wing of A rated FDLs or a couple of vipers versus a type 7, it's possible to massively stack the odds in one direction or another. Picking on one element is, to my mind, possibly making a less useful point.

* Starport defences clearly had a wobbly. We've upgraded them significantly for 2.2; we'll be keeping an eye on how they perform.

* Adam was not upset by being ganked, he was upset because Dav beat him, in part due to his greed that cost him a bunch of bonds! He can be quite the competitive one. And I'm sure that when I'm next on stream I'll get my backside served up on a silver platter many, many times (I'm nowhere near as good as Adam, especially on gamepad).

All this being true, that's not to say that we aren't looking at ways in which to improve player-to-player interactions, whether by some form of karma or rating system or whatever (I've discussed this a couple of times in these forums, I believe). I do think we can make improvements.

Hi Sandro,

So do you agree that the crime and punishment system needs looking at?

I mean surely if one commander murders another from the pilots federation there should be severe consequences, not just a small bounty in one system that can be erased with a Sucidewinder?

 

[Theodrid]

snip

Hey Sandro,

While there is no doubt that any of the dev team advertising their location in open paints a huge 'shoot me' tag on them.I do question some of your other points.

Station defence having a 'wobbly' or being beefed up in 2.2 is so far on the fringes of the issues raised n this thread and others, as well as the stream that it is almost missing the point.

You guys have stated many, many times that you didn't want combat to be over in seconds, that you wanted combat, as much as possible, to have meaning and be rare. What your devs experienced during that stream was not dissimilar to any CG in open, station camping included.

Many of us do not want the galaxy to be safe, however, we would like a degree of believability, accountability, through significant C&P improvements and a toning down of the 'dead in seconds' engineer mods and loadings.

Tweaking station defences and trying to pretend Adam didn't mind what was going on isn't really cutting it, his face spoke a thousand words, and very few of those words were, 'aww, Dav won'

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Hey Sandro,

While there is no doubt that any of the dev team advertising their location in open paints a huge 'shoot me' tag on them.I do question some of your other points.

Station defence having a 'wobbly' or being beefed up in 2.2 is so far on the fringes of the issues raised n this thread and others, as well as the stream that it is almost missing the point.

You guys have stated many, many times that you didn't want combat to be over in seconds, that you wanted combat, as much as possible, to have meaning and be rare. What your devs experienced during that stream was not dissimilar to any CG in open, station camping included.

Many of us do not want the galaxy to be safe, however, we would like a degree of believability, accountability, through significant C&P improvements and a toning down of the 'dead in seconds' engineer mods and loadings.

Tweaking station defences and trying to pretend Adam didn't mind what was going on isn't really cutting it, his face spoke a thousand words, and very few of those words were, 'aww, Dav won'

I would like to point out that it has never been very different from situation in stream - people who are professional gankers will have their ships maxed out (because it seems that's their life goal, so shrug), and Engineers and no Engineers really doesn't matter much to these players (usually means are your ship blown up in 5 or 20 seconds). Karma system - along with piracy declaration - has *always* been way to go forward. It won't solve everything, but it at least will add pain for being sociopath outlaw (which is fine as role - as long there are in-game tools to mitigate such behavior).

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commander Soon(TM)!

That's a bit of a loaded question, isn't it?

In short, I think there are ways, given time and resources, that we could improve the crime system specifically for player-on-player infractions.

I don't necessarily agree that without these features the current game is broken. On occasion brutal and unforgiving perhaps.

But yes, our ideas do run along the lines that the Pilot's Federation takes a dim view of in-fighting.

And yup, we're interested in ways of preventing the free sidewinder from being used to minimise costs.

No ETA or guarantees (this is me, after all), but some form of karma system is something we're looking into.

 

[Theodrid]

I would like to point out that it has never been very different from situation in stream - people who are professional gankers will have their ships maxed out (because it seems that's their life goal, so shrug), and Engineers and no Engineers really doesn't matter much to these players (usually means are your ship blown up in 5 or 20 seconds). Karma system - along with piracy declaration - has *always* been way to go forward. It won't solve everything, but it at least will add pain for being sociopath outlaw (which is fine as role - as long there are in-game tools to mitigate such behavior).

My post was about he game, not the stream, and while a 'karma system' is a step in the right direction it is still just a mythical step. This has needed addressing for ages, 'thinking about it', 'talking about it', and maybes don't really cut it anymore.

This issue, in my opinion, is the most nonsensical and broken part of the game, a crime system that makes sense and a pilots federation that makes sense is more Important than CQC, powerplay and ship launched fighters put together imo and should have been implemented way before now.

 

[hiciacit]

This issue, in my opinion, is the most nonsensical and broken part of the game, a crime system that makes sense and a pilots federation that makes sense is more Important than CQC, powerplay and ship launched fighters put together imo and should have been implemented way before now.

Cannot rep you anymore as I already repped the previous post, so I'm just repeating this here. Judging by Sandro's answer though, it seems we're not be getting any of that any time soon ...

 

[Arguendo]

Cannot rep you anymore as I already repped the previous post...

Did it for you

 

[Soon(TM)]

Hello Commander Soon(TM)!

That's a bit of a loaded question, isn't it?

In short, I think there are ways, given time and resources, that we could improve the crime system specifically for player-on-player infractions.

I don't necessarily agree that without these features the current game is broken. On occasion brutal and unforgiving perhaps.

But yes, our ideas do run along the lines that the Pilot's Federation takes a dim view of in-fighting.

And yup, we're interested in ways of preventing the free sidewinder from being used to minimise costs.

No ETA or guarantees (this is me, after all), but some form of karma system is something we're looking into.

Hi Sandro,

Thanks for the reply, it's appreciated.

I don't think the game is "broken".

I just think that in open, high lvl PVP players with maxed out ships seems to get off very lightly in terms of punishment for murdering fellow Pilots Federation members.

And the Sucidewinder thing is real, the punishment for killing fellow commanders in lawful systems needs to carry over after death or we will never get past the Sucidewinder way out.

I'm hoping we see some developments Soon TM

 

[Bigskill]

Hello Commanders!

Interesting debate.

A few points though:

* Anyone who thinks that Devs publicly announcing their location in game won't get ganked is wrong. We're aware of the giant targets that get painted on our heads (especially when we put them there), and no amount of karma or punishment will ever prevent our untimely and repeated demise.

* Whether it's a single vessel with top level Engineer upgrades, a wing of A rated FDLs or a couple of vipers versus a type 7, it's possible to massively stack the odds in one direction or another. Picking on one element is, to my mind, possibly making a less useful point.

* Starport defences clearly had a wobbly. We've upgraded them significantly for 2.2; we'll be keeping an eye on how they perform.

* Adam was not upset by being ganked, he was upset because Dav beat him, in part due to his greed that cost him a bunch of bonds! He can be quite the competitive one. And I'm sure that when I'm next on stream I'll get my backside served up on a silver platter many, many times (I'm nowhere near as good as Adam, especially on gamepad).

All this being true, that's not to say that we aren't looking at ways in which to improve player-to-player interactions, whether by some form of karma or rating system or whatever (I've discussed this a couple of times in these forums, I believe). I do think we can make improvements.

I Sandro, I think that the most impressive part on the streaming was how a non modded ship cant last in open, and how different they are compared the engeneered one.
With engeneer implemantation a huge gap has been created where normal ship are not viable anymore, and person that want to survive have to spend hours gathering stupid materials around the galaxy, without having fun.
Also I well remember some Adam words wondering how was possible to receive so much damage in short time. Yes smokeweez corvette is lethal, but the point is this show how mucha Devs really test the game before to release a patch...... I know you guys working hard to fix this game and to balance it, but many months passed already with no significant change on Powerplay for example..... but there can be other examples. Bug like the cargo desappearing when pirating, for how long hav been ignored....
Why dont make the game better before to release new stuff.... I dont get it.....

 

[Soon(TM)]

I totally agree about the issues with Open.

It only takes 1 pilot out of 100 to be a jerk, and you get blown up. Many of my deaths in Open have been from crashing into someone blocking the mail slot, or messing around, and that sort of cash loss from idiots means a whole week of grind is lost in seconds. I have class 5 rated engineers shields and boosters, but I last exactly 2 minutes inside a combat zone against NPCs, so against any real player would be suicide.

I think the fines for 'Murder and Destruction of Multi-Million Credit Property' are just a joke. I lose 15M CR and my attacker gains a 1000cr bounty. That should be the OTHER WAY AROUND! I have my ship insured, so I should only have to pay a token cost (1000 CR, but the premium should go up a bit), and my attacker should get a bounty of 15M; the total assets of the property being destroyed. So if they blow up a sidey they get a few thousand bounty, but if they blow up my Corvette, I should be able to fly back to them in Open, and shoot them down to reclaim MY 15M CR loss, and get the money back! If the attackers kills 10 ships, they should have a bounty which reflects that, and become wanted throughout the whole galaxy, with the total combined value of their destructions, e.g 100M cr. This way, players will think twice before attacking other players.

edit: in the old days, they would kill someone and hang a person for doing something small, like stealing cattle - life was cheap. Now life is expensive, the punishment for murder is life - in prison - if they kill 1 person or 1000.

I see what your saying, but it would probably turn into a kind of "hack"

PVP guy kills 10 people, gets a bounty of 100 million...

PvP guys friend comes along, scans him with kill warrant scanner...

PvP guy let's PVP guys friend kill him and claim 100 million bounty reward.

PvP guy respawns, PVP guys friend goes out and kills loads of people gets 100 million bounty and returns the favor.

Rinse and repeat until you have more money than the game can display!

 

[Riverside]

No ETA or guarantees (this is me, after all), but some form of karma system is something we're looking into.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to the issues raised in this live stream. However, a timescale really would be appropriate on this topic. We are not discussing a new feature here, we are trying to solve a problem. Please give this higher priority. I suggest Ed does not run another stream in Open until you (as a company) have a handle on this.

 

[GeneralIdea1964]

Hello Commander Soon(TM)!

That's a bit of a loaded question, isn't it?

In short, I think there are ways, given time and resources, that we could improve the crime system specifically for player-on-player infractions.

I don't necessarily agree that without these features the current game is broken. On occasion brutal and unforgiving perhaps.

But yes, our ideas do run along the lines that the Pilot's Federation takes a dim view of in-fighting.

And yup, we're interested in ways of preventing the free sidewinder from being used to minimise costs.

No ETA or guarantees (this is me, after all), but some form of karma system is something we're looking into.

This whole thread has drifted off-topic, but anyway ..

I think that maybe a very heavy fine ... how about the combined value of both ships the attackers and the one destroyed?

Alternatively make the fine the difference in value of the two ships.
This might dissuade a corvette or similar from picking on an eagle or sidewinder.
Good for new players, who I have seen get trolled quite a bit.

Maybe for very high values, couple that with demotion of Elite rank.

But keep it so Bounty on you only goes up by a bit as current.
This would continue to address the dying to make your friend's credits issue.

[yesnod]

 

[Bigskill]

This whole thread has drifted off-topic, but anyway ..

I think that maybe a very heavy fine ... how about the combined value of both ships the attackers and the one destroyed?

Alternatively make the fine the difference in value of the two ships.
This might dissuade a corvette or similar from picking on an eagle or sidewinder.
Good for new players, who I have seen get trolled quite a bit.

Maybe for very high values, couple that with demotion of Elite rank.

But keep it so Bounty on you only goes up by a bit as current.
This would continue to address the dying to make your friend's credits issue.

[yesnod]

Answer issimple, make people be able to Put a bounty, and other people to look for a bounty. Is not difficult, systems already track where wanted have been seen last....

 

[Zaroca]

It's very simply in fact. Just discount the rebuy of the offender ship to the amount of the bounty. If the offender has 1.000.000 bounty and commit a suicidewinder he should still have 999k credits of bounty.

Second: make the phrase "High security system" real. If you choose live against the system is logical to be pursued and expelled from "civilized" space.

And last but not least: in my opinion is a completely non-sense that you can actually survive to an attack from a starport or cap ship (or even make them retreat!!!) Those things are suppoused to worth billions and billions credits and they should be powerful enough to wipe its inmediations without effort. Just be coherent in worth, sizes and firepower.

Just my opinion )

 

[GeneralIdea1964]

Thank you for taking the time to respond to the issues raised in this live stream. However, a timescale really would be appropriate on this topic. We are not discussing a new feature here, we are trying to solve a problem. Please give this higher priority. I suggest Ed does not run another stream in Open until you (as a company) have a handle on this.

I disagree with you. I have no issues with the live stream event. It was a great idea.

If you come to the party, expect to get your nice shiny ship destroyed, probably several times.

Just ensure you can afford it.

I would suggest bringing a small ship to the event that you can afford to lose over and over. It'll be more fun to fly and with a bit of luck you might give a cmdr in a bigger ship a bloody nose.

Like CG's this is the sort of thing that you have to be prepared for some PvP action as the norm.



The point of the steam was that people could come and blow up the Devs

 

[Shadowdancer]

No ETA or guarantees (this is me, after all), but some form of karma system is something we're looking into.

I would like if that karma system had to do with enforcer ships carrying multicannons that had a slight inbreeding accident with plasma accelerators. We know that you have the technology!

 

[GeneralIdea1964]

Answer issimple, make people be able to Put a bounty, and other people to look for a bounty. Is not difficult, systems already track where wanted have been seen last....

that would make trolling even more likely. I'd put a large bounty on some poor random player and then my friend goes and kills him to collect the bounty.

The bounty and reward system should still be lodged in the game mechanics free from outside influence.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Ejection from the FoEP, insurance null and void, and Wanted status in all systems assosciated with where the criminal activity took place, and bounty against CMDR and not the ship

Those who really want to pew-pew should be able to do so, but there should be equivalent consequences. Strip them of their ranks, make them unable to openly trade or refit or buy ships in unfriendly space, but leave anarchy and neutral open to them. Let them rank up in an alternative system that recognizes tyranny and terror as valuable tendencies. Give that style of play viable in-game reason to exist, but being a rampaging, crazed, flea-bitten, pew-pew murder hobo in an Imperial Cutter an incredibly difficult thing to pull off successfully.

 

[Winterwalker]

Answer issimple, make people be able to Put a bounty, and other people to look for a bounty. Is not difficult, systems already track where wanted have been seen last....

System security will certainly open fire on you if you're wanted. How strong is the draw for NPC bounty-hunters, to a player with a (PvP) bounty? I personally liked the "top ten bounties" + last seen location (could nav beacons keep you updated on that last location??) what happened to those?

I thought it was a great livestream (even got an Ed Lewis shout out for saying exactly that at the time). Not sure advertising a week in advance will be the thing, but if time and place were advertised at short notice, the first half could demo the (combat zone, medium security installation data mission, cargio run, mining challenge, whichever) with the second half opening up to perhaps more chaotic ganking slash defender play. Personally I thought the stream really entertaining and did laugh quite a lot, though (forgive me Adam) perhaps that's because I was rooting for Dav. It was an aposite lesson in taking care on who to give your wing beacon to!



+ this

Ejection from the FoEP, insurance null and void, and Wanted status in all systems assosciated with where the criminal activity took place, and bounty against CMDR and not the ship

Those who really want to pew-pew should be able to do so, but there should be equivalent consequences. Strip them of their ranks, make them unable to openly trade or refit or buy ships in unfriendly space, but leave anarchy and neutral open to them. Let them rank up in an alternative system that recognizes tyranny and terror as valuable tendencies. Give that style of play viable in-game reason to exist, but being a rampaging, crazed, flea-bitten, pew-pew murder hobo in an Imperial Cutter an incredibly difficult thing to pull off successfully.