Open mode having a 'PVE Only' toggle would solve all our problems?

Should Open have a 'PVE Only' toggle?

  • Yes (I Play PVE)

    Votes: 161 45.1%
  • No (I Play PVE)

    Votes: 148 41.5%
  • Yes (I play PVP)

    Votes: 14 3.9%
  • No (I play PVP)

    Votes: 34 9.5%

  • Total voters
    357
  • Poll closed .
The PvP'er will hate to Play in an open where 99% of Player they meet they can not shoot at and will seek ways like blocking entrance or whatever to express their dislike of that System. They will feel betrayed. It is mostly better to separate the different Play style minds on different Servers.

I favour a PVE open mode also, but I must warn that these kind of schemes will always find its way to either PVP/PVE open. Anyways, it's not combat, it's just a jest that players can learn to enjoy. (Things like dropping cargo to lure other to retrieve it and get an illegal cargo tag.
block a station's passage.
Block a small port landing pad.
Ramming.
Scan a ship when it carries a secretive passenger. :D
and probably many more will come.)
 
I wrote a rather long and critical post earlier this morning and decided to remove the lot. This murkey topic always gets me going though.

The thing that gets me the most about this issue in general is that most people play in Open and have no trouble with it. Yet all it takes is for a few people here and there to complain each day when they are emotionally upset for being attacked for 'no reason'. Its a cutthroat galaxy, set against a backdrop of raw anarchy and power plays. Thats one reason.

Prior to ED the entire Elite franchise has had a ranking system based upon mass murder and you couldn't avoid combat like you can in this game. I think thats more the issue than folks crying about pvp. Oddly, there seems to be an aversion to combat in general; 'I'm a trader', 'an explorer', I hear people say. 'I was attacked for no reason'.. [wacky]

Derp! Its a space sim where we pilot ever increasingly heavily armed spaceships. Its natural to shoot at others. If you choose to play as a planet hugging hippie type, or a fruit and veg delievery driver thats up to you but its time to stop expecting everyone else to think that way too.

Some of the endless moaning around here its baffling. Its like someone just bought a racing game and complains the cars go too fast. Three modes to choose frmo guys, you can switch between them any time at your leisure..
 
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Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Derp! Its a space sim where we pilot ever increasingly heavily armed spaceships. Its natural to shoot at others.

For some, undoubtedly.

Given that two of the three paths to Elite do not require the player to equip weapons and the third does not require the player to shoot at another player, that indicates that the whole "shoot at others" is entirely optional - and is therefore a conscious choice on the part of the player.
 
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For some, undoubtedly.

Given that two of the three paths to Elite do not require the player to equip weapons and the third does not require the player to shoot at another player, that indicates that the whole "shoot at others" is entirely optional - and is therefore a conscious choice on the part of the player.

Id say its rather more a conscious choice to go out ones way to avoid one of the core elements of the game, and the thing that defined the origiinal, highly succesful, Elite. That involves shooting at things.

Reason I suggest this is because all I seem to see on this forum is people complaining about losing their ship. The 2.1 drama on how hard the game had become was a revealing expose.
 
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No, because there is no problem.

And you give yourself away by saying all the private and solo people can come out of hiding.


Should Open have a 'PVE Only' toggle? So in the function panel I can select to enable this, and then I cannot shoot CMDRs, and am invulnerable to CMDR attacks while it is activated?

This means that all the Solo and Private people can come out of hiding, and all re-unite in the Open mode? The PVPers won't lose anything, because these extra players would not normally be in Open anyway.

However it would need a very long 'cool down period' to avoid abuse. So if you had killed a player previously, you can't enable the flag for maybe 24 hours? And if you had it turned on, it would be 24 hours before you could engage in PVP after you turn it off for example? This would stop people using it as a trolling function.

I literally cannot see a single downside to this, and it would bring everyone back together so that we are a single player group.

Obviously people who want to play only with friends can still use Private, which is what it is for. Not for PVE players to use as a 'grief shield'.

Thoughts?

I have added 4 options to the poll, so that it can be seen what percentage of PVP vs PVE players think this is a good/bad idea. It would be useful if you vote, to state why you voted for your given choice.
 
I'm not sure how you can find it baffling. It's fairly obvious that being in combat with NPCs and being destroyed by players with specifically designed player killing ships is an entirely different psychological concept.
Leaving that aside, you don't know how many people are active in the different modes or how many of them complain (or don't) about being "attacked for no reason". You can (and you have) make some assumptions, but that's all they are so they carry relatively little weight as arguments go and fail to address the issues that are raised.
Personally, I'd like to see an open pve mode - rather than a flag- and to see what happens within that mode. If that then proves to be the "death of open", then I guess that that actually does tell you something about the numbers of people and their preferences. If, on the other hand, open pve turns out to be deserted, then it shows that it doesn't have a draw. My guess? I'd expect it to be reasonably popular and draw some people in from solo to take part in cooperative gameplay.
In any event, introducing another play mode or style still wouldn't address the core crime/punishment mechanic issues that actually being this sort of thread about in the first place. Even an open pve mode is just another way of sidestepping the problem.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Id says its rather more a conscious choice to go out ones way to avoid one of the core elements of the game, and the thing that defined the origiinal, highly succesful, Elite. That involves shooting at things.

Reason I suggest this is because all I seem to see on this forum is people complaining about losing their ship. The 2.1 drama on how hard the game had become was a revealing expose.

Of course the original was about shooting at things (and trade) - it was necessarily limited by the hardware limitations at the time (and the fact that the original was created within 22kiB of code was a significant achievement). However, this is the first in the franchise that offers players the opportunity to shoot at other players - some will choose to do so, some will not.

Not wanting to shoot at other players does not necessarily mean that a player is incapable of combat - it's a choice after all.

I would expect that it is perfectly possible to achieve combat Elite without encountering / engaging another player - by design.

The issue with the step change in AI difficulty in 2.1 was just that - it was a significant step change - and it fundamentally changed the enjoyment of the game for those who were adversely affected. Had the AI been so challenging from the outset, there'd have been no sudden complaint - because it would have been balanced at the outset, not between sub-point releases in the live game.
 
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No, because there is no problem.

And you give yourself away by saying all the private and solo people can come out of hiding.

What do you mean I 'give myself away'? I play Mobius myself so I'm unsure about what I'd be giving away? EDIT: I've edited my OP to stop people getting confused.

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I wrote a rather long and critical post earlier this morning and decided to remove the lot. This murkey topic always gets me going though.

The thing that gets me the most about this issue in general is that most people play in Open and have no trouble with it. Yet all it takes is for a few people here and there to complain each day when they are emotionally upset for being attacked for 'no reason'. Its a cutthroat galaxy, set against a backdrop of raw anarchy and power plays. Thats one reason.

Prior to ED the entire Elite franchise has had a ranking system based upon mass murder and you couldn't avoid combat like you can in this game. I think thats more the issue than folks crying about pvp. Oddly, there seems to be an aversion to combat in general; 'I'm a trader', 'an explorer', I hear people say. 'I was attacked for no reason'.. [wacky]

Derp! Its a space sim where we pilot ever increasingly heavily armed spaceships. Its natural to shoot at others. If you choose to play as a planet hugging hippie type, or a fruit and veg delievery driver thats up to you but its time to stop expecting everyone else to think that way too.

Some of the endless moaning around here its baffling. Its like someone just bought a racing game and complains the cars go too fast. Three modes to choose frmo guys, you can switch between them any time at your leisure..

If it was genuinely a SIM, we should have a much more realistic crime and punishment system.

Your last sentence again is twisted to your view. The act of griefing and shooting players for no reason is like buying a racing game and then ramming other players, then justifying your actions because "the game lets me do it, therefore that's what you're supposed to do".
 
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Should Open have a 'PVE Only' toggle? So in the function panel I can select to enable this, and then I cannot shoot CMDRs, and am invulnerable to CMDR attacks while it is activated?

This means that all the Solo and Private people can come out of hiding, and all re-unite in the Open mode? The PVPers won't lose anything, because these extra players would not normally be in Open anyway.

However it would need a very long 'cool down period' to avoid abuse. So if you had killed a player previously, you can't enable the flag for maybe 24 hours? And if you had it turned on, it would be 24 hours before you could engage in PVP after you turn it off for example? This would stop people using it as a trolling function.

I literally cannot see a single downside to this, and it would bring everyone back together so that we are a single player group.

Obviously people who want to play only with friends can still use Private, which is what it is for. Not for PVE players to use as a 'grief shield'.

Thoughts?

I have added 4 options to the poll, so that it can be seen what percentage of PVP vs PVE players think this is a good/bad idea. It would be useful if you vote, to state why you voted for your given choice.

This was proposed by myself and others wayyyy back in KS days and it was nay sayed then and will probably be continued to be so now, and forever. It works in WoW and other games but you will always come up against the immersion problem stated here ad nauseum.
We dogfight biplane style in space, no immersion there. We have wings on space ships so they look aerodynamic, no immersion there. We have projectile weapons that after being launched only have a couple of kilometer range, errm we are in space with nothing really to slow projectiles down, no immersion there. When we approach a planet to land we suddenly crash out of hyperspace. Where is the immersion there? When we fire missiles, lasers, projectiles our ship stays rock steady no Newtons 2nd Law of Motion, no immersion there. Glass screens on the front of space craft which if even a fleck of paint hit them would shatter into a million pieces, again no immersion there. Not getting sucked into black holes from quite close etc,etc ad nauseum. So lets put the immersion argument to bed as it does not work.
The only reason a number of people want Open to remain the ungoverned lawless gankfest it can be, is because it is just another game they can grief and gank other players to get their jollies. Where is the immersion in that.
If the human race ever had the nous to go and colonize space in the way Elite portrays they would have long before, become a cooperative race of human beings as that is the only way they could survive as a race in the hostile environment of space. That would be true immersion not the open PVP War Thunder in Space it is at this time.
 
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I'm not sure how you can find it baffling. It's fairly obvious that being in combat with NPCs and being destroyed by players with specifically designed player killing ships is an entirely different psychological concept.

I don't tend to get upset about losing a ship and I lost plenty when I first started playing the game. Back in Alpha there wasn't much else to do other than shoot at other players but people still moaned up a river even then, with nothing to lose, when we were testing the game.

Leaving that aside, you don't know how many people are active in the different modes or how many of them complain (or don't) about being "attacked for no reason". You can (and you have) make some assumptions, but that's all they are so they carry relatively little weight as arguments go and fail to address the issues that are raised.

You're right we don't know the exact stats. I'd be happy for Frontier to release them but they won't. Nevertheless, every poll I've seen here and on reddit has the same response and player distribution.

~55% say they play in Open, about ~25% solo, and ~20% in private group. With so many polls having being conducted thats the best we have to go on.

Personally, I'd like to see an open pve mode - rather than a flag- and to see what happens within that mode. If that then proves to be the "death of open", then I guess that that actually does tell you something about the numbers of people and their preferences. If, on the other hand, open pve turns out to be deserted, then it shows that it doesn't have a draw. My guess? I'd expect it to be reasonably popular and draw some people in from solo to take part in cooperative gameplay.

This is the sort of thing that happened with Ultima Online and led to its demise. DB thinks it was the PKers which did it but after they split the game into PvE and PvP the game quickly folded as people lost interest. Sure they made a quick buck in the short term since they got more people playing it, but in doing so they forgot what made the game successful and alienated a whole bunch of their hardcore players.. The casuals moved on and lost interest..

Online games need a variety of players to be successful. If some can't accept they'll have their ship blown up occasionally then they are in the wrong game.

In any event, introducing another play mode or style still wouldn't address the core crime/punishment mechanic issues that actually being this sort of thread about in the first place. Even an open pve mode is just another way of sidestepping the problem.

I think its well accepted the crime system is a bit wanting but even solo and pg strike me as an easy substitute for better thought out game mechanics.

All this fuss kicked up because a few people get emotionally upset like kids over an imaginery blown up space ship. The game is already 99.99% PvE, two modes to avoid other players, and a host of design choices to further inhibit whats possible.

Some people round here won't be happy until they have that last 0.01% - and since thats the element I find fun, I'm not happy at the prospect. But these types just won't compromise over anything, it must be all their way, or the forum drama never ends, apparently there is no room in the game for players like me. Pretty sad.
 
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This was proposed by myself and others wayyyy back in KS days and it was nay sayed then and will probably be continued to be so now. and forever. It works in WoW and other games but you will always come up against the immersion problem.

Probably the single biggest restricting factor in the development of this game...

I'm quite happy to stand corrected if I'm wrong, but I imagine that the hardcore of this game (forum users, immersionists, backers etc.) probably now only account for a small percentage of the total player base? (or at least not the majority anymore)

And if we keep tailoring the game towards the minority (which I understand FD are obliged to do, as it's what people backed the game for) then it won't appeal to the masses. And I know the hardcore will say "but we don't want it to appeal to the masses, this is a space sim not COD"

But we need the masses as they are the ones who will keep funding the game and keep the servers populated as time goes on.
 
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Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
I'm quite happy to stand corrected if I'm wrong, but I imagine that the hardcore of this game (forum users, immersionists, backers etc.) probably now only account for a small percentage of the total player base? (or at least not the majority anymore)

And if we keep tailoring the game towards the minority (which I understand FD are obliged to do, as it's what people backed the game for) then it won't appeal to the masses. And I know the hardcore will say "but we don't want it to appeal to the masses, this is a space sim not COD"

But we need the masses as they are the ones who will keep funding the game and keep the servers populated as time goes on.

If the Instant vs Delay vote is anything to go by, 70% of players, who expressed their preference, tend toward "keeping the game consistent with itself".

.... and "we" are not tailoring the game - Frontier, as they have said many times, are making the game "we want to play", i.e. their way.
 
There is a contradiction going through the minds of some around here that really makes my brain hurt.

Before I delve into it, I will be clear that I am primarily a Solo/Private Group Pilot. It's unlikely that you will ever see me in open or even Mobius for that matter.
So take everything that I say with a grain of salt.
I voted NO to a Open PvE flag, I do not think it is an ideal solution.
I believe players have the right to be psychotic. I believe players should be able to kill defenseless explorers and traders.

However, It's not fun to be the defenseless trader or explorer. So these players start asking for protection.
The contradiction though, is when the killer replies, "It's called Elite Dangerous it's supposed to be Dangerous. Why do you want the game less dangerous?"
The problem here, Mr. Killer, is that the game isn't "Dangerous" for you. Where, pray tell, is the danger in killing a defenseless ship? You want the game to be dangerous, but you don't seem to want the game to be dangerous for you.

System security is a joke, even in high security systems. They drop in and have to scan everyone first, and usually it ends up being the victim they scan first. Additionally, it takes about 10 seconds to complete a scan, which is too long in a combat scenario.
Concord, in EVE, is instantaneous, and they come in guns blazing.(At least since the last time I played) I left EVE because I don't really enjoy PvP(at least in the way EVE does it) all that much, but it NEVER felt unfair like it does in Elite.
Now, I haven't flown a Corvette or Anaconda, but I have flown the Fer Del Lance. NPCs are a joke in a FDL, pre buffs, pre engineers. With all the buffs that FDLs get every other update and the engineer upgrades. NPCs become really really really sad joke. So sad, that the joke became funny then sad again.
It's so bad, that I only fly the smaller combat ships.

Other players, player policing? Instancing get's in the way the majority of the time. There is no player to player bounties. No player bounty board. No way to track wanted players.

The pilots federation insures the majority of your ships cost on death. So it is not unreasonable to remove a large portion or all of the insurance for killing(NOT ATTACKING) a fellow Pilots federation member who was not a legal target. This could be a percentage that scales based on how "unfair" the murder was. This would push gankers/greifers into smaller ships, and diminish the ridiculously unbalanced scenarios. This penalty would last about a week or as long as it takes for the initial bounty to go dormant. The week resets when the player kills an illegal target again, with the penalty for that added on to the first up to the full cost of the ship.
This would ensure that CMDR Voldemort( not any specific player just picked a random name) would have to hide our a week before he is safe to kill another newbie in a sidewinder with his Corvette.
This would have to be compounded with better player bounty tools and better system security.

Now legal targets can be defined as a Player in an opposing Powerplay faction that doesn't share the same major faction. So the Empire Powerplay factions can't murder each other etc. Players in an opposing faction in a combat zone. Players with a bounty, provided that they are kill warrant scanned in the scenarios it applies. Players with "Report Crimes Against Me" turned off(for the purpose of dueling). Players who fire first(in case the duel was a trick).

TL : DR Psychotic behavior or griefing should be severely punished, but not restricted.

If people fly around in ships that are defenceless whose responsibility is that? Everyone has a choice when they equip their chosen ship.

Labelling people pyschos for shooting at others is baffling, its mudslinging, and malinging natural behaviour in the context of the game.. Theres a never ending stream of abuse hurled at people, pyschos, rapists, murder hobos, griefers, gankers.. Yet we aren't allowed to respond in kind and believe me there are plenty of pejorative terms I could use to describe others playstyle.

They don't call NPCs who shoot at people 'for no reason' the same do they? There seems to be some ridiculous expectation that if you play in an unarmed or poorly defended ship you should never get shot at. Rubbish, if you fly around defenceless thats a choice and a silly one at that.

I do agree with you about system security, it should mean something, but then the ability to make credits should also have an element of risk and reward too. That all said, even when people are shot at in lawless areas they complain..

You do touch upon something though, the game doesn't have much in the way of jeopardy. We asked for it, they delevered NPC 2.1, and then the forums were overflowing with salt. Its too hard [cry].. And thus the danger removed because of all the whining and drama.
 
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If the Instant vs Delay vote is anything to go by, 70% of players, who expressed their preference, tend toward "keeping the game consistent with itself".

.... and "we" are not tailoring the game - Frontier, as they have said many times, are making the game "we want to play", i.e. their way.

But it wasn't 70% of ALL players though was it, it was 70% of the players who cared/felt strongly enough to respond. The majority of which would have been forum users/backers etc. as I said before, the hardcore.

I never even got an email about the vote, so how many others didn't? As the stats showed, only a TINY fraction of the player base actually voted.
 
But it wasn't 70% of ALL players though was it, it was 70% of the players who cared/felt strongly enough to respond. The majority of which would have been forum users/backers etc. as I said before, the hardcore.

I never even got an email about the vote, so how many others didn't? As the stats showed, only a TINY fraction of the player base actually voted.

Oh come on, we've had this before. Frontier emailed EVERYONE who registered their email address with Frontier, i.e. everyone who's downloaded the game, to tell them about the poll. If they didn't vote, that isn't fault of the 70% that voted for a delay, so don't keep trotting out this " it wasn't everyone" excuse.

EDIT: Do you really think the result would have been different to the 70%/30% split if more people voted? Because I don't think it would have.
 
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Er, Mobius.... !!!!

As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, for Mobius to continue at it's current growth it needs at least 2 things to happen...

1. A server enforced no fire rule, as relying on peoples goodwill/honesty when signing up doesn't always work
2. The current 15k per group limit needs to be lifted, as we're now at the point where Mobius has 30k members, so we are already having to skim off the inactive users to avoid creating a 3rd group! Either that or just turn Mobius into the official PVE mode which would be awesome.

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Oh come on, we've had this before. Frontier emailed EVERYONE who registered their email address with Frontier, i.e. everyone who's downloaded the game, to tell them about the poll. If they didn't vote, that isn't fault of the 70% that voted for a delay, so don't keep trotting out this " it wasn't everyone" excuse.

Well I didn't get an email and I've had the game for 18 months, so where was my email? Clearly not everyone got one. And equally, not everyone who voted for delays really appreciated how long and expensive they would be. It's a bit like Brexit, seemed like a good idea until it actually happened.

Anyway, this is going off topic so enough about ship transfers.
 
Well I didn't get an email and I've had the game for 18 months, so where was my email? Clearly not everyone got one. And equally, not everyone who voted for delays really appreciated how long and expensive they would be. It's a bit like Brexit, seemed like a good idea until it actually happened.

Anyway, this is going off topic so enough about ship transfers.

Do you really think the result would have been different to the 70%/30% split if more people voted? Because I don't think it would have.
Stop blaming people when it wasn't their fault.
 
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As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, for Mobius to continue at it's current growth it needs at least 2 things to happen...

1. A server enforced no fire rule, as relying on peoples goodwill/honesty when signing up doesn't always work
2. The current 15k per group limit needs to be lifted, as we're now at the point where Mobius has 30k members, so we are already having to skim off the inactive users to avoid creating a 3rd group! Either that or just turn Mobius into the official PVE mode which would be awesome.

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Well I didn't get an email and I've had the game for 18 months, so where was my email? Clearly not everyone got one. And equally, not everyone who voted for delays really appreciated how long and expensive they would be. It's a bit like Brexit, seemed like a good idea until it actually happened.

Anyway, this is going off topic so enough about ship transfers.
Off topic OP, but Brexit is still a good idea.

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Most nonsense idea evva!

Well best you give good reasons and arguments rather than one line comments that add nothing.
 
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