Inconsistent gameplay, arbitrary rules.

[Iori]

Something I discovered just today when assaulting bases.

Turrets, skimmers and goliaths don't follow the same rules for targeting, it has nothing to do with heat.
Emissive munitions don't work.
Not even when they fire their weapons they become visible to target.
It is only possible to target them when their shots or missiles hit you.

Doesn't sound like something important, but this kind of arbitrary inconsistency in the very rules of the game really breaks the suspension of disbelief.

I spent the whole day trying to give Emissive munitions to one of my lasers to be able to target those defenses.

My sensations by the end of the day were:
-I wasted my time doing something that would be cool and should have worked but it did not.
-Discouragement to try new things, really, if the game doesn't respect its own rules, there is no room at all for creativity.
-Carpal tunnel syndrome

Why have all this huge sandbox, if its just gonna be a lie?

"Blaze your own trail" but only within the limits of what we allow you to.

 

[RadActiveLobster]

They removed the ability for ships to target Skimmers to try to force you into the SRV since it's easier to destroy them with ships.

You use to be able to target them.

 

[Chris Simon]

"Blaze your own trail" but only within the limits of what we allow you to.

I always wanted to be a farmer. And I am really angry that this space simulator won't let me do that.
This is a rubbish sandbox.

Well duh. It's a computer program. It will always have limits. Some are made in sake of better gameplay, some to discourage exploits,...
Computer program by definition will always be basically just a long list of rules.

 

[Drelthar]

The OP has a very good point really.

It is entirely inconistent, though I understand the developers were trying to allow themselves to balance this element of gameplay more easily.


The problem is, this actually removed gameplay.

There's little use in having a wingmate there giving air support to your SRV...

What would have been a better plan, is:

Allow SRVs to use a synthesis type from common elements that grants them emissive munitions that work against ground targets.

Then SRVs could paint targets so air support ships could take them down.

 

[Iori]

I always wanted to be a farmer. And I am really angry that this space simulator won't let me do that.
This is a rubbish sandbox.

Well duh. It's a computer program. It will always have limits. Some are made in sake of better gameplay, some to discourage exploits,...
Computer program by definition will always be basically just a long list of rules.

Devs want me to go shoot things in an SRV instead of my ship, and betray the principle of "Blaze your own trail", the very rules of the game, and common sense.

WHY?

What do they gain?

Why cause frustration forcing players to play in ways they don't want to? This is stupid even in linear games, let alone something like this.

I understand that rocket did way too much damage and made it trivial, but why breaking the other methods too?

Devs: "Hey, fight with the SRV, is awesome, look here, you have to do this, do it this way"
Me: "No, I don't like SRV combat, I spent a thousand hours to have my own ship the way I want to and I find the SRV combat tedious"
Devs: "Well, you are out of luck pal, you have to like it the way it is and play however we say you should, but don't forget that this game is about Blazing your own trail"
Me: "Oh, I get it now, my trail is leading me to other games where I can actually choose how I want to do things, cya"

 

[Iori]

I always wanted to be a farmer. And I am really angry that this space simulator won't let me do that.
This is a rubbish sandbox.

Not equivalent, they would have to spend hours to program a way to be a farmer.
In this case, they spent hours in order to prevent you from playing in a way the game already supported.

But yeah "being able to target things with the targeting function of my space ship in this space sim" = "wanting to be a farmer in a space sim".

Well duh. It's a computer program. It will always have limits. Some are made in sake of better gameplay, some to discourage exploits,...
Computer program by definition will always be basically just a long list of rules.

To prevent the rocket exploits they added the point defense to the base that was enough and it makes sense within the game rules.
and "Better gameplay", I don't see how limiting your options to two frustrating ones is "better".

 

[ShimEnki]

This level of inconsistency is wayyy beyond addressment when this team cannot even leave the simple quiet mission board alone with out nerf hammering it to smithereens and not recognize the in game inconsistency and impact on many players. Its becoming more than a tad alarming.

 

[Bertrand Du Guesclin]

Yes it's annoying to not be able to target Sentries. This was changed to make ground attack more challenging, previously you could just fly over the base and strip it clean of any defense, then land and scan the data point unopposed.

So now, sentries are hard to target, the reason being their tiny heat signature. Goliaths are a lot larger, and maybe should be treated like a ship in that regard.

Anyways, it's still possible to attack a base, and do "Kill Sentry" missions only using a ship, you just have to use fixed lasers, or turrets in fixed firing mode.
Stay at a distance, clear up the turrets, using the sound feedback to know if you're hitting.
Then close the distance, and snipe the sentries at closer range. They are usually moving rather slowly, and they take 3/4 class 1 pulse laser shots. Goliaths are even easier to snipe.

It takes a bit more work, but it's doable.
You can even skip the turrets if your ship is small enough to hide between buildings.

edit : I didn't mention missiles, they are very effective to land shots in the general area of a sentry, and kill it quickly.

 

[Phil^]

they went waaaay overboard in preventing them from being taken out through ramming by ships also.
Its all to force you into the SRV more than anything else. The 'stick' method rather than the carrot of making the srv gameplay more compelling.

 

[who?]

Well duh. It's a computer program. It will always have limits. Some are made in sake of better gameplay, some to discourage exploits,...
Computer program by definition will always be basically just a long list of rules.

Fair enough. But I'd rather they enforced that rule by buffing the anti-ship defences, rather than adding somewhat arbitrary scanner rules.

 

[Iori]

Yes it's annoying to not be able to target Sentries. This was changed to make ground attack more challenging, previously you could just fly over the base and strip it clean of any defense, then land and scan the data point unopposed.

So now, sentries are hard to target, the reason being their tiny heat signature. Goliaths are a lot larger, and maybe should be treated like a ship in that regard.

Anyways, it's still possible to attack a base, and do "Kill Sentry" missions only using a ship, you just have to use fixed lasers, or turrets in fixed firing mode.
Stay at a distance, clear up the turrets, using the sound feedback to know if you're hitting.
Then close the distance, and snipe the sentries at closer range. They are usually moving rather slowly, and they take 3/4 class 1 pulse laser shots. Goliaths are even easier to snipe.

It takes a bit more work, but it's doable.
You can even skip the turrets if your ship is small enough to hide between buildings.

edit : I didn't mention missiles, they are very effective to land shots in the general area of a sentry, and kill it quickly.

Not really, as I said before, it has nothing to do with heat signature, maybe thats the explanation, but it is not how the game works.

How do I know? Because You can only target the goliaths, not when they fire the missiles, but when they actually hit you.

Also, a bit cheap that emissive ammo doesn't have any effect on anything ground based.

 

[Mr_Foxhound]

Something I discovered just today when assaulting bases.

Turrets, skimmers and goliaths don't follow the same rules for targeting, it has nothing to do with heat.
Emissive munitions don't work.
Not even when they fire their weapons they become visible to target.
It is only possible to target them when their shots or missiles hit you.

Doesn't sound like something important, but this kind of arbitrary inconsistency in the very rules of the game really breaks the suspension of disbelief.

I spent the whole day trying to give Emissive munitions to one of my lasers to be able to target those defenses.

My sensations by the end of the day were:
-I wasted my time doing something that would be cool and should have worked but it did not.
-Discouragement to try new things, really, if the game doesn't respect its own rules, there is no room at all for creativity.
-Carpal tunnel syndrome

Why have all this huge sandbox, if its just gonna be a lie?

"Blaze your own trail" but only within the limits of what we allow you to.

this is it for the whole game really

 

[Chris Simon]

Fair enough. But I'd rather they enforced that rule by buffing the anti-ship defences, rather than adding somewhat arbitrary scanner rules.

I don't disagree.

 

[Dbrn47]

The diversity of minutiae on this forum is breath taking.

 

[Chris Simon]

The diversity of minutiae on this forum is breath taking.

That's planet Earth for ya. Welcome. Keep your head inside the train at all times.

 

[Bertrand Du Guesclin]

Not really, as I said before, it has nothing to do with heat signature, maybe thats the explanation, but it is not how the game works.

How do I know? Because You can only target the goliaths, not when they fire the missiles, but when they actually hit you.

Also, a bit cheap that emissive ammo doesn't have any effect on anything ground based.

You can also target the small ones when they hit you, but maybe only at a shorter range.

 

[Iori]

You can also target the small ones when they hit you, but maybe only at a shorter range.

Yes, but the point is, if it was heat signature, you should be able to target them when they fire, regardless if they hit you or not. Which means it is not following logical rules.

 

[tanman]

I think there is enough evidence just from obeverstation that Frontier Developments has not a clue on how to properly balance and design a video game. it shows.

 

[Bertrand Du Guesclin]

Yes, but the point is, if it was heat signature, you should be able to target them when they fire, regardless if they hit you or not. Which means it is not following the same logic rules.

Oh yeah, I agree with you about the lack of consistency. They should be treated as smaller ships, hence obey the same rules.

My first post above was only the "official" explanation as to why we can't target them, and then the tactic I use to work around that.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Devs want me to go shoot things in an SRV instead of my ship, and betray the principle of "Blaze your own trail", the very rules of the game, and common sense.

WHY?

What do they gain?

Why cause frustration forcing players to play in ways they don't want to? This is stupid even in linear games, let alone something like this.

I understand that rocket did way too much damage and made it trivial, but why breaking the other methods too?

It used to be insanely easy to take on bases from a ship. It wasn't just missiles (they were just the main problem). Any weapon was good for taking out skimmers and you could even go in low and ram them.

I'm not entirely happy with FD's "solution" and i would have preferred it to be less drastic, but hey ho.

However, not all is lost. You can still take out skimmers from your ship. Just requires a bit more skill and forethought. Targetting doesn't work, so you have to use manual aiming, which is a bit tricky with how your ship wobbles. AoE attacks still do damage. You could look into fragment canons for skimmer work or non-seeking missiles.

They didn't nerf it as bad as most people think.

Hell, i once took on a base with a dozen skimmers including a couple of goliaths from my ship with just lasers. It was a bit of a pain, i wasn't prepared for it, i just happened to take the mission in the wrong ship and couldn't be bothered changing. Still managed it.