There is no grind

[unity100]

Consider this: folk are always complaining about the grind and how un-fun it is. I, and others, have found a way to make the game much more fun and enjoyable.

End result: we're enjoying the game a lot more than the people who are complaining. Who's better off?

that you are having fun and you are finding the grind easier the second time you are starting from scratch does not mean there is no grind.

you already did the grind. the first time. now you know how to avoid extending the grind longer than optimal, because you know how to do things optimally. that you may be having fun while doing the same things the 2nd time does not mean you are not grinding.

you are.

you will have to amass a certain amount of money, rank a certain rank before you can get certain ships and progress to whatever you want to do. you wont stay in a sidewinder forever because it is a fun thing to do. you will move to vulture because you have to - otherwise you wont be able to do certain things in the game. similarly you will move to bigger ships when you want to do certain content, because you have to - since various gameplay elements mandate you have a bigger or stronger ship - or even visit certain systems.

 

[S.at]

You misunderstand. I'm not trying to convince myself or others that there is no grind. I'm simply saying that I found it grindy, and by resetting my save - and, simultaneously - my approach to the game, I found ways to make previous grindy activities much less so.

Consider this: folk are always complaining about the grind and how un-fun it is. I, and others, have found a way to make the game much more fun and enjoyable.

End result: we're enjoying the game a lot more than the people who are complaining. Who's better off?

I honestly couldn't care less if other people are making themselves miserable by playing the game. I don't fully understand why they'd do it, especially when there are threads like this one which are essentially a quick-start guide to enjoying it more with a flick of the brain, but I guess that's a sign of the age we're in. This post is simply saying that I've found another way, I'm enjoying it a lot more, and my life is better for it (in terms of having something fun to do).

You have adapted, I understand. Found a way to live with it) But that's not the point. The point is that if you look from particular to general, we can see that grind is an essential attribute placed in the foundation of game design. This is what frustrates many players. You can come up with ways to resist or adapt, as you did, but that doesn't change the fact.

 

[Cageman]

The "grind" is completely in the eye of the beholder.

The problem is when someone sees something and say "I want that!", and then force themselves to catch that goal as quickly as possible... That will become the grind.

Instead... relax and do things in due time; allow things to take time and you will not feel it as if you are grinding.

 

[Garbarrage]

The "grind" is completely in the eye of the beholder.

The problem is when someone sees something and say "I want that!", and then force themselves to catch that goal as quickly as possible... That will become the grind.

Instead... relax and do things in due time; allow things to take time and you will not feel it as if you are grinding.

How do you propose one does that in PP?

 

[Vandaahl]

How do you propose one does that in PP?

By not doing PP?

 

[Daffan]

I did that with my previous CMDR, and yes - it felt like a grind. That's why I reset my save and resolved to play it a different way...the point being to find the fun again.

Don't play certain parts of the game and there is no grind. Ok

 

[Sara Lyons]

I still can't play E: D for longer than one or two weeks in a row ( and haven't recovered from the last play session 6 month ago).

In my view, most of Elites activities are nothing more than excessive grinds, with not enough activity options to switch between so it does feel less so to me. Sad, but that's the way it feels to me.

Same. If I'm playing Elite, I guarantee you I have something else going on on my other monitor. If I only had one screen, I doubt I would be in Elite much any more.

 

[Cageman]

How do you propose one does that in PP?

You have a point there... Powerplay needs a huge overhaul. I tried it and it was awefull.

The rest of the game though, engineers included, are, at least from my viewpoint, what I stated above.

 

[Daffan]

I still can't play E: D for longer than one or two weeks in a row ( and haven't recovered from the last play session 6 month ago).

In my view, most of Elites activities are nothing more than excessive grinds, with not enough activity options to switch between so it does feel less so to me. Sad, but that's the way it feels to me.

Same.

PowerPlay for instance sounds cool in design, but it all boils down to logging into solo to grind npcs forever to make the fastest progress. That turns me off so fast.

 

[digitalscream]

Don't play certain parts of the game and there is no grind. Ok

OK, I get it. You're going to do all sorts of mental gymnastics to twist the point I'm trying to make in order to make yourself right. To be clear - I am not avoiding any type of gameplay at all, the only change I've made is my approach to it all.

Carry on.

 

[Garbarrage]

You have a point there... Powerplay needs a huge overhaul. I tried it and it was awefull.

The rest of the game though, engineers included, are, at least from my viewpoint, what I stated above.

Repped for reason/logic/honesty.

I think there are needless QoL facets of Engineers that create grind needlessly if you want to access the content though.

 

[BigZiggyHD]

The point is that the game did not create the grind and it certainly does not make you do it. Grinds are all self imposed. As someone who burned out the last 4 ranks to get the Cutter a few months ago it is all self imposed. The problem is in everyone thinking that they need everything. I think if you asked DB or MB 2 years ago whether or not they thought we'd all have not just Cutters, Condas, and Vettes but multiple multi-million credit ships in our hangers they'd probably think you were crazy. I think they would only expect the majority of the player base to be past the ASPx.

As soon as you become comfortable with the fact that you don't need that ship, or that mod, or that engineer, that rank, etc and to just play the game for what is in front of you; you will be much happier. Just like in real life if you strive to just work for wealth, fame, success, power whatever you will sacrifice other things to achieve that. This is just an age old life balance argument.

 

[ROSS-128]

In terms of rank at least, it would be a lot easier to rank naturally if military ranking could be earned doing military activities. But that would make too much sense I guess.

 

[Dbrn47]

The point is that the game did not create the grind and it certainly does not make you do it. Grinds are all self imposed. As someone who burned out the last 4 ranks to get the Cutter a few months ago it is all self imposed. The problem is in everyone thinking that they need everything. I think if you asked DB or MB 2 years ago whether or not they thought we'd all have not just Cutters, Condas, and Vettes but multiple multi-million credit ships in our hangers they'd probably think you were crazy. I think they would only expect the majority of the player base to be past the ASPx.

As soon as you become comfortable with the fact that you don't need that ship, or that mod, or that engineer, that rank, etc and to just play the game for what is in front of you; you will be much happier. Just like in real life if you strive to just work for wealth, fame, success, power whatever you will sacrifice other things to achieve that. This is just an age old life balance argument.

There is grind, it's designed into the game to both create sense of worth and to extend the life of the game while they continue to develop content. This is the nature of games that do not have an ending. People deny the existence because they are so afraid that if they feel the grind, they will no longer enjoy the game and stop playing. To them, grind means nothing more than boring repetition and that can't possibly be enjoyable. To people like me, I know it's there, but I still enjoy the game, I still play and engage in it. When it gets too heavy, I play something else for a bit, but I come back. Sometimes I just get bored no matter how good or bad a game is. I have become comfortable with the fact that without a story line to follow, without complex and rich environments full of depth, the repetition and the goals the repetition leads to are very apparent. I have become comfortable with the fact that the grindy nature of a lot of open ended, especially sandbox games, is a necessity for the most part. While there is no end to the game play, if the goals are too quick to finish, the players are quick to leave and the developers are further pressured to create content faster and it is already hard to keep up with the the consumers.

There is no point in trying to deny the existence, the waving of the hand and saying "It's just in your miiiinnnddd....". The people that see it do and the people that don't, don't. It's always been a ridiculous discussion that borders on the same level as religion. You aren't going to convince anyone, you're just going to repeat yourself until you want to pull your hair out... even from the spots that hurt the worst.

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In terms of rank at least, it would be a lot easier to rank naturally if military ranking could be earned doing military activities. But that would make too much sense I guess.

Agreed.

 

[BigZiggyHD]

We are really debating definitions here. Grind = Work needed to achieve a result (by your own admission meant to show a value of worth) I don't disagree that you must do work to achieve these things the grind as it's thought of is created by the player when they decide the result they want is needed now which was never the intention of the game. Its a time argument the amount of work spread out over months doesn't look like/feel like much but when you try and squeeze it all into a week it can be overwhelming. Case in point cramming knowledge for a midterm/final in college/university if you learned it properly over time putting in a little here and there as opposed to trying to learn a semesters worth of material in a night.

Now if you were to argue the rewards are underwhelming and not worth the work I would agree with you but alas that is the sacrifice we make for gameplay balance.

My point is the grind as defined is a result of an impatient player deciding he/she needs something now.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Heh, very clickbaity OP.

I would say there is the potential for grind if you focus on getting X as quickly as possible and forget to have fun. Then yes, the game can be as grindy as you want. Or you can focus on doing what you enjoy, then any grind you happen to be doing is incidental. I mean, when we travelled to Beagle Point, you could say that was a grind. Thousands upon thousands of jumps... but we enjoyed it, even if we all call back with +1000 insanity points.

There was a post on the Steam forums just the other day. Something like: I hate grinding. I wanted X. I grinded for it. I didn't enjoy it. This game has a terrible grind.

Its the mentality of some people i have problem with, not the game.

When the game launched i thought, well, its going to be at least a year before I can afford an Anaconda and probably at least a year or more before i'm Elite in anything.

And i was right on both counts (made Elite in Exploration exactly 1 year after Gamma went live - to the day), and while of course i've had my frustrations with the game, overall i've enjoyed it, and any grind has been minimal or incidental.

But then, you get people who expect to get the Anaconda in a couple of weeks, grind like crazy, and complain about the grind......

I wonder what these people plan to do in the game once they get everything they want. My guess is many will say the game is rubbish, its nothing but a grind, and then quit.

Others might say, having X will allow me to do Y, which is a serious flaw in thinking. You can do anything in this game without getting the big ships or amassing massive credits. The only place where having tons of credits is really essenital is for PvP. I can understand them grinding, they need credits, they need maxed out ships with top level engineer upgrades. But for the rest of us.... do what you enjoy, because grinding is a sure way to become bored with the game.

 

[Dbrn47]

We are really debating definitions here. Grind = Work needed to achieve a result (by your own admission meant to show a value of worth) I don't disagree that you must do work to achieve these things the grind as it's thought of is created by the player when they decide the result they want is needed now which was never the intention of the game. Its a time argument the amount of work spread out over months doesn't look like/feel like much but when you try and squeeze it all into a week it can be overwhelming. Case in point cramming knowledge for a midterm/final in college/university if you learned it properly over time putting in a little here and there as opposed to trying to learn a semesters worth of material in a night.

Now if you were to argue the rewards are underwhelming and not worth the work I would agree with you but alas that is the sacrifice we make for gameplay balance.

My point is the grind as defined is a result of an impatient player deciding he/she needs something now.

If it wasn't a development concept it wouldn't exist in so many games. They may not refer to it as grind when they develop it, but that's what it is. The term stems from real life repetition. Doing the daily grind.. That pattern of behavior we exhibit to either live or reach our goals in life. It's not fun (it can be), it's not boring (it can be), but really it just is. Game play loops develop, they are associated with goals, it takes much time and effort to complete, people engage daily in one way or another, stories or mechanics aren't deep enough, grind is felt, forum complaints are levied. It's not a result of impatient player anything, it's an achievable goal that is attractive to the player. Wanting to achieve a goal is not the same as wanting something now. Wanting to achieve a goal in a reasonable amount of time OR at least have a blast doing so (it's a game after all) is not the same as wanting something now.

What you have done with your definition is lump people into this neat little group with the "instant gratification crowd" and frankly I'm not sure how you can both be someone who is willing to grind and someone who wants it now. If I want it now, why would I spend the next week or more trying to get it? That's the opposite of getting it now. The negativity surrounding the term grind comes from the fact that the repetition becomes intolerably boring, due to the game play involved not being deep enough or not varied enough. Personally, I can see grinds regardless of depth or variation. So it's not a matter of that or fun for me. I'm going to have fun regardless of the grind.

Diablo has grind, I had fun. Overwatch has a grind, I had fun. MMOs have grinds, I had fun. Dark Souls has grinds, I had fun. Grind describes purposely designed repetition aimed at fulfilling goals and it doesn't become negative until the repetition isn't fun anymore, due to it being a game and needing to provide entertainment. Design fun and deep game play loops and people won't complain about any grind involved, they may even join you and pretend it doesn't exist. Keep the design shallow and monotonous and people, at varied amounts of time, will begin to become unhappy. It's the same in real life, people get bored with their monotonous jobs... Other people are resigned to believe it's part of life and are more resolute toward their daily repetition.

The best thing you can do for these conversations, if you want to engage, is find out why people feel various parts of the game feel as grindy as they do. Figure out what would resolve the problem, just like anything else in the game really. The worst thing you can do is simply blame it on the player and tell them this isn't the game for them. I think you will find that a lot of people have ideas and aren't just out to complain without hope for happiness. The ones that are, can simply be ignored and don't need further conversation. Ideas drive development, don't be someone who stifles them. Complaints used to be met with "Well, how would you fix it?" not "Ugh, you're just a crazy instant gratification guy that doesn't know how to play the game", not sure what happened.

 

[CMDR-AD]

Reputation to the original post. The approach mentioned is quite similar to my own.

First and foremost... I engage in one of the gameplay lanes that appeals to me. Today, I flew my Cobra Mk3 and ran some data missions aiming to build some local faction reputation, and maybe stumble into a "Tip-Off" mission. Saw a cargo mission that I liked, ran that, too. I collected about 16 mission rewards commodities. I checked to see if any could work on Blueprints useful to me. They weren't, so I sold them all. If they had been usable I'd have jumped over and modded something, then headed back home.

Also spent some time out in my Keelback/SLF/SRV explorer on icy/rocky moon. Deep in some mist filled canyons, checking out the geography and hunting for some geysers. No luck today, but I'll be out at it again soon.

I just play what appeals, maximize my enjoyment of this great space game, and take things as they come. I started playing this way after my CMDR reset when 2.0 released, best thing I've done.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

When I decide: OK, let's do a bit of superpower repution. I'll run a couple of missions every time I see some and after a week I'll have a bit of progress. And then after a week I see no progress at all I call that bug/grind/frustrating/waste of time. Whatever I feel after having some bull like that.

 

[BigZiggyHD]

Dbrn47

I am not trying to push buttons with you. Please take a breath and can we converse about this. You are deciding not to look through the other side of the window. We are arguing over trying to prove the same point but I think our solutions are what is differing. It sounds like your problem is with the work ("grind") my problem is with the underwhelming results you get from said work. I am not saying that there isn't an issue that needs to be addressed.