Because even after the fiasco of heat weapons there are still some "clutch" mods that are a must have no matter what you situation is. Exploring? Increased FSD distance. Trading? Increased FSD distance. Combat? Increased FSD distance. Power plant I believe is mostly the same although it probably has a bit more diversity. Then the hull and shield mods, unless you desperately need power then you probably are going with all out increased resistance and not something specialised. You get the idea, there aren't too many of these must have mods but there are some.
Weren't the engineers ment to bring diversity?
- Thread starter Comrade Error
- Start date
Philip Coutts
Volunteer Moderator
I guess one of the issues with any game is there is always a "meta" game. Frontiers challenge is to try and balance things out so that lots of things have value. For example for an avid explorer you can trim weight off a lot of stuff to get even further with your FSD but altering your FSD will always be the biggest bang for your buck. It's difficult to find the right balance and build a game that doesn't have a "meta" build for every profession.
Diversity? Who wants diversity when you can Min/Max?
Granted, when it comes to FSD mods Increased Jump Range is pretty much the de facto mod to have. Shielded FSD might be more popular if FSD's ever got shot out, but outside PvP that's pretty rare. For pirating NPC's you think this and thrusters would be primary targets, but that just doesn't seem to be how people want to do things.
And Faster Boot Sequence doesn't do what you might think - it still charges just as long, it's the cooldown that gets reduced, so this isn't particularly popular or terribly useful either. So what does that leave? Yep, range.
The same holds true for many other mods as well - some are just more useful than others. Those geared towards PvP are only going to enjoy any usage for those who engage in PvP. Those with less-than-utilitarian functions are just not going to get used.
The Reinforced Kill Warrant Scanner, for example - who has ever had their KWS shot out? Who wants it to have more mass? Lightweight is pretty much all that's left that is actually of any use.
- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -
Faster FSD Charge might become just as popular as increased range if it were implemented.
Granted, when it comes to FSD mods Increased Jump Range is pretty much the de facto mod to have. Shielded FSD might be more popular if FSD's ever got shot out, but outside PvP that's pretty rare. For pirating NPC's you think this and thrusters would be primary targets, but that just doesn't seem to be how people want to do things.
And Faster Boot Sequence doesn't do what you might think - it still charges just as long, it's the cooldown that gets reduced, so this isn't particularly popular or terribly useful either. So what does that leave? Yep, range.
The same holds true for many other mods as well - some are just more useful than others. Those geared towards PvP are only going to enjoy any usage for those who engage in PvP. Those with less-than-utilitarian functions are just not going to get used.
The Reinforced Kill Warrant Scanner, for example - who has ever had their KWS shot out? Who wants it to have more mass? Lightweight is pretty much all that's left that is actually of any use.
- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -
Faster FSD Charge might become just as popular as increased range if it were implemented.
Guess it depends on what you mean with diversity. Before 2.1, half the exploration ships where identical duplicates of each other. Now thats no longer the case, each ship is now unique in its own little way.
They did diversify....
between those that can't be bothered to mod every last bit of their ships with RNG and those who enjoy min-maxing.
between those that can't be bothered to mod every last bit of their ships with RNG and those who enjoy min-maxing.
Last edited by a moderator:
Now they are just almost identical duplicates of each other. With slight 1-2% differences.
[hehe]
Arguendo
Volunteer Moderator
That's true, but only due to the RNG of Engineers. The modules and the Engineering Mods applied are pretty much the same all over, which is the OPs point I believe.
With the new Engineers that is really obvious, as they pretty much do shielded, lightweight, or reinforced anything. Where are the extended range, or decreased scan-time scanners? Those would actually be useful! And then you'd have a choice to make; do I want to be able to scan things from further away, or do I want to be able to scan them faster?
The new Engineers had a lot of potential, but when they pretty much come with the three options they add so little, as the only one really useful is lightweight. The others are silly imho.
I'll buy a season 3 pass right now if FD confirm it'll have an engineer that reduces sensor weight.
Now they are just almost identical duplicates of each other. With slight 1-2% differences.
[hehe]
Exactly, its due to RNG, and matters relatively little (which does conflict a bit with the usual "its all RNG!" stuff). Which is how I pictured it from the start. If I were FD I'd reduce the 'average' boost compared with non-mods, and keep the variation small. Remove the 'mission only' stuff. Add cargo/mat/data storage in stations. There, done.
My trading Python has reduced FSD cool down time, not increased FSD range.
Yes, I have to make more jumps but every time I get interdicted by an NPC, I can jump out again whilst he is still making his "I looked for you a lomg time" speech. He doesn't even get time to deploy weapons.
Arguendo
Volunteer Moderator
For NPCs I can definetely see how this could be useful, as they take their sweet time before starting to shoot. Against other players though...not so much
Afraid your mistaken here, this is not how the mod works. The 'Faster FSD boot sequence' reduces the time it takes for your FSD to come back online after being turned off, it does NOT reduce the time taken to charge the FSD for the next jump.
You state the problem fairly well. There is one upgrade that is just more desirable than the rest. For FSD it is range, for weapons it is damage.
The solution would be to remove the negative effects for the less desirable upgrades, and always always always have an increase in the most desired trait.
All weapon upgrades should increase damage, all FSD upgrades should increase range. But there still should be one upgrade that does it more than the rest.
So, in the case of FSD. Explorers would still go for the increased range, but traders might go for faster cooldown/charge up and combat pilots might go for the lower power draw.
In the case of weapons, explorers might go for lighter mounts and still get a boost to damage, where as combat pilots will go for the raw damage increase.
The solution would be to remove the negative effects for the less desirable upgrades, and always always always have an increase in the most desired trait.
All weapon upgrades should increase damage, all FSD upgrades should increase range. But there still should be one upgrade that does it more than the rest.
So, in the case of FSD. Explorers would still go for the increased range, but traders might go for faster cooldown/charge up and combat pilots might go for the lower power draw.
In the case of weapons, explorers might go for lighter mounts and still get a boost to damage, where as combat pilots will go for the raw damage increase.
... but... but... making them different in range and scan time could actually have been work... no way...
.
.
Nah. There would still be one "best" and that's it. That won't change things at all. What could really work would rather be something like this:
- Overcharged, which has virtually no disadvantage, actually gives only a moderate damage boost. Also its energy efficiency should still be reduced a bit.
- Efficient weapon should actually give much more damage compared to capacitor use.
- Short range blaster should give the most damage of them all, having only half the range is a high price for damage.
- Rapid fire should be close to short range blaster in terms of damage, but it should come at the price of very high power consumption.
.
Then everybody can pick his own poison. You have a fast and agile ship? Short range blaster. You have plenty of power spare? Rapid fire. Your capacitor always is at its limit? Efficient weapon. You want an allround upgrade? Overcharged.
.
For other things than weapons, such diversity would be a little harder to do, but for scanners for example it already was mentioned, that next to lightweight often range or speed would be welcome.
@OP - blanket statements just weaken credibility; you can make a case that Engineers didn't provide 'enough' diversity, or too much, or too little vs what you wished. All fair positions to take as that is simply an opinion.
But saying Engineers didn't increase diversity is factually incorrect and skews your OP by essentially denying the obvious -->
Pre-Engineers, whether you liked the state of those ships or not, whatever your opinion good or bad, it is a factual statement to say those ships were pure, 100% identical clones of every other ship of that class owned by every other player in ED universe. The only distinction or diversity was what 'build' a player used, otherwise every component of that 'build', every ship class was 100% identical.
With Engineers, whether you think the modules suck, are great, not implemented well, whatever - it's just a statement of fact that ships are now differentiated not just by the component choice (e.g. build variety of that ship class), but the individual parameters of the components themselves.
It's quite true to say for some it may very well be the FOTM or 'most popular' choice of one specific derivative of that engineered/custom component - but the very fact that choice exists means ships are more diverse simply because in addition to class and build, we now have class, build, and customized components decisions.
Just because many choose the same choice does not mean diversity does not exist; it simply means within that increased selection of possibilities, people are gravitating towards a common choice, but invariably as in all human endeavors, some people don't go with the flow. Pre-Engineers, there was literally no choice at the component level; with Engineers there is.
Your issue seems more to be that you don't like people making generally the same customization selection, which is a different point than denying those additional choices exist at all.
But saying Engineers didn't increase diversity is factually incorrect and skews your OP by essentially denying the obvious -->
Pre-Engineers, whether you liked the state of those ships or not, whatever your opinion good or bad, it is a factual statement to say those ships were pure, 100% identical clones of every other ship of that class owned by every other player in ED universe. The only distinction or diversity was what 'build' a player used, otherwise every component of that 'build', every ship class was 100% identical.
With Engineers, whether you think the modules suck, are great, not implemented well, whatever - it's just a statement of fact that ships are now differentiated not just by the component choice (e.g. build variety of that ship class), but the individual parameters of the components themselves.
It's quite true to say for some it may very well be the FOTM or 'most popular' choice of one specific derivative of that engineered/custom component - but the very fact that choice exists means ships are more diverse simply because in addition to class and build, we now have class, build, and customized components decisions.
Just because many choose the same choice does not mean diversity does not exist; it simply means within that increased selection of possibilities, people are gravitating towards a common choice, but invariably as in all human endeavors, some people don't go with the flow. Pre-Engineers, there was literally no choice at the component level; with Engineers there is.
Your issue seems more to be that you don't like people making generally the same customization selection, which is a different point than denying those additional choices exist at all.
it's a bit more complicated/divers.
let's look at shields. i have on my combat ships
- 2 reeinforced. one is a d-class reeinforced (speed courier), one an a-class of a ship that can't max out resistances.
- 3 thermal. 2 bi-weave, 1 a-class. again depends on ship/base strenght.
let's look at thrusters. again combat:
- 2 of my combat ships have level 5 dirty drive tuning. those that don't have a great straight line speed or run cool running weapons
- 3 have clean drive tuning. my courier, because it gets to hot without. my FDL, because it gets to fast for pve - behind 490 m/s boost only your turning cycles get larger... my DBS, because i run it with two railguns, and i can't stand additional heat...
there is a whole thread on ROF/overchaged/efficient/focussed pulses on these forums.
yes, it is more divers.
let's look at shields. i have on my combat ships
- 2 reeinforced. one is a d-class reeinforced (speed courier), one an a-class of a ship that can't max out resistances.
- 3 thermal. 2 bi-weave, 1 a-class. again depends on ship/base strenght.
let's look at thrusters. again combat:
- 2 of my combat ships have level 5 dirty drive tuning. those that don't have a great straight line speed or run cool running weapons
- 3 have clean drive tuning. my courier, because it gets to hot without. my FDL, because it gets to fast for pve - behind 490 m/s boost only your turning cycles get larger... my DBS, because i run it with two railguns, and i can't stand additional heat...
there is a whole thread on ROF/overchaged/efficient/focussed pulses on these forums.
yes, it is more divers.
you're just spinning the issue. Your arguement can easily be spun the same way for prior to engineers.
Accept it, the only thing that is preventing the "pure, 100% identical clones" in ships post Engineers is the fact that now those stats are lathered with RNG
FSD drives are basically the worst example of diversity because there's only really a single decent option for them. Most of the other modules that can be modded have a reasonable amount of variety in what is possible, all with their own specific niches and all with their own advantages and disadvantages.
If FSD drives had option for increased fuel burn per jump (giving larger increases in jump range but at the cost of reduced fuel efficiency) and an option for increased supercruise performance, suddenly we wouldn't be seeing 99% of players going for the same option.
If FSD drives had option for increased fuel burn per jump (giving larger increases in jump range but at the cost of reduced fuel efficiency) and an option for increased supercruise performance, suddenly we wouldn't be seeing 99% of players going for the same option.