Same old song about cheaters

[DaveB]

Indeed Dave - but for some people the sheer annoyance and irritation they can cause is their motivator. Nothing annoys chest-beating pew-pews as much as someone who combat-logs on them for the lulz. It works them up into a frenzy something fierce - and then they say / do rather silly things and provide even more lulz. My favourite example is still that person on Xbox who somehow managed to get 400 different people so incensed they said all sorts of things - and he was laughing all the way.

Indeed - it could be said that it's the only form of real PVP in Elite.

I don't think it's a good thing - so there really needs to be a good way of ensuring that the best gameplay is to be found in the game itself and keeping everyone happily playing. Of course, it's been discussed to death for years, and we are no further on

Oh, those guys... well, being totally selfish in my attitude here, but the amount of annoyance and irritation they can cause me is quite limited.

Pirates don't irritate me at all, the poor dears do have to eat, after all, and if they happen to be surviving on the crumbs from my table today, well that's just how it goes.

What I'll call the "reasonable PvPer" doesn't bother me either. If I was flying something that they could take out without flexing a single skill, they wouldn't have jumped me in the first place. I tend to meet these guys when I'm also loaded for bear and they may have the advantage but I can still put up a decent fight. I'll do my best to give them exactly that and I've even managed to hand out a few unpleasant surprises myself in those encounters. There's a level of respect there, you know?

The guys you mention, the ones zooming around the galaxy flaunting their overcompensated battlewagon simply oozing with whatever happens to be today's Engineered-Meta-Of-DOOM and seeking to just mess up everyone elses day for the lulz, well yeah, they can get me ONCE. One rebuy screen of the several I can afford then I switch modes before undocking and they are gone. Even at events where interaction with other players is part of the experience, there's still plenty of groups for me to choose from where other players can be found but the irritants aren't. And you know what? That peeves them almost as much as combat-logging on them, because they just KNOW I'm merrily floating through the space they are patrolling waving a middle finger from the other instance, and I still get to play by FDs rules - and not CL-ing IS an FD rule, even though it's one they can't enforce well. I'd say the balance of irritation tends to generally work out in my favor with these guys

 

[Kerrash]

The game is not competitive, right up to the moment when it is. It's either a single player game or -sometimes- a multi-player competitive game, or somewhere in between. That's what blurs the lines a bit and makes it more complex.

Someone who plays exclusively in Solo and combat logs because they don't want to have to do a 4,000LS SC again is cheating nobody but themselves and affecting nobody. If they brag to their friends about how much they've got, then it's empty and meaningless (and in my mind dishonest), but nobody is getting annoyed.

They could even form the habit of completely negating risk but still using high risk strategies; successfully hauling in an unshielded ship for maximum profit in a manner impossible if the game were played 'properly'. They're still only cheating themselves, but they are also forming risk-averse habits, where they no longer see the game as 'dangerous' and so the line of what is cheating and not moves further, in response to the game ever being 'unfair' to them. Still all well and good: They only cheat themselves (That soesn't mean the exploit should not be fixed, though.) They have a diminished game, but don't really see it as cheating. People don't like to call themselves cheats, so it's masked by justifying it as 'being clever' and 'outsmarting the game' or whatever.

But with the switch of a mode, suddenly they are online with others. Suddenly they can combat log with a hold full of Imperial Slaves whenever interdicted by a player. Suddenly it becomes cheating, because it is competitive. Sure: One can say 'a combat log is a win' if one is a pure PvP player and out for blood, and that's ok (in fact, I'm pretty sure it's an attitude that PvP players have to embrace, lest they simply get so frustrated that they leave the game), but I'm pretty sure someone earning a legitimate crust from 'honest' piracy would call it cheating when the person disconnects three times in a row.

All very good points that I agree with.

I would add however, that if people are trying to avoid or find fair competition in Open play; they shouldn't be there.
Anyone using open play must be prepared for the losses and consequences involved.

 

[Siranui]

All very good points that I agree with.

I would add however, that if people are trying to avoid or find fair competition in Open play; they shouldn't be there.
Anyone using open play must be prepared for the losses and consequences involved.

Quite. If you plan on grabbing your chips and legging it from the table when someone drops a straight flush and is about to take them away, you should not be sitting there in the first place. Go play for matchsticks somewhere.

That said, the person doing the running in this case would see themselves entirely justified in doing so if the rest of the table ganged up on him and kept changing rules, to the extent that it was clearly a rigged game they could not win. I'm not sure where I'm going with that analogy, but I suspect many combat loggers see themselves as the 'lesser' cheats. They're wrong, but they don't see it that way. That's a major part of the issue: It is not seen as cheating by the people who do it, because they point to the behaviour of others - or the game itself - and cry 'foul'.

tl;dr: Yes. I agree.

 

[CMDR - TRIPPY]

They should just make it where when you log off your ship is still in game for like 2 min. Forcing players to not combat log and go to a station/planet to log off safely.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Y'know.. all this just makes me want to buy a sidewinder and cruise around in Open just find some of you, so you can interdict me, and while I fight the interdiction I also activate Self-Destruct.
For some reason, I think it would make me laugh.

 

[sutex]

GOD here.. COMMANDANT ....Understatement NO 1


If your a HACK in game your a HACK in life....

 

[Fendalton]

Y'know.. all this just makes me want to buy a sidewinder and cruise around in Open just find some of you, so you can interdict me, and while I fight the interdiction I also activate Self-Destruct.
For some reason, I think it would make me laugh.

You can't activate SD while in SC.

 

[Comrade Error]

I am more interested in understanding how someone can cheat in a game where the only challenges are those you set for yourself.
There is no competition to win, therefore how can anyone cheat?

In real life there is no competition to win yet you can still break the rules can't you?

Or you could ask the devs instead as they put the rules there.

 

[Falcon_D]

Well I think Combat logging can be cut down pretty much by a lot once mode invasion gets solved. After all the root cause of most Combat logging is unwanted PvP. So solve the mode invasion (unwanted PvP) "cheating". And you can pretty much solve Combat logging.

As for the posters calling out Combat logging in solo can you please share the link where the NPCs are complaining about Combat logging. Cause I really fail to see the relevance of how this affects another player. And personally to me this bovine excrement statement is just a strawman.

P.S.: It is also interesting to note that most Combat logging salt threads are brought up by players associated with known and self-declared, mode invading, griefer ganking groups.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

You can't activate SD while in SC.

Submit + Self Destruct = Happy now?

 

[Comrade Error]

Well I think Combat logging can be cut down pretty much by a lot once mode invasion gets solved. After all the root cause of most Combat logging is unwanted PvP. So solve the mode invasion (unwanted PvP) "cheating". And you can pretty much solve Combat logging.

As for the posters calling out Combat logging in solo can you please share the link where the NPCs are complaining about Combat logging. Cause I really fail to see the relevance of how this affects another player. And personally to me this bovine excrement statement is just a strawman.

P.S.: It is also interesting to note that most Combat logging salt threads are brought up by players associated with known and self-declared, mode invading, griefer ganking groups.

What has mode invasion have to do with combat logging in open?

Sure. https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/105778-“Combat-Logging”-Update

Although this is flagged primarily as a multiplayer concern, the issues (and solutions) apply equally to the single player game.

Not the NPCs complaining but rather the people who created them.

I don't think you know what a strawman means.

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Submit + Self Destruct = Happy now?

You'll probably be dead far before that.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Well I think Combat logging can be cut down pretty much by a lot once mode invasion gets solved. After all the root cause of most Combat logging is unwanted PvP. So solve the mode invasion (unwanted PvP) "cheating". And you can pretty much solve Combat logging.

As for the posters calling out Combat logging in solo can you please share the link where the NPCs are complaining about Combat logging. Cause I really fail to see the relevance of how this affects another player. And personally to me this bovine excrement statement is just a strawman.

P.S.: It is also interesting to note that most Combat logging salt threads are brought up by players associated with known and self-declared, mode invading, griefer ganking groups.

There have been a few posters who have openly admitted to combat logging in Solo, basically under the idea that they shouldn't have to deal with NPC's.
Sounds a bit mad but it did happen. Probably farming Sothis for the cash as well.
It really shouldn't surprise people that this kinda thing goes on, it happens in every game.
Path of least resistance.

There will be no names because of forum rules.

 

[Falcon_D]

What has mode invasion have to do with combat logging in open?

Sure. https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/105778-“Combat-Logging”-Update



Not the NPCs complaining but rather the people who created them.

I don't think you know what a strawman means.

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You'll probably be dead far before that.

Personally I've seen people misinterpret Strawman quiet a lot in this forums and have their own opinion of what it means based on how the look at an argument as seen in the case above.

If the people who cheated them are complaining then I assume there is something wrong here and I doubt it's Combat logging related.

As for mode invasion, that's where most most unwanted PvP occurs. And as I said unwanted PvP is basically the root cause of most combat logging. If the OP was only talking about Open and how to solve CL in open fine. But solving this kind of problem affects both Open and Group.

 

[Verson Geterix]

There should be a counter on the stats (or even dash) showing the amount of combat logs right at the top, this is not the count down but unexpected log off.

This would then show up for everyone and become an embarrassment when showing stats.

I agree that open is not perfect or safe for non PVP players.

Unless the combatlogger uses the menu system to exit, it's not possible for the system to differentiate between a combat logger and a player who's suffered a network drop out. It's an age old problem I'm afraid. It can't be fixed in any game and no dev team will even give a moments thought. It's one of the vagaries that comes with the internet component technologies we use.

 

[Riverside]

Unless the combatlogger uses the menu system to exit, it's not possible for the system to differentiate between a combat logger and a player who's suffered a network drop out. It's an age old problem I'm afraid. It can't be fixed in any game and no dev team will even give a moments thought. It's one of the vagaries that comes with the internet component technologies we use.

I broadly agree with this, however this thread is just cyclic.

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The complainers have the power to be able to solve (or at least reduce) their own problem. I don't condone Combat Logging but neither do I see any benefit in insisting that people stay & play with another player when clearly they don't want to.

So if you want people to play with you (and any PvP pew pew gameplay kind of requires that they do) maybe play a little more nicely? A bitter pill to swallow, sure but it does rather seem to be an artificial problem, created by the players' unwillingness to compromise.

I wonder how many more pages until this comes around again?

 

[[VR] Merkir]

I will make a suggestion (knowing it will be instantly criticised because there's no way a solution can be found to satisfy everyone).

Any disconnection during PvP, whether deliberate or not, should make the disconnecting player pay a "Ship Lost Fine" equal to (100% - Hull%) of their insurance value, but only if their hull is less than all of their opponent(s) hull(s).

Example "Ship Lost Fine" fines are:
100% hull remaining = no cost
99% hull remaining = 1% of insurance value
50% hull remaining = 50% of insurance value
1% hull remaining = 99% of insurance value

Consequences of this (both good and bad):
- Combat loggers will experience some consequences for their actions.
- Their opponent will not feel quite as frustrated by the CL.
- If disconnection was not intentional, of course the disconnecting player is worse off, but at least the penalty is commensurate with their hull and therefore somewhat correlates to their standing in the combat. Note that they have to be losing the combat to receive the "Ship Lost Fine." And yes I do realise that disadvantages non-combat ships.

There are those that say that you should never be penalised for an unintentional disconnect. I tend to agree, but let's face it, that's not realistic. Look outside ED. if you're in a conference call with a prospective employer and your connection fails - bad consequences. In some other games you simply die on disconnection. All we're talking about here is losing virtual credits, and only if you're losing the combat based on how badly damaged you are.

Btw, if a suggestion like this has already been made, apologies. I didn't read all pages of this thread, just the first few.

Flamers, start your engines...

 

[Asp Explorer]

And if someone unpleasant decides to disconnect the attacking player from their instance for teh lulz - who then gets the fine?

 

[Riverside]

And if someone unpleasant decides to disconnect the attacking player from their instance for teh lulz - who then gets the fine?

How would one do that?

 

[Asp Explorer]

How would one do that?

I think there are up to 30+ methods now. They don't get discussed for obvious reasons.

 

[Riverside]

I think there are up to 30+ methods now. They don't get discussed for obvious reasons.

I can certainly understand that, but I still wouldn't consider a reason to dismiss the suggestion either. You would need a serious gripe with an individual to go that far (or be an utter tool, I suppose), and it would be a considerably worse 'crime' than simply combat logging.