Same old song about cheaters

[Comrade Error]

If you want to sell something, ideally you need to overcome all the objections. In this case you are selling the idea of a better system for dealing with combat logging to FDev.

In combat you are familiar with the idea of countering their counter to your counter, it's the same thing here.

I want to help you (not just you) to overcome this challenge, I want you (not just you) in Open, because I play paranoid, and like you, my gameplay is richer for there being a clear & present danger in Open. Unlike you though (it seems), my gameplay isn't dependant on there being other players around.

In the original story posted by Earth Ultimatum IV. earlier, had I been in that cutter I would have landed, then been surprised to be attacked & made my escape (or defended, depending on circumstances). I wouldn't have exited the game, and I certainly wouldn't have dropped to solo, regrouped & come back on the offensive.
In the more complete version, I wouldn't have landed (personally I wouldn't have opened fire on the landed Corvette but I would be aware of the option).

Ideally yes but Frontier was successful in selling me a game where my gameplay style is almost impossible to do successfully as last time I pirated it was about every 7-8 in 10 people who logged. It's ridiculous that I have to sell Frontier a fix in the first place, they are the ones supposed to fix it and they can't keep hiding under their 10 year plan and "maybe soon" to fix a game breaking exploit. Besides I don't believe there has EVER been an idea where there weren't any objections. That's just unrealistic.

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What circumstance are you describing? Please be more specific if you are looking for an honest response. I feel you are being less than complete in your responses here, which is a shame after your earlier post (on differentiating unintended & intended disconnects) moved the discussion on a little.

I'd like to make it clear that I am neither a Combat Logger nor Ganker by my own, or anyone elses standards. I would like to help you (not just you) to resolve this.

I'm responding to you wanting Fang to take responsibility for what I guess is griefing or at least he cause of combat logging, unless I missed something.

 

[Riverside]

The thing is that it's irrelevant. No sort of backstory can make his actions any less than what they are: combat logging.
It's not bias, omission of facts, or anything like that. It's just stating the facts; that he combat logged while playing in open.

If the backstory is important then you can ask him for it for your own benefit.

He already supplied enough extra that it would have changed my approach to the situation, as I describe above.

We both agree Combat Logging is bad, I said so in my original response to his story.

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I'm responding to you wanting Fang to take responsibility for what I guess is griefing or at least he cause of combat logging, unless I missed something.

Well I guess the missing bit is the 'not just you' stuff. As a group, PvP'ers are given a bad name by a subset of that group. I think that's a shame, and I think it would be in the interests of anyone that enjoys non-consensual PvP (a group that GF fits into) to differentiate themselves from mere gankers, possibly even to take some action to help (eg offering a defensive wing under threat of malace).

Or you can do nothing & be part of the crowd, watching from the sidelines.

 

[Riverside]

Ideally yes but Frontier was successful in selling me a game where my gameplay style is almost impossible to do successfully as last time I pirated it was about every 7-8 in 10 people who logged. It's ridiculous that I have to sell Frontier a fix in the first place, they are the ones supposed to fix it and they can't keep hiding under their 10 year plan and "maybe soon" to fix a game breaking exploit. Besides I don't believe there has EVER been an idea where there weren't any objections. That's just unrealistic.

Okay so what we have here is blame transfer. I understand your feelings on the matter, and simply pointing out the perceived issue and hoping they feel the same way certainly is one option, but you know you can do more

 

[BigBANGtheory [VR]]

Whilst people can combat log and get away with it they will. Classifying it as cheating or making the morale argument of cheating against perceived griefing is a circular argument and not that helpful imho.

FDev know its a problem, and they have allowed players to cheat and need to address it from both sides and in a number of ways. I would suggest the best method at this time is to simply report players and let FDev decide on what action to take.

 

[Comrade Error]

Well I guess the missing bit is the 'not just you' stuff. As a group, PvP'ers are given a bad name by a subset of that group. I think that's a shame, and I think it would be in the interests of anyone that enjoys non-consensual PvP (a group that GF fits into) to differentiate themselves from mere gankers, possibly even to take some action to help (eg offering a defensive wing under threat of malace).

Or you can do nothing & be part of the crowd, watching from the sidelines.

I've said plenty of times gankers are not pirating.

I'm not an idiot, I don't associate all PvErs with combat loggers but if I did and if I started protecting ships from gankers what are they going to do to solve the problem of combat logging? Not that I think it would help much even if they did try to do something about it.

 

[Vorxian]

This threadnought once more

IMO, there are a hundred other more important things to sort out first. Combat logging is no more annoying than perma-insta-spawning engineer upgraded AI 'bounty bunters' after your 100cr worth of horse manure, and when you kill Mr X, 10 seconds later he spawns on you again.

So yeah I can see how combat logging is annoying, but man, so are many other things.

 

[Comrade Error]

Okay so what we have here is blame transfer. I understand your feelings on the matter, and simply pointing out the perceived issue and hoping they feel the same way certainly is one option, but you know you can do more

Lol ok. You hear that bug report forums? Now you also have to come up with a solution for the issue you encounter or else you are blame transferring onto Frontier. Don't you ever expect Frontier to find the solution to anything, do it yourselves.

Thanks for the vague "You know you can do more." Very helpful.

 

[Riverside]

I've said plenty of times gankers are not pirating.

I'm not an idiot, I don't associate all PvErs with combat loggers but if I did and if I started protecting ships from gankers what are they going to do to solve the problem of combat logging? Not that I think it would help much even if they did try to do something about it.

Well I guess it's baby steps, isn't it?

Some players will always combat log, and a better method for capturing that... captures that

Other players are only going to jump ship if they think it's their only option to escape (yes, I know...)
These players, seeing the option to (for example) give you some of their cargo (voluntarily or otherwise) in exchange for a routine escort & some defence against the gankers (or legitimate CG blockade), may well enjoy the excitement of being interdicted by a ganker squad then having a front-row seat while you duke it out.

The Code used to give you a day pass. I thought this was okay but I'd rather have had guaranteed safe passage from any other pirates. This, to my eyes, really is acting the mercenary, plus it expands your opportunities for genuinely good PvP.

Just a thought.

 

[Comrade Error]

This threadnought once more

IMO, there are a hundred other more important things to sort out first. Combat logging is no more annoying than perma-insta-spawning engineer upgraded AI 'bounty bunters' after your 100cr worth of horse manure, and when you kill Mr X, 10 seconds later he spawns on you again.

So yeah I can see how combat logging is annoying, but man, so are many other things.

I don't believe some insta spawning bounty hunter makes any profession pointless let alone 2.

 

[Riverside]

Lol ok. You hear that bug report forums? Now you also have to come up with a solution for the issue you encounter or else you are blame transferring onto Frontier. Don't you ever expect Frontier to find the solution to anything, do it yourselves.

Thanks for the vague "You know you can do more." Very helpful.

That's a rather glass half empty way of looking at it but yes, you are (cynically) correct. That's how business works I'm afraid. If you want something to happen, make it as easy as possible to happen (and as hard as possible to object to) by doing all the legwork.

 

[DaylightM]

same old arguments.....
same cmdrs responding.....
still arguing with each other....

because I am already elite in combat (and have not had my rank reset so can do it with mad pvp skillz) I dont really care if someone does it to me as it is still counted as a win and the report player is accessible and if they come back then just ignore

 

[Riverside]

same old arguments.....
same cmdrs responding.....
still arguing with each other....

because I am already elite in combat (and have not had my rank reset so can do it with mad pvp skillz) I dont really care if someone does it to me as it is still counted as a win and the report player is accessible and if they come back then just ignore

You know if I come across a thread I'm not interested in I just don't post in it. Thanks for bumping the thread though

Personally I think our discussion has been pretty productive over the last few pages.

 

[Artemis Zodiac]

lol i came i here expecting to read about real cheating...

invincible ships,invincible shields,one hit kill damage,scan any thing anywhere in system,jump to whatever system one wants...inf ammo ect....


combat logging is the topic of choice....yawn...boring.

if one is going to do it.....at least do it properly eh.

 

[Achilles7]

Are you the same people who obsess about which holes men put their willies into, or what?

I draw the line at my ear canal!

 

[Farmboy]

How to solve combat logging 100%

1. Create your own private group. Make a condition of membership that any recorded combat log results in expulsion.
2. Invite like-minded players into your group.
3. Stop worrying about what players outside your group do.

The problem with this solution is that everyone wants to be the attacker, and nobody wants to be the victim. Forcing people to become unwilling victims for your gaming pleasure is to me the definition of griefing. It's a consent issue.

Those who combat log PvE are only cheating themselves, IMO. One can argue that they affect the BGS and Powerplay, but I think it's a weak argument.

 

[Vorxian]

I don't believe some insta spawning bounty hunter makes any profession pointless let alone 2.

if you mean pirating, then I have always harped on about an official OPEN PvE server. Allow non lethal pirating (pick pocketing), and that and PvE players (like me) will be absolutely ok with playing someone elses content.

 

[Comrade Error]

That's a rather glass half empty way of looking at it but yes, you are (cynically) correct. That's how business works I'm afraid. If you want something to happen, make it as easy as possible to happen (and as hard as possible to object to) by doing all the legwork.

And I've done that, I've given you a system that has a low margin for error but no matter what someone will object, if not combat loggers themselves. There has never been an idea in the history of humanity that has been universally agreed upon. Besides I'm not the business Frontier is. They are the ones supposed to come up with a fix.

If you have an idea that is universally agreed upon on these forums (no buts ifs or objections) I'll give you a bloody medal.

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if you mean pirating, then I have always harped on about an official OPEN PvE server. Allow non lethal pirating (pick pocketing), and that and PvE players (like me) will be absolutely ok with playing someone elses content.

Non-lethal piracy is begging as if you stumble upon a ship you can destroy but not disable you only have one option if you want to pirate and not beg. Unless every ship has infinet health or at least hey don't die when they reach 0% but that opens up a lot of worm cans.

I'm also talking about PvP bounty hunting.

 

[veryinky]

Ideally yes but Frontier was successful in selling me a game where my gameplay style is almost impossible to do successfully as last time I pirated it was about every 7-8 in 10 people who logged. It's ridiculous that I have to sell Frontier a fix in the first place, they are the ones supposed to fix it and they can't keep hiding under their 10 year plan and "maybe soon" to fix a game breaking exploit. Besides I don't believe there has EVER been an idea where there weren't any objections. That's just unrealistic.

The core issue is probably that freighter pilots don't get anything tangible out of being victims of piracy.

Personally I would recommend Fdev treat players exactly like they do NPCs, namely no hollow box or CMDR indicator, and no more peer-to-peer networking.

I'd also enforce strict law in space, piracy in "high sec" systems should be suicide or something someone does when they're rage-quitting the game forever. No (or 1/1000th as many) NPC pirates, much lower profits from hauling or trading, mandatory scans to gain station landing access. Committing a crime would result in loss of station docking access and insurance within lawful space. At the other end of the spectrum would be anarchy systems, much higher profits since they would be rarely visited by traders (npc at least), viable only for heavily armed smugglers, or roughly what we have now in the game.

As it is, I've seen player "pirates" in Shinrata Dezhra, the system that is permit locked, controlled by the faction that sets the player's permit permissions and insures the player's ship, while that player "pirate" shoots up an other ship that the Pilot's Federation insures and manages (player or otherwise). Clearest example that the game is simply broken from a law and order perspective.

This wouldn't give an incentive for players to be want to be pirated but it'd make the game a lot more sensible, at least make it more difficult for players who go out of their way to attack effectively defenseless players "for the lulz".

Non-lethal piracy is begging as if you stumble upon a ship you can destroy but not disable you only have one option if you want to pirate and not beg. Unless every ship has infinet health or at least hey don't die when they reach 0% but that opens up a lot of worm cans.

How about a PVE option? Player clicks it and from that point on if they're attacked by an other player a NPC version of the player's ship is spawned from the attacker's point of view, while NPC version of the attacker is given to the player. Either way, both players would never be able to instance with each other ever again, they would be officially dead to each other. Pirate gets to pirate while freighter pilot gets to deal with the E in PVE.

Personally I'd love an offline mode, since I can't play for weeks to months on end. No reliable internet connection at worksites.

 

[DaylightM]

I am interested..... am sorry for making you think otherwise but we seem to just go around in circles I am sure it has been productive but its old ground
what I am not interested in is seeing pages and pages of the same old cmdrs going on and on about "cheating" this has been an issue since release it as not been addressed to the satisfaction of a minority in the community... the report player function is still the only redress for a cmdr faced with a combat log... the fact that there are several groups on the "interweb" that highlight these players not to mention the youtube videos

if someone combat logs on you then you win... I still dont see the problem

 

[babelfisch]

I thought this thread is about something important, like cheats and stuff. It isn't.