News Future support for Win 32 and DX10

[JerryLove]

That does in no way make people eligible for refunds, not one way, if it did you would have people asking for refunds for older iphones and such when support dropped, but yeah that won't work, and it won't work here.

That's not a valid analogy.

If I buy an iPhone, and 6 months from now Apple disables it, then yes: I would demand a refund.

So no, there is no 'of course' that they should issue a refund, if you have already played that game for an extended period of time, add that this is a six months warning...You are warned in plenty of time. I would not be surprised one bit that this is due to season 3 and how they want it to perform.

We aren't discussing future expansions being unplayable. We are discussing disabling the existing base game.

If you are running w32 and dx10 max you are already getting very low end experience of the game as it is....upgrade? win win?

Your privilege is showing.

If you looked at the system requirements today why would you not see that on the 19/9/2016 FD announced that sometime in the future they are dropping win32 support? If you did you should not be surprised when your software no longer functions.

Because they don't presently have that disclaimer. Anyone who purchased with that disclaimer up would not be entitled to compensation when that happened. They knew it when they purchased the product.

But that is not the case.

For example if you want to run the latest version of windows you need the latest hardware - Note Micro$oft's Windows 10 CPU support : 3rd Generation Intel Core Processors will not work at some point next year after Intel and AMD have released their new CPU's, how many of those are using Windows 10 currently? Neither Intel or Microsoft are offering any refund.

We are not discussing running the next game. We are discussing running this game. Microsoft has not made windows stop functioning on hardware it previously worked on.

Yes: the *next* version might not be supported on your hardware; but the version you already have running is.

Just my viewpoint but anybody who spends their money on ED now using a win32 knows they will have to upgrade or stop playing. To use your car scenario - would you buy a VW diesel?

So you think people who purchased VW diesels before it came out that they were lying are not due compensation?

 

[Ben_BigBen]

It Win7 32bit license keys are valid for a 64bit installation - you can check with Microsoft here and download the ISO to upgrade too.

 

[gazelle]

Imagine I look at the system requirements of Elite Dangerous today.

https://www.frontierstore.net/eur/games/elite-dangerous-cat/elite-dangerous.html

WINDOWS MINIMUM HARDWARE SPECIFICATION:

• OS: Windows 7/8/10 64 bit
• Processor: Quad Core CPU (4 x 2Ghz)
• Memory: 4 GB RAM
• Graphics: Nvidia GTX 470/ATI 7240HD
• DirectX: Version 11
• Network Broadband Internet Connection
• Hard Drive: 7 GB available space

 

[Insomnia]

https://www.frontierstore.net/eur/games/elite-dangerous-cat/elite-dangerous.html

WINDOWS MINIMUM HARDWARE SPECIFICATION:

• OS: Windows 7/8/10 64 bit
• Processor: Quad Core CPU (4 x 2Ghz)
• Memory: 4 GB RAM
• Graphics: Nvidia GTX 470/ATI 7240HD
• DirectX: Version 11
• Network Broadband Internet Connection
• Hard Drive: 7 GB available space

When Braben announced they're dropping 32bit support, they changed the min requirements specs to 64bit only.

 

[Muad'Dib [POZ]]

Compatibility backwards you want Mmmm… Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose you must… [alien]

DX11 has been out for over 5 years now if you have not upgraded to it I think its time also during WinXP's life span is when everyone should have been switching over to running a 64 bit OS... so 64bit and DX11 should not be an issue on a PC in my book...


Release history

DirectX version	Version number	Release date
11	6.01.7601.17514	February 16, 2011
11.1	6.02.9200.16384	August 1, 2012
11.2	6.03.9600.16384	October 18, 2013
12.0	10.00.10240.16384	July 29, 2015

 

[xondk]

That's not a valid analogy.

It is all about life cycle and the life cycle of win32 and dx10 is nearing its end, it has been for a while, this was something known coming, so yes, I think think comparing it to a phone that after a long time use gets end of life, and people wanting a refund?

If I buy an iPhone, and 6 months from now Apple disables it, then yes: I would demand a refund.

If you bought an iphone 4, 6 months ago, before support ran out, would you demand a refund now? that is what I am comparing towards, not the material, but the technology, win32 and dx10 are on the way out.

We aren't discussing future expansions being unplayable. We are discussing disabling the existing base game.

You are right, yes, but I would still think comparison is apt.

Your privilege is showing.

Not really, I do not have a super computer, my motherboard cpu and ram are around 8 years old now, only thing I've been able to upgrade is gpu, and I did that because I wanted to keep up. I am by no means on the extreme end of the spectrum, definitely a budget conscious gamer.
And I've been where I had 'no' budget, and yes it sucks, but I still wouldn't want games I enjoy held back.
the vast majority of people, will only need to upgrade their graphic card and OS, and in most cases many are using 64 bit os' without knowing it in my experience.
Add that a low end dx11 capable card is _VERY_ cheap right now, and should almost regardless of what dx10 card you have give a performance boost.

So yeah, it isn't about privilege, it is about priority. If my hardware becomes too old to play a game I enjoy, I will prioritise fixing that.
But yes, I will agree it does hit those with low income the hardest, those enjoying the game but are struggling with hardware, and that sucks, having been there I know how it sucks. But what then, should the game not progress?

Because they don't presently have that disclaimer. Anyone who purchased with that disclaimer up would not be entitled to compensation when that happened. They knew it when they purchased the product.

I would personally think the disclaimer is, that your game isn't running that well to begin with? I cannot imagine a win32 dx10 only setup running the game satisfactory?
Essentially the argument seems to be. "If I can buy this game and run it at 10 fps at absolute minimum and be happy with that then I should be able to do so always"

Which I understand, but given especially Elite's announce as an evolving and developing game, yeah I wouldn't see hold true.

 

[mazi]

https://www.frontierstore.net/eur/games/elite-dangerous-cat/elite-dangerous.html

WINDOWS MINIMUM HARDWARE SPECIFICATION:

• OS: Windows 7/8/10 64 bit....

When Braben announced they're dropping 32bit support, they changed the min requirements specs to 64bit only.

Well, but only for the English version. If you switch to German, French, Russian language there is no such thing as 64bit

 

[WhiteShadow]

I am all for dropping 32bit to keep the quality of this game evolving for the better over the next 8-9 years of it's development.

I understand the DX10 issue, but you do have to agree, it is an archaic graphics protocol that was sorely in need of upgrading when it first came out, let alone in this day and age whre DX11 is in full swing, and DX12 / Vulcan is just around the corner with all it's lovely bells and whistles...

My main issue is regarding the 32/64bit argument.. I've read this thread from the first post until now... and it's only this evening that I actually pulled out my boxed copy of Elite: Dangerous that I received as an original Kickstarter backer... So this is the ORIGINAL game, that came out on LAUNCH DAY back in December 2014 (Even though I didn't receive my boxed copy until after this), and I looked at the minimum specifications on the back... Here's what I found:

As you can see, AT LAUNCH, there is no mention that this was a 32bit or 64bit only game, so no argument can be put forward here. Frontier are well within their rights to end 32bit support to continue developing this game, as it was never stated that it was either 32bit only, or 64bit only. To add to this, technology moves on, and so should any support for older DirectX versions if the technology has been superseded by more stable versions, and also, as other users have stated, is now a few weeks to being 10 years old (DX 10 was released with Windows Vista in November 2006).

On a side note, the minimum specs above does have a small discrepancy... It shows that DX10 hardware GPU is supported, but still, at the front of the queue, right there, in the top left of the specs box, is... DIRECT X 11!

And on a final note, I have many boxed games that I have bought, played, cherished, and now miss as they will not work on modern operating systems... I'm not trying to get a refund for these as they no longer work for me, even though I paid good money at the time!! (I'll find a way of getting these to work again, I promise you!)

Please 32bit/DX10 people... let this game thrive, It deserves it... we've all waited far too long for Elite 4 to come along... Let's let it be the game we all want it to be, without limits!

I apologise for my slight rant, but most of all, please...

Fly safe Commanders!

 

[Mercury7]

Microsoft are dropping 32-bit from future Windows updates, too. Nice to finally see 32-bit being thrown in the dustbin!

16-bit was dropped almost immediately when 32-bit arrived, but people have been so reluctant to move from 32-bit.

 

[JerryLove]

It is all about life cycle and the life cycle of win32 and dx10 is nearing its end, it has been for a while, this was something known coming, so yes, I think think comparing it to a phone that after a long time use gets end of life, and people wanting a refund?

The first iPhone put out still runs whatever the last supported version of iOS for it was.
The first android phone put out still runs whatever the last supported version of Android for it was.

I can still power up my 386DX40, can still boot it to MS-DOS 5.0 and can still run DOOM on it.

No one went back and retroactively broke compatibility; which is what you are discussing here.

Even MMOs rarely break that rule: when Star Trek Online discontinued support for the Mac Client, even though Mac users could still run under emulation, they refunded 100% of all monies spent post FTP.

If you bought an iphone 4, 6 months ago, before support ran out, would you demand a refund now? that is what I am comparing towards, not the material, but the technology, win32 and dx10 are on the way out.

If the iPhone because useless when support ran out: yes I would.

But no one does it that way. The end of the support lifecycle means "no new updates".

Ignoring the issue of the kickstarters who are entitled to all seasons for a moment: If FD decided that season 3.0 required 64-bit and DX12, that would be fine. If you don't have that: don't buy season 3.

You (and most everyone else) keep comparing "no more updates" support with "the program that worked yesterday will not work today" that is being discussed.

Not really, I do not have a super computer, my motherboard cpu and ram are around 8 years old now, only thing I've been able to upgrade is gpu, and I did that because I wanted to keep up. I am by no means on the extreme end of the spectrum, definitely a budget conscious gamer.
And I've been where I had 'no' budget, and yes it sucks, but I still wouldn't want games I enjoy held back.
the vast majority of people, will only need to upgrade their graphic card and OS, and in most cases many are using 64 bit os' without knowing it in my experience.
Add that a low end dx11 capable card is _VERY_ cheap right now, and should almost regardless of what dx10 card you have give a performance boost.

You have the privilege to be able to upgrade if you make it a priority. Some do not.

But yes, I will agree it does hit those with low income the hardest, those enjoying the game but are struggling with hardware, and that sucks, having been there I know how it sucks. But what then, should the game not progress?

Progress all you want. But if you sell a product, and then change that product such that people who purchased it can suddenly not use your product any more despite meeting all the requirements when you sold it to them, you should offer them a refund.

I would personally think the disclaimer is, that your game isn't running that well to begin with? I cannot imagine a win32 dx10 only setup running the game satisfactory?
Essentially the argument seems to be. "If I can buy this game and run it at 10 fps at absolute minimum and be happy with that then I should be able to do so always"

Not your nor my call. If they are happy with their performance, I am in no position to tell them they are wrong.

Which I understand, but given especially Elite's announce as an evolving and developing game, yeah I wouldn't see hold true.

Cool. Then you would have no issue if in addition to the current change; we also required at least 50 processing cores, 128 GB of RAM, 40TB of disk space, and no fewer than 2 Tesla K40 M GPUs?

I mean: I could purchase that if I made it a priority.

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Microsoft are dropping 32-bit from future Windows updates, too. Nice to finally see 32-bit being thrown in the dustbin!

16-bit was dropped almost immediately when 32-bit arrived, but people have been so reluctant to move from 32-bit.

The difference being that My 16-bit windows 3.1 still runs, as does my 32-bit NT 3.51. So, for that matter, does my 8-bit DOS.

 

[GG7]

The number of ED owners still on 32 bit is so small that it really should not be a consideration for moving forward. If they want the best experience with this game, then they need to invest in a "modern" PC with a "modern" OS.

Allowing that tiny percentage of users to hold back the remaining 99% is just silly and counterproductive.

I appreciate David asking for opinions, and in my opinion, this should have been done a long time ago. The improvements in development time and a true focus on 64 bit will benefit the game immensely.

 

[Flimley]

The number of ED owners still on 32 bit is so small that it really should not be a consideration for moving forward. If they want the best experience with this game, then they need to invest in a "modern" PC with a "modern" OS.

Allowing that tiny percentage of users to hold back the remaining 99% is just silly and counterproductive.

I appreciate David asking for opinions, and in my opinion, this should have been done a long time ago. The improvements in development time and a true focus on 64 bit will benefit the game immensely.

I concur. Its excellent news to see the game tech moving forward.

Flimley

 

[M_Biscotti]

The number of ED owners still on 32 bit is so small that it really should not be a consideration for moving forward. If they want the best experience with this game, then they need to invest in a "modern" PC with a "modern" OS.

Allowing that tiny percentage of users to hold back the remaining 99% is just silly and counterproductive.

I appreciate David asking for opinions, and in my opinion, this should have been done a long time ago. The improvements in development time and a true focus on 64 bit will benefit the game immensely.

As long as the 3.X extension doesn't require Dx12 I'm fine . (Which would mean Windows 10, so for me a new computer as mine doesn't support specs (hardware DRM chip called TPM like on Apple computers and UEFI "secure" mode, more than 1000€ is too expensive for a game )

 

[MickyG1982]

Well, considering any PC capable of playing the game is indeed capable of running a 64bit OS (for Intel even the Pentium 4 was 64 bit and that was from 2005, following on from AMD who made the switch in 2003) the whole dropping of 32 bit support shouldn't be a problem for most gamers. Basically it's an hour out of peoples lives installing the 64 bit version of the OS they already have. That part won't even cost money since the actual files are all hosted on Microsoft's own website (you simply need a valid key to activate it)

Granted, upgrading the GPU will cost money, but with a half decent card no more than a quiet night out down the pub second hand, (£30 - £50) it's not all that expensive to make the switch.

 

[JerryLove]

The number of ED owners still on 32 bit is so small that it really should not be a consideration for moving forward.

Of course they should be considered.

That said: It may be considered worthwile to offer refunds to those unable or unwilling to move to 64-bit and then move the application there. I was actually a bit surprised ED was ever 32-bit; even KSP moved 64-bit while still in beta.

If they want the best experience with this game, then they need to invest in a "modern" PC with a "modern" OS.

And VR: because this game is better in VR.
And a 1080 or two because VR is demanding.
Also a good HOTAS and rudder ($1k - $1.5k for the good stuff)/

I mean... if you want the best experience.

From my perspective: It would be nice if ED went 64-bit, DX12, and moved to focus on VR. The rest of you be damned.

Allowing that tiny percentage of users to hold back the remaining 99% is just silly and counterproductive.

I wouldn't use such dismissive terms but yes: holding back a fix for 99% of users to support 1% is (generally) a bad choice.

But there is a moral and perhaps legal obligation to the people who are being cut-off from their purchased product.

I appreciate David asking for opinions, and in my opinion, this should have been done a long time ago. The improvements in development time and a true focus on 64 bit will benefit the game immensely.

IMO: 32-bit should never have been considered in the first place.

Well, considering any PC capable of playing the game is indeed capable of running a 64bit OS (for Intel even the Pentium 4 was 64 bit and that was from 2005, following on from AMD who made the switch in 2003) the whole dropping of 32 bit support shouldn't be a problem for most gamers.

For most people: I agree.

Basically it's an hour out of peoples lives installing the 64 bit version of the OS they already have. That part won't even cost money since the actual files are all hosted on Microsoft's own website (you simply need a valid key to activate it)

Unless there's a driver problem (for example) that prevents them from moving to 64-bit.

Granted, upgrading the GPU will cost money, but with a half decent card no more than a quiet night out down the pub second hand, (£30 - £50) it's not all that expensive to make the switch.

Which most of us have the privilege to be able to afford.

The people who will be left with a useless product are going to generally be the poorest of us... though there could be other reasons they are unable to move to a 64-bit OS or DX11.

Though I've not heard mention that the GPU requirements would go up from this change.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Well, considering any PC capable of playing the game is indeed capable of running a 64bit OS (for Intel even the Pentium 4 was 64 bit and that was from 2005, following on from AMD who made the switch in 2003) the whole dropping of 32 bit support shouldn't be a problem for most gamers. Basically it's an hour out of peoples lives installing the 64 bit version of the OS they already have. That part won't even cost money since the actual files are all hosted on Microsoft's own website (you simply need a valid key to activate it)

Granted, upgrading the GPU will cost money, but with a half decent card no more than a quiet night out down the pub second hand, (£30 - £50) it's not all that expensive to make the switch.

Yes, jump to 64-bit today is not something insurmountable

 

[Treman]

I vote drop it... Personally I don't want Frontier held back in any way. 6 months is plenty of time.

No disrespect intended. x

 

[Myspace Kaitsu80]

I am all for what it takes to make a bug free game, and improve how it works.
Though I hope support for 64 bit Windows 7 and DX 11 will remain, I have no intention to update my Window 7 64 just for the sake of updating as it works exactly as it should, though would certainly do it for Elite.

I have no idea if completely 64-bit Elite will allow Frontier to put us all into same instance, all mission from different instances on a same list in shared instance, unlimited amount of bookmarks or what (please somebody inform me on those actually), but I welcome the Change.



edit: I will personally upgrade my 680 2GB OC GPU to a newest model as soon as it arrives, so one less DX 10 GPU soon

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I am all for what it takes to make a bug free game, and improve how it works.
Though I hope support for 64 bit Windows 7 and DX 11 will remain, I have no intention to update my Window 7 64 just for the sake of updating as it works exactly as it should, though would certainly do it for Elite.

I have no idea if completely 64-bit Elite will allow Frontier to put us all into same instance, all mission from different instances on a same list in shared instance, unlimited amount of bookmarks or what (please somebody inform me on those actually), but I welcome the Change.



edit: I will personally upgrade my 680 2GB OC GPU to a newest model as soon as it arrives, so one less DX 10 GPU soon

I doubt they will be upgrading to DX12 anytime soon. Also a 680 is a DX11 card.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

I just upgraded my graphics card to keep up with the game. That makes over $600 USD spent on Elite (Thrustmaster, card, software).

If the specs for Season 3 go up again, I will not be purchasing it.