Do you care about preventing combat logging?

[HalloweenWeed]

In my 2 months playing this game, almost every day of the week, and mostly all the weekends, about 40% non-solo, I have never even seen another live player.* Yes, I know how to spot them.
And now I play Mobius PvE when I play MP. So given that, at the moment, why would I care? But yes, I have "died" and rebought about a dozen times since I started, the most recent just about two weeks ago.

*I played solo until I worked my way about 50LYr from the starting system.

 

[FurtivePygmy]

I have always played in SOLO with a few rare exceptions, so I really don't have a horse in the race regarding this whole combat logging debate. But rather than potentially screwing with a legit Pirate's game session by disconnecting at the first sign of another human player, just play SOLO and guarantee yourself a griefer free experience.

Seriously, thank you for this. I respect that you don't want the kind of interaction I am after as a pirate, and thank you for having the same respect for my time and playstyle as well.

 

[Sandmann]

If I CL rather than let you get the kill, your Combat rank is negatively affected because it should, but didn't, have increased by 1 kill.

Ok, that's a matter of interpretation then. I see that as "oh well, that was 2 minutes of fun and I got a win coz he left", you see that as "I failed to increase my rank despite putting in two minutes of combat." It's not a loss of rank, but rather a failure of potential gain.

Logically however, doesn't that imply that PvPers who are Elite ranked shouldn't care though?

 

[EUS]

I do not do it, & I do not care about it.

 

[Lateralus]

I voted yes because it undermines all-forms of PvP gameplay.

 

[Red Anders]

Since OP seemingly wants deeper analysis of the issue I'll throw this in.

The fact that players do combat log (and do so with relative impunity unless they get reported, plus anecdotally don't receive much in the way of meaningful punishment even if they are reported) is one of the biggest reasons that nothing of significance is done to address the reason why they do it, which in may cases seems to be the perception of a completely meaningless crime and punishment system in the game.

If those players who currently avoid the problems that causes by simply logging were instead drowning the forums with posts about the fact that they could no longer afford their rebuys because logging was no longer a viable option, I suspect that considerably more time would suddenly be devoted to resolving the issue.

So much of the problem goes back to the P2P implementation. Although I understand the reasons for it, it does remove the usual way of dealing with this which is to simply leave the player's ship dead in space for a minute or so after they log, thereby ensuring that when they log back in, they are welcomed by the rebuy screen they tried so hard to avoid. As far as I know, that can't be done using P2P because the other player disappears the second the connection is broken.

I do think it's funny that so many people see to see it as a totally legitimate thing to do in this game. I have to suspect they aren't regular gamers because it's a straight account ban in some games.

 

[Heavenly-Hammer]

You guys seem to think there's a way to solve this. There isn't.

Ask anyone in the fighting game community, where "combat logging" (quitting just before you're going to lose) has been a thing for a decade. P2P games can't differentiate between a forced disconnection (Alt+F4, ethernet cord removal, airplane mode) and real network problems (power outtages, temporary ISP service issues, DDoS attacks). They just can't. So what they do is things like this:

https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2016...ur-ban-and-1000-lp-loss-serial-rage-quitters/

In short, they monitor the *frequency* of quitting, then start to penalize based on frequency of quitting within a given time window. That is literally the best they can do because they don't want to punish people having real connection problems too severely, while understanding they also can't cater to people playing on unstable networks.

As far as I know, ED does this already. They know 100% when someone drops connection. I believe they do implement some punishments based on volume, including things like shadow bans. FDev is unlikely to ever make ships instantly explode for losing connection because the punishment is too hard in ED and I don't think there is enough motivation to let ships sit there for an extra 15-30 seconds getting pounded on after the owner has disconnected (for whatever reason). Loss of ship, loss of cargo, loss of exploration data, maybe loss of your entire economy if you can't cover buyback. I don't think FDev wants to to that even if they could.

This challenge is greater than what we see in fighting games which are designed for only PvP fighting and each match is only about a minute long; someone may only combat log in ED once in a month. Or once in a season. Or once a year. Where does the penalty system kick in for a game where the occurrence of an individual combat logging is probably close to 0? Do they get a warning after the very first detected lost connection and have to play petrified for the next hour/day/week in fear that any network problem could cause them to lose hours of time put into the game? I'd be surprised if any individual CMDR has combat logged more than 4 times in 12 months. That's well within any margin of error for network uptime, power disruptions, etc as far as infraction detection goes.

Imagine the volume of angry email messages coming into the Support desk. Would they ask for "proof" that there was a network problem before giving someone their losses back? What would that even look like? And note some losses (exploration data, cargo) can't come back even if they found in your favor; they can only give you their value. They'd have to double their Support staff.

Without a reliable way to differentiate quitters from network issues, there will never be a satisfactory resolution here. The best you can do is report people who suspiciously go missing. Beyond that...I don't know if you guys will ever be happy here.

 

[Deleted member 140600]

You guys seem to think there's a way to solve this. There isn't.

There is : add a 5-10m persistence of the ship in the instance when the games is closed (normally or by killing the process)

 

[StiTch]

There is : add a 5-10m persistence of the ship in the instance when the games is closed (normally or by killing the process)

*sigh*

For the 23478923547895243789345789th time.

ED is P2P.

You cannot have persistent ships.

Next.

 

[Asp Explorer]

There is : add a 5-10m persistence of the ship in the instance when the games is closed (normally or by killing the process)

As there is no gameplay server to host a players ship after a disconnect - that's not going to happen.

 

[Deleted member 140600]

*sigh*

For the 23478923547895243789345789th time.

ED is P2P.

You cannot have persistent ships.

Next.

So mature.

As there is no gameplay server to host a players ship after a disconnect - that's not going to happen.

And, isn't it something thant can be created ? A server witch store ships with unlogged player ?

 

[Sandmann]

There is : add a 5-10m persistence of the ship in the instance when the games is closed (normally or by killing the process)

Perhaps you should read the rest of his post - he go to quite some lengths to detail why that won't work.

Either way, the thread's not about how to fix it or even if it SHOULD be fixed... just whether you care about it and why.

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And, isn't it something thant can be created ?

Not without a ground up redesign of the networking parts of the game and a huge and ongoing financial cost to fdev.

 

[Kyokushin]

Yes, i care.
Combat logging is wrong, and people who do that are cancer of this lovely community.

In my 2 months playing this game, almost every day of the week, and mostly all the weekends, about 40% non-solo, I have never even seen another live player.* Yes, I know how to spot them.
And now I play Mobius PvE when I play MP. So given that, at the moment, why would I care? But yes, I have "died" and rebought about a dozen times since I started, the most recent just about two weeks ago.

*I played solo until I worked my way about 50LYr from the starting system.

I am playing since a half of 2014, only in open. Try it - not so bad, you learn more, meet cool people, sometimes you will get rebuy, but not often and only in a case of very bad luck Just more fun when this is a bit more dangerous.

 

[Breakspear]

For players that can have all day in front of a PC or XBOX, combat logging is a shame. For the casual player that only have two or three hours after work to earn a few mills to buy a new ship, or to explore, or anything, combat logging is a must!

What a load of bull    . I play 8-10 hours per week, after work, and never have or will combat log. It isn't a must. If you think it is, you shouldn't be playing

 

[Marshall...]

You guys seem to think there's a way to solve this. There isn't.

Ask anyone in the fighting game community, where "combat logging" (quitting just before you're going to lose) has been a thing for a decade. P2P games can't differentiate between a forced disconnection (Alt+F4, ethernet cord removal, airplane mode) and real network problems (power outtages, temporary ISP service issues, DDoS attacks). They just can't. So what they do is things like this:

<<snip>>.

Yep that totally sums up my thoughts too!

 

[StiTch]

So mature.

No you're right, that one was out of line. You just have no idea how much that has to be said.

The whole ED architecture is built around P2P. FD would have to restructure the entire networking side of the game and then some.

 

[Iskariot]

I play mostly solo. But have been attacked a few times in Open.
I don't care about combat logging, because if someone logs I still consider it a win.
Doesn't matter to me whether the other one dies with honer, escapes honorably via normal means, or flees disgracefully through logging.

I never initiate an attack on other players as I don't give a toss about PvP.
Perhaps I am mistaken but I get the feeling that the ones who care about logging are mostly PvP minded players?

 

[=71st=RuSh]

Anyway, we can be for hours arguing here, but the poll is showing that players don't care, why? I think it is because MOST of players are in PvE Groups or Solo.

 

[Drelthar]

For those who feel it IS an impotant issue I'd also be interested in hearing about WHY it's so offensive to you? That's not mandatory of course, just for my own curiosity.

Because it's cheating. It's fairly simple, in a game, there are rules, whenever someone breaks them, it makes it unfair on other players of the game.

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Yes, it is... but only because there is a rule that says so. If there were no such rule, would you still be as offended by it?

Yes, because I would still feel that it's cheating.

It's invincibility, it negates the entire death mechanic in the game. In order for this not to be a rule, there would have to be no penalty to death, removing any challenge within the game, significantly lowering it's entertainment value.

 

[Kyokushin]

Anyway, we can be for hours arguing here, but the poll is showing that players don't care, why? I think it is because MOST of players are in PvE Groups or Solo.

No, Open is much more populated. I checked last week because i was curious. I was in most 'popular' places in Open and mobius, and in Open there was in my opinion more chance to meet a player, and at populated places like Jameson, Ruins or CG there was around 3 times more folks in Open than on Mobius.

I have a respect for ANY player whose i meet in Open, even if it is enemy, noob or whatever. He is in Open and he is my respect for that

P.S.
If you are a folk who got a bit of salt from me, i shoot you, or did something bad - I wish you know - this is an-ingame thing, i have a stron respect for You for playing in Open. You can ask me whatever You want about the game and i will always give you some help and advices.