Devs don't play their own game...

If every time we have a dev on stream, there is an outcry, FD's will simply stop putting them on stream. Which would be a shame.

I really like the streams the devs do, I'm not judging their ability whatsoever. Couldn't careless for streams if they are like a duck with a shovel or l33t pro gamers.

However, the point being made, well that I make, is in relation to some of the frustrating elements and areas of poor gameplay, flaws in the game.

Ergo, if they actually played the game proper as the players do the game would likely be better because they would have experienced the various frustrations the rest of us do.

Its also a more of an issue with ED because we were long told, 'we are making a game we want to play'.. If thats the case then why aren't they playing it?

Either they are sick to death of it by the time they get home and prefer to do other things with their free time (understandable), or they aren't playing it because the gameplay is weak and not enjoyable.

So either way, whats the deal with sitting in ivory towers rattling away in secret and suddenly appearing with a build and features without consulting the people who do play it, and not asking us the paying customers what we want? Quite baffling.

Powerplay is a classic example..

There is absolutely no indication of how mutl crew is going to work and beyond season 2, its really anyones guess what they are working on, lets hope its not another powerplay debacle. I also don't quite understand why we haven't got foggiest about whats after season 2, this isn't a classified top secret project guys.. :rolleyes:
 
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I also had a short spell as a games developer. You really don't even need to work in the industry to have common sense insight into this. Developers have to work on games they may not necessarily enjoy playing, that's why we have a games industry with many genres on many levels. We're able to hire staff to make stuff for other people.

It's the same with other media, films, television and music. You could work on any one of those things in a genre your not a fan of.

If you honestly think it's a genuine complaint to expect the developers looking at the guts of an application all day to go home and spend their free time playing it, your fresh out of luck. Sorry. It won't happen very often. It's usually the last game you want to play when you get home in what precious free time you have left.

It's not about "eating your own dog-food", a huge amount of software and entertainment media is made by talented men and woman who don't consume the stuff they make on the same level as others. Yes, it certainly pays to use your stuff in anger and play it like a gamer, but it's no substitute for a QA environment and test cases and you certainly can't make people play it/watch it/listen to it and you won't find any games companies out there any different.

I also sometimes see people complaining that the developers don't play other games. You will never find more enthusiasm for the games industry than within it, where I worked we used to play network games through lunch time then go to someones house and play everything on any console we had access to. We had obscure Japanese imports, Mame cabs, game rooms and network setups. Those guys live games.
 
I really like the streams the devs do, I'm not judging their ability whatsoever.
No bad intentions on your part then : dully noted Cosmos. (Frankly, coming from you, it's no surprise : yeah, we've both been here for quite a long time ...)

However, the point being made, well that I make
Honesty then ... Again, dully noted. Genuine kudos to you for making the Internet a smarter place.

, is in relation to some of the frustrating elements and areas of poor gameplay, flaws in the game.
Yeah, I concur, when it comes to flaws in the game, FD knows its turf :-(
Some of these flaws are *definitely* outrageous, and what's worse, I'm 100% sure you know some that I don't and I might even know some you don't :(

*severe look at FD* "I told you so !!!"

Ergo, if they actually played the game proper as the players do the game would likely be better because they would have experienced the various frustrations the rest of us do.

Yes, that's indeed the idea behind the whole controversy I think. Really, I do understand that. Besides, if FD has an employee who spends all his free time playing the game, giving him a raise and putting him/her on stream might be a smart move.

This is what I feel myself TBH : when I'm trying to get some technetium to improve my MC with rapid fire, I have to deal with the srv scanners bug. And the only reason why I'm grinding this rapid fire upgrade is because I've given up on Overcharged Multi Cannons. Because Modified Embedded Firmwares are stupidly rare, even if you farm the right bases. Even worse, the reason why Overcharged Multi Cannons are desirable is because they are ridiculously overpowered. Which is an oversight in itself that the devs already acknowledged (and the fix is yet to come *sigh*).

*severe look at FD* "I told you you should have done your homework !"

"Its also a more of an issue with ED because we were long told, 'we are making a game we want to play'.. If thats the case then why aren't they playing it?"

Here, I honestly disagree, because they *do* play it. Granted, they do not play it "a lot" : according to my own in game stats right now, I played "33W 2D 9H 6MN". Good luck FD finding a dev that played the game as long as I did. Still, they *do* play it at some extent, and some of them probably played it *a lot*. (speculating here : I have no proof. Still, seems plausible ...)

Either they are sick to death of it by the time they get home and prefer to do other things with their free time (understandable)
You care about the human being behind the dev : dully noted... No irony here : you're not trolling (obviously I knew that already)

, or they aren't playing it because the gameplay is weak and not enjoyable.

Possible. But honestly, I believe (believe = "I have no proof", yeah, I know you noticed but just clarifying for other readers) this is not the main reason. I mean, even if it is not your cup of tea, the fighting part is still (at the very least) decent.

I believe we have to be realistic and show some empathy here : imagine you, Cosmos, were looking for a job in IT ... And found a very challenging, yet well paid job, to maintain some bank company main software. Would you use said software once you're back home every evening just for the sake of it ? Obviously not ... But this is pure rhetoric : I know you know you wouldn't. And I know you're not asking the devs to do that.

So either way, whats the deal with sitting in ivory towers rattling away in secret and suddenly appearing with a build and features without consulting the people who do play it, and not asking us the paying customers what we want? Quite baffling.

Yes, you're right. They screwed this up big time.

*Frowning at FD* I told you they'd notice !

No defence here : as far as I'm concerned, FD is guilty as charged.

Even worse, it's not the first time. And you're rightfully angry. The misguided white knights will jump on the thread and troll you to death because that is what they do. Let's ignore them then.

Powerplay is a classic example..

*Angry look at FD*
No way I step up to defend you about powerplay, this is *your* mess, *you* sort it out !

Conclusion : Everything you said makes sense. I'm willing to give FD a pass (my "opinion" so to speak), maybe you're not (for good reasons, TBH). But in the end, do you have another open universe scifi game (slowly) improving / growing to play with ? Because, as far as I'm concerned, this is all that matters and I have no alternative (Star Citizen is still at the very least 2 years away and might not even be better IMHO). So yeah, I'll give FD a pass on this one.

*Again*

Looking at FD : *Sigh*
 
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I seen the DEVs play OPEN Mining for 1hour and non managed to even sell 1tonne of ores.
I lost count how many Ships they lost albeit Keelbacks. It would not have made much of a difference what Ship they used in OPEN once facing Wings or even a Corvette/Conda with an Elite NPC Fighter.
So what did they both learn from this? NOTHING - it was just a staged bit of fun and they do not care about how thrustrating the game really can be when wanting to be in OPEN to mingle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf9...um=email&utm_source=Frontier Developments Ltd

Oh reeeally. Show me how this happened to you when you weren´t streaming.
 
Yes, that's indeed the idea behind the whole controversy I think. Really, I do understand that. Besides, if FD has an employee who spends all his free time playing the game, giving him a raise and putting him/her on stream might be a smart move.

I am looking for gainful employment opportunities but I don't have Ed's personality and so streams under my watch may be somewhat 'different' [haha] Perhaps Frontier and I could work something out.. Except I'm not exactly an ideal candidate, I tend to speak my mind, I've surely        off so many people at Frontier over the years that it wouldn't be worth filling out the application form.

Still, if folks want me to fix the game, my rates are quite reasonable :D All said and done, I wish and hope for nothing other than the best for ED.

I believe we have to be realistic and show some empathy here : imagine you, Cosmos, were looking for a job in IT ... And found a very challenging, yet well paid job, to maintain some bank company main software. Would you use said software once you're back home every evening just for the sake of it ? Obviously not ... But this is pure rhetoric : I know you know you wouldn't. And I know you're not asking the devs to do that.

Believe me I've worked in IT, I can fathom everything ED does bar stellar forge and some of the graphical effects that model the stars. But then lets agree that they 'aren't making a game they want to play' - instead, they are making a game they have an interest in, the genre.. its become their work.

So lets have a rethink about the direction ED is headed and consult the present player base. Perhaps we could think about a council of players who fully represent the playerbase as we are now and include them some how in the future direction of the game.

This isn't to suggest that anyone at FD aren't working their asses off or super enthusastic about their work but considering the desires of the player base can't be a bad thing. Call it a collaboration if you will.

edit:
a good example of my point which always struck me as being a little weird was when David talked about big game hunting.. Is this some vanity project for David, who blatantly doesn't have the time to play the game, or what? I can think of a gazzilion other aspects for the game that would be better to concentrate upon.

I watched a stream a while back from the guys who were doing Miscreated which is a bit of a DayZ sort of clone.. It really struck me what they said on stream, and they were taking suggestions.. 'we are making the game for you'.. I watched and listened in awe, wow, I thought, these guys get it.. They are making a game for its customers and have a target audience..
 
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So based upon my previous comments I issue a challenge to the developers..

Set yourself the goal of raising your rep with the Empire or Federation to aquire both the Cutter and the Corvette.

Assuming this challenge is taken up from start to finish please report back upon how you found the 'journey'..

*engaging Kryten smug mode* [haha]
 
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Steve Kirby

Lead Games Designer, Frontier Developments
Frontier
Hi guys,

I can confirm that a whole bunch of us Devs do play Elite Dangerous on the public servers in open during our spare time.

Not always in the same way as real players do, but thats one of the best things about Elite. You can play it the way you want to.

Are we all gaming gods? Are we all Elite Ranked? Not by a long shot, and compared to some of you guys, well i think we all know the answer. But we really enjoy playing in various different ways.

While we may not be the biggest hitters, we are out there. Most of the time we like to fly under the radar so as not to influence anything you guys are doing. We're just out there, flying around, making a living the same as you.

Personally I can say I try to play as much as I can so that I can understand where the game is and how it is being played.
I'm also quite proud that I've earned my ship the same way as the rest of you. Doing missions, trading, bounty hunting, exploring.
She's not much to look at, but she's all mine. All I have to do now is find a job and keep flying.

Feel free to wing up some time and fly safe.

Steve
 
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Hi Mr Kirby.

May I ask a favor? Can I finally get bright pink paintjobs for all the ships please? The same pink as the back end of the rose predator packs on the 2 Cobras but on the entire ship. I've been asking for years. I have 2 accounts. I'll buy them all twice. Please?

(Yes, I'm derailing this thread. Seems only fair since my thread was derailed by this very topic. But pink paintjobs are very important :p )
 
Hi guys,

I can confirm that a whole bunch of us Devs do play Elite Dangerous on the public servers in open during our spare time.

Not always in the same way as real players do, but thats one of the best things about Elite. You can play it the way you want to.

Are we all gaming gods? Are we all Elite Ranked? Not by a long shot, and compared to some of you guys, well i think we all know the answer. But we really enjoy playing in various different ways.

While we may not be the biggest hitters, we are out there. Most of the time we like to fly under the radar so as not to influence anything you guys are doing. We're just out there, flying around, making a living the same as you.

Personally I can say I try to play as much as I can so that I can understand where the game is and how it is being played.
I'm also quite proud that I've earned my ship the same way as the rest of you. Doing missions, trading, bounty hunting, exploring.
She's not much to look at, but she's all mine. All I have to do now is find a job and keep flying.

Feel free to wing up some time and fly safe.

Steve

Thanks for popping by Steve, if you ever need a wingman give me a shout ;) Also, thanks for all your collective hard work on the game, I do grumble here at times but ED has become somewhat of an unhealthy life long pursuit of mine.. Therefore you guys must be doing something right, even if I can't quite put my finger on it [haha]
 
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Hi guys,

I can confirm that a whole bunch of us Devs do play Elite Dangerous on the public servers in open during our spare time.

Not always in the same way as real players do, but thats one of the best things about Elite. You can play it the way you want to.

Are we all gaming gods? Are we all Elite Ranked? Not by a long shot, and compared to some of you guys, well i think we all know the answer. But we really enjoy playing in various different ways.

While we may not be the biggest hitters, we are out there. Most of the time we like to fly under the radar so as not to influence anything you guys are doing. We're just out there, flying around, making a living the same as you.

Personally I can say I try to play as much as I can so that I can understand where the game is and how it is being played.
I'm also quite proud that I've earned my ship the same way as the rest of you. Doing missions, trading, bounty hunting, exploring.
She's not much to look at, but she's all mine. All I have to do now is find a job and keep flying.

Feel free to wing up some time and fly safe.

Steve

Nice to see you drop by, CMDR. Also, nice post; I'm glad to hear that, and it's about what I expected. Just remember that there are plenty of us (me at least) who when they play ED can see all the love that goes into it, despite regrettable bugs and incomplete features.

Now please get back to work fixing those bugs and getting 2.3 out the hangar door:)

o7
 
Hi guys,

I can confirm that a whole bunch of us Devs do play Elite Dangerous on the public servers in open during our spare time.

Not always in the same way as real players do, but thats one of the best things about Elite. You can play it the way you want to.

Are we all gaming gods? Are we all Elite Ranked? Not by a long shot, and compared to some of you guys, well i think we all know the answer. But we really enjoy playing in various different ways.

While we may not be the biggest hitters, we are out there. Most of the time we like to fly under the radar so as not to influence anything you guys are doing. We're just out there, flying around, making a living the same as you.

Personally I can say I try to play as much as I can so that I can understand where the game is and how it is being played.
I'm also quite proud that I've earned my ship the same way as the rest of you. Doing missions, trading, bounty hunting, exploring.
She's not much to look at, but she's all mine. All I have to do now is find a job and keep flying.

Feel free to wing up some time and fly safe.

Steve

This doesn't bring me any hope that things will be made better if this is your answer.

"lead games designer doesn't play all the ways, just a few different ways." Flies under the radar so they don't participate in open play CGs or see what happens with PP. Doesn't see how broken it is the ability to have thousands of players affect the BGS without ever having to run into someone who might want to stop them.

Only way he can understand is by trying to play as much as they can. Which doesn't get you the whole picture if you don't play every facet of the game. Which you can't be expected to when you're also "supposedly" designing the systems in it.

All you have to do now is listen to the rest of the playerbase that isn't in this forum. And maybe we'll get a better game.

Until then your player counts are going to remain low, and you will lose a lot of players when SC comes out. And so far you haven't been able to retain a healthy enough population to make your game actually look populated in open even when instancing isn't broken (Cept it is broken 95% of the time).

You as a lead designer should already understand the mechanics your team put in to begin with. You should understand that running a python is going to get you killed. You should understand that trying to do anything in open with an un-engineered ship is suicidal. So many things you should understand yet are not on display for us to see.
 
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Hi guys,

I can confirm that a whole bunch of us Devs do play Elite Dangerous on the public servers in open during our spare time.

Not always in the same way as real players do, but thats one of the best things about Elite. You can play it the way you want to.

Are we all gaming gods? Are we all Elite Ranked? Not by a long shot, and compared to some of you guys, well i think we all know the answer. But we really enjoy playing in various different ways.

While we may not be the biggest hitters, we are out there. Most of the time we like to fly under the radar so as not to influence anything you guys are doing. We're just out there, flying around, making a living the same as you.

Personally I can say I try to play as much as I can so that I can understand where the game is and how it is being played.
I'm also quite proud that I've earned my ship the same way as the rest of you. Doing missions, trading, bounty hunting, exploring.
She's not much to look at, but she's all mine. All I have to do now is find a job and keep flying.

Feel free to wing up some time and fly safe.

Steve

Bravo.

Question: Have you *really* kidnapped all the mods, and are press-ganging them to help fix 2.2 (gofers, flashlight holders, pizza runs, etc.)? :)

Question: Is Power Play *really* what's behind this crazy election year?
 
You as a lead designer should already understand the mechanics your team put in to begin with. You should understand that running a python is going to get you killed. You should understand that trying to do anything in open with an un-engineered ship is suicidal.

Thanks for that mate, I just sprayed my coffee all over my gaming keyboard.. These things aren't cheap.
 
Hi guys,

I can confirm that a whole bunch of us Devs do play Elite Dangerous on the public servers in open during our spare time.

Not always in the same way as real players do, but thats one of the best things about Elite. You can play it the way you want to.

Are we all gaming gods? Are we all Elite Ranked? Not by a long shot, and compared to some of you guys, well i think we all know the answer. But we really enjoy playing in various different ways.

While we may not be the biggest hitters, we are out there. Most of the time we like to fly under the radar so as not to influence anything you guys are doing. We're just out there, flying around, making a living the same as you.

Personally I can say I try to play as much as I can so that I can understand where the game is and how it is being played.
I'm also quite proud that I've earned my ship the same way as the rest of you. Doing missions, trading, bounty hunting, exploring.
She's not much to look at, but she's all mine. All I have to do now is find a job and keep flying.

Feel free to wing up some time and fly safe.

Steve

/Thread ... thanks for the great game :)
 
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