Why Elite's riddles and story do not work for me

[Kubicide]

I do wonder: What tools would we need ingame to solve more challenging scientific puzzles and enhance exploration?

• Graph/Sonograph displays?
• Surface scanner addons like a small camera turret you observe the planet surface with different filters?
• Orbit computer to set coordinates and height above surface to keep?
• Probes?

EDIT:

That is what I mean. It would be so awesome if explorers had tools to analyze radiation and planet surfaces, including probes to not randomly fly around systems while exploring. These tools could easily be used for riddles, too.

Now you're hitting on the topic of creating content, real content! Imagine if RNGineers offered real crafting where one would collect things to build / craft such as new sensors like you described to help unlock these clues. You'd face choices over what type of scanner to build. Then possibly upgrade it over time with new capabilities or added performance to help solve the mysteries. Imagine that: using gameplay + new content = real entertainment.

This is where I see a lot of frustration coming from in that there's been so many opportunities for FDev to add real cool stuff to the game but these opportunities are missed over and over again. Like RNGineers: what we got was a time-grind based, leveled or walled, complicated gambling mechanism that simply modifies stuff already in game, and that expanded nothing in the sense of adding or expanding to the gameplay. If anything the release simply made the game way out of balance while adding nothing truly new. (One could fight harder now or die quicker, and jump a bit farther, but what else?)

Crafting sensors to scan for things like firmware or crafting special long-jump engines that could maybe do 100+ Lys (using certain fuels, etc.), etc., would have been great. Instead we got a new GUI thing to watch randomize tweaks to existing gear or game mechanics. Sad. [blah]

 

[Leo Sagan]

We need more game mechanics

This, plain and simple. I really REALLY hope the lack of game mechanics is the reason why FD is struggling at the moment. Because if there is someone at the helm who really think this is good story telling / dev game strategy, then we're doomed.

I wonder if the pacing for this is way too slow..

My GF actually pointed this out to me a few days ago : I was showing her a screenshot of the third crash site and she said : "wait ? the aliens aren't there yet in your boring game? It's been more than a full year since you showed me the probe things !"

Seriously FD ...

 

[Some1else]

First let me say that I would very much like to be more involved in this aspect of ED. But I have some problems with how it is being presented to the community.

My "2 cents" on this starts with the amount of reading required. I'm a slow reader, and I did not buy, and start playing ED so as to spend half my "game time" reading. This includes the information on the forums about the Canonn, the Formidine rift, and Galnet. Does anyone know what a summery is? And my $100.00 cellphone can read to me while I'm driving a 2004 car. But somehow a 500mil credit spaceship in 3302 can't. ( I know it's not a good comparison, it's just to make a point)

The other problem I have with much of this "lore", riddle, clues part of the game is that is seems to require multiple players working together. Which is fine, but it does leave the "lone wolf" player out in the cold.

The potential for this aspect of the game is huge, but the presentation, and implementation is lacking in game functionality for many players. I think sometimes people who enjoy something forget that others may not find the same enjoyment that they do. i.e. Cypher's! Now I realize that many folks enjoy cypher's, and that's great. But many people don't, and for them a cypher might as well be a "Wrong Way" or "Do Not Enter" sign. Many a game has done very well with clue's and riddle's without having to go the extra step of hiding them in a second layer of "discovery" that requires third party tools.

LLaP

S1E

 

[Kayweg]

I think one of the problems is that the story is revealed for everyone at the same time.
The minute somebody found jaques or the relic site, the search is over.
It's done, your efforts end.
Look at classic MMORPGs for a second (and i'm not saying ED should be one).
Any storyline, puzzle or riddle is only for you to discover/solve as you progress. Everyone will go through the same content alright, but it's for you as an individual to gradually experience it.
At least if you want to and can keep yourself from google'ing everything.
And the content has already been made, it's there, there's no waiting for the developer to catch up with the community.
(Of course this is an approach that is extremely linear and set in stone, without any player actions influencing what's going to happen next.)
One of the problems FD seem to be facing:
They put it in there, someone figures it out within a day, and the whole thing then comes to a grinding halt because the followup hasn't been prepared.
There also is a lack of secondary side stories, there could be dozens, even hundreds, of smaller and branching developments going on all the time...and all over the place.
But no, it's always just that one thing, and that's it.
Stop and go, that doesn't feel like an "ongoing", let alone fluent, story progression.
My worst suspicion ?
They don't even always know themselves where they want to take it and just make up stuff as they go along.
To FD's excuse, what i described and what i criticized for lacking would need a lot of money, work hours and talent to bring into the game.
Perhaps we just need to accept that this is beyond their capabilities.

 

[Drelthar]

Agreed, I never liked having to solely rely on External Sources and having to use technical Analysis Software to solve something that should be 100.0% solvable using in-Game Tools provided.

But the very moment I learned it all came from the Teaser Videos, Video & Audio Analysis Software - and (most importantly) visiting the Site clearly demonstrated that the Ship Scanners were never supposed to find them (Visual pickup only), I knew all I had to know.

Another "Central Planning" pseudo-Discovery, one which was scheduled to occur in a few months.

So for as long as we aren't allowed to make such Discoveries the real way and utilizing only Ship Equipment and Scanners, that entire "Story" is utterly irrelevant to me.

Wake me up when
- our Discovery Scanners actually display "Unknown Anomaly detected" so at least we know we got a Planet worth investigating further
- our Ship Equipment learns to Analyze Data that we find on such a Planet
- the Result permits us to solve any puzzles/riddles using onboard or in-game Equipment

I have no use for "Central Planning" pseudo-Stories and "Discoveries". I want a realistic chance to do actual Exploration with actual Discoveries, not one pinned on a scheduled timeline.
I'll hence leave those fake and artificially planted Events for others to have fun with, I simply don't "roll over" when I'm told or some Central Planner decided the time is right. I don't work that way.

PS.
On the positive side - if anything - I was proven right once again.
When something is supposed to be discovered, someone will throw a "Spawn = Enabled" switch on a Server, plant Teasers in Vidoes, place GALnet articles or downright pinpoint Fingers right here in the Forum.
For me that means : No Action Required, saved me tons of wasted hours chasing non-existent ghosts.
After all, it'll appear and come all by itself when FDev decides so. The sole benefit of Central-Planning. However, obviously this doesn't have anything to do with actual Exploration or actual Discovery.

So whenever I venture into the black, I do so fully knowing there's nothing out there to be found. Brings peace of mind and surely makes carrying Cargo Racks and even the SRV somewhat optional.

Nailed it, super glued it, blu tacked it, and welded it spot on.

 

[Cosmos]

I think one of the problems is that the story is revealed for everyone at the same time.
The minute somebody found jaques or the relic site, the search is over.
It's done, your efforts end.
Look at classic MMORPGs for a second (and i'm not saying ED should be one).
Any storyline, puzzle or riddle is only for you to discover/solve as you progress. Everyone will go through the same content alright, but it's for you as an individual to gradually experience it.
At least if you want to and can keep yourself from google'ing everything.
And the content has already been made, it's there, there's no waiting for the developer to catch up with the community.
(Of course this is an approach that is extremely linear and set in stone, without any player actions influencing what's going to happen next.)
One of the problems FD seem to be facing:
They put it in there, someone figures it out within a day, and the whole thing then comes to a grinding halt because the followup hasn't been prepared.
There also is a lack of secondary side stories, there could be dozens, even hundreds, of smaller and branching developments going on all the time...and all over the place.
But no, it's always just that one thing, and that's it.
Stop and go, that doesn't feel like an "ongoing", let alone fluent, story progression.
My worst suspicion ?
They don't even always know themselves where they want to take it and just make up stuff as they go along.
To FD's excuse, what i described and what i criticized for lacking would need a lot of money, work hours and talent to bring into the game.
Perhaps we just need to accept that this is beyond their capabilities.

Maybe if they sell enough coloured lazers they can afford to make some more content. I'm getting cynical, I best go for a walk and air myself out.

 

[Leo Sagan]

My worst suspicion ?
They don't even always know themselves where they want to take it and just make up stuff as they go along.

Not too sure about that TBH : they even hired Drew Wagar to write the story while it's unfolding. Granted, it's probably very "uncharted territory". Still, when it comes to the Aliens, I'm naive enough to believe that they know where they are going. At least to some extend. But the story's pace and the narrative tools are IMHO as terrible as they can get.

 

[Drelthar]

First off, I think it is disingenuous to state that all your hear in response is 'I don't know' and 'not my job', there have been many suggestions, (not exclusive to this thread though there are some here).

In my opinion there is much that could be done:- The following is on a 'one mission per commander rule'

2000 missions 'spawn' at random locations across the bubble - these missions are to retrieve data from ships destroyed by unknown means in USS's and the like. Upon retrieval of this data it would all need to be taken to 1 or 2 research stations, maybe a Canonn site, maybe Sirius Corp.

At the same time, another 2000 missions spawn across the bubble at random locations, 'Alien ruins discovered in x, y z system, exact info on locale incomplete due to discovery satelite destruction'. Players head to the system, explore it and retrieve date or artifacts from the various sites. As above these need to be taken to various research centres or stations.

At the same time, 'Notorious pirates have stolen valuable alien date from Federation/Empire Research station x, y or z', players must track down, destroy these pirates and retrieve the date.

At the same time, missions spawn, 'unusual asteroid field detected near sector 'blah', miners head out there to mine previously unknown metals and minerals, all taken to research etc etc.

Once all that is done it's onto the next branch....(I won't go on you get the picture).

While the above does not involve everyone it is far more inclusive than the current 'codes and ciphers' implementation. The above involves, discovery, combat, mining and delivery, it gives players a much greater sense that 'it could be them', of 'I contributed to this thing' of 'I'm involved, yay!.

This would be great. Really great.

 

[Martind Forlon]

+ rep to OP. I personally do not have issue with riddles how are done, but it would be really awesome if there is more discoveries for everyone. It can be only coincidence, but in one from my last play evenings I got TIP OFF message about potentially crashed ship and I really found crashed DBX on coordinates which was given to me on heavy gravity planet. I enjoyed it very, very much. I only hope that something like this can be used as corner stone exploration feature and offer something like this for players regularly.

 

[KiDra]

Now you're hitting on the topic of creating content, real content! [...]

If you think about it, why do games like DCS or Farming Simulator work and keep people playing? It is the feeling of properly operating a machine with close to 99% of its features. I played both and I would love to get back into DCS when Eagle Dynamics finally delivers the 2.0 update.

In ED mining is not paying off that well, but it is still fun, because the mechanics feel to be all in place. Send prospector limpets to analyze the asteroids for their content, aim mining lasers and let limpets collect the fragments, then you chose what to process and keep. It feels like a believable chain of steps to get the job done.

Exploration feels crippled. Many riddles cater to science and exploration while we have an empty toolbox ingame. That is why we have to rely on out-of-game tools.

When I explored the ruins it felt like proper exploration, because the SRV got a wave scanner and a turret that is stabilized. I set steering to the rudder pedals, so I can steer with my feet while I sway around in VR with the turret and collect data with the data scanner. There are two types of scanners in the SRV and it works. Combine that with the vehicle controls of jumping over obstacles and fine controls when descending, getting just the right amount of thrust to not hit the ground to hard and it is a perfectly well working combination.

The exploration SHIP is just missing too much, like maybe a turret camera with filters and some spectrographs or whatnot.

 

[Kayweg]

Not too sure about that TBH : they even hired Drew Wagar to write the story while it's unfolding. Granted, it's probably very "uncharted territory". Still, when it comes to the Aliens, I'm naive enough to believe that they know where they are going. At least to some extend. But the story's pace and the narrative tools are IMHO as terrible as they can get.

Well, fair 'nuff, that's why i phrased it "don't even always know...".
Of course, allowing for some creative freedom to be able to change the course of events is a good thing.
But that can also easily be interpreted as lack of direction, and from where i sit i can't tell the two apart.
And nothing against good Mr. Wagar, but i think the main thrust of the criticism in this thread isn't so much aimed at the non-existence of lore/story, as it is at ED's lacking ability to incorporate that lore/story in a seamless way via ingame means.
While not a lore "hardcore" by any means, in games like ESO, TSW, BDO and Wildstar i DO read knowledge and lore entries, journals, books etc. Not all of them, but many.
Because i stumble upon them naturally while playing, can digest them in small bites and many of them are interestingly written and add to my understanding of the background story.
I miss that here, it helps believability, understanding and, dare i say, immersion.

 

[Ben_BigBen]

Seeing as the thread seems to be taken out of context (and it started so well, with a reasonable point, put reasonably ) so I might as well wade in ...

... you could actually have the puzzle-solving completely separate from the game, oh wait GCHQ do that every year https://www.gchq.gov.uk/news-article/christmas-card-cryptographic-twist-charity does the puzzle look familiar ? - I know people have joked about it but I think the whole thing is a recruitment drive from GCHQ and this is the type of stuff they put out to find the top 0.1% of the country's thinkers ( I don't qualify as I only have a lowly 136 IQ - so not even MENSA standard)

After someone solves the puzzle, you could then have GalNet say "another discovery found - come and have a go at this GC" and it would still be the same experience 99% of Elite players.

As I said at the beginning I've being enjoying trying to solve the puzzles on the threadnought and this is not about saying that it should be removed from the game, and it's not about being a special snowflake either - it's about having some variety/surprises "In Game" that challenge you to think about how to approach them. the bar is set low, doesn't need to be special and could use existing game mechanics to perform along themes - yes they could be scripted but if I as a Commander only got to see them once it wouldn't matter would it ?

 

[Wylie28]

That's the appeal of the game for many players. Real puzzles and a realtime story. If you don't like it this game just isn't for you as its not going to change. The game is designed for the types of players that like these things.

 

[KiDra]

Seeing as the thread seems to be taken out of context [...]

Luckily not entirely. I suspect the topic hits a nerve with how the discussion "broadened", but one can at least hope that Frontier finds some valuable input here. I cannot quote all good posts from this thread in my OP, but I at least added one that sums up the general problem quite well to me.

There is a lot of fishing in the dark as we do not know what 2.4 will bring. One issue is about the quality and kind of riddles itself and the other is that the tools needed to solve them should all be ingame. I feel we have contributions here that at least offer solutions for either side of the problem and Frontier can find some if they care to read this thread.

That's the appeal of the game for many players. Real puzzles and a realtime story. If you don't like it this game just isn't for you as its not going to change. The game is designed for the types of players that like these things.

Now with all due respect, that is nonsense as it just throws a blanket over issues the game has for real. Frontier does many things right with Elite. Very good even, but not everything and that is not per se a problem on the side of the player.

 

[Leo Sagan]

But that can also easily be interpreted as lack of direction, and from where i sit i can't tell the two apart.

Which is, let's face it, really not right :-(

And nothing against good Mr. Wagar, but i think the main thrust of the criticism in this thread isn't so much aimed at the non-existence of lore/story, as it is at ED's lacking ability to incorporate that lore/story in a seamless way via ingame means.

Exactly. Not saying the lore / story is perfect, but even if it were, the way FD is telling it is ... just bad. It could be improved so much, giving a larger part of the player base a much better experience ...

 

[Kayweg]

Dang you quoted me before i managed to get his name right.

 

[Leo Sagan]

That's the appeal of the game for many players. Real puzzles and a realtime story. If you don't like it this game just isn't for you as its not going to change. The game is designed for the types of players that like these things.

Hey Wylie !
How did you escape from my ignore list ?
* Ploooonk *
Again. *sigh* those php forums can't be trusted

 

[Theodrid]

That's the appeal of the game for many players. Real puzzles and a realtime story. If you don't like it this game just isn't for you as its not going to change. The game is designed for the types of players that like these things.

I'm sorry but I'm not having that, this storyline needs to appeal to the playerbase, not the select few. This IS the game for me and I want to be involved in the story without needing to conjure up an interest in becoming Alan Turing's secretary.

 

[BigFW]

Agreed, I never liked having to solely rely on External Sources and having to use technical Analysis Software to solve something that should be 100.0% solvable using in-Game Tools provided.

But the very moment I learned it all came from the Teaser Videos, Video & Audio Analysis Software - and (most importantly) visiting the Site clearly demonstrated that the Ship Scanners were never supposed to find them (Visual pickup only), I knew all I had to know.

Another "Central Planning" pseudo-Discovery, one which was scheduled to occur in a few months.

So for as long as we aren't allowed to make such Discoveries the real way and utilizing only Ship Equipment and Scanners, that entire "Story" is utterly irrelevant to me.

Wake me up when
- our Discovery Scanners actually display "Unknown Anomaly detected" so at least we know we got a Planet worth investigating further
- our Ship Equipment learns to Analyze Data that we find on such a Planet
- the Result permits us to solve any puzzles/riddles using onboard or in-game Equipment

I have no use for "Central Planning" pseudo-Stories and "Discoveries". I want a realistic chance to do actual Exploration with actual Discoveries, not one pinned on a scheduled timeline.
I'll hence leave those fake and artificially planted Events for others to have fun with, I simply don't "roll over" when I'm told or some Central Planner decided the time is right. I don't work that way.

PS.
On the positive side - if anything - I was proven right once again.
When something is supposed to be discovered, someone will throw a "Spawn = Enabled" switch on a Server, plant Teasers in Vidoes, place GALnet articles or downright pinpoint Fingers right here in the Forum.
For me that means : No Action Required, saved me tons of wasted hours chasing non-existent ghosts.
After all, it'll appear and come all by itself when FDev decides so. The sole benefit of Central-Planning. However, obviously this doesn't have anything to do with actual Exploration or actual Discovery.

So whenever I venture into the black, I do so fully knowing there's nothing out there to be found. Brings peace of mind and surely makes carrying Cargo Racks and even the SRV somewhat optional.

Yep, great summary and I think I have now woken up to this. I don't think I want to be excited by watching youtube discoveries any more. I want the game to guide me there if I so choose.

I was all excited by the thought that we could go out into the black and stumble across something. Even more so with 2.2. Then I thought the chance of that is probably very small given the amount of systems out there. So I need clues and mechanics in game. In game.

So after foolishly heading to a few systems I tagged a while back on a round about route to Barnards I think I'll swing by the known site and then head back to the bubble and put the foolish notion of discovery to bed. Bye Bye space Indiana Jones and hello Space Taxi Driver.

 

[Leo Sagan]

Dang you quoted me before i managed to get his name right.

Fear not my friend, I edited *my* quote to reflect *your* edition

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Bye Bye space Indiana Jones and hello Space Taxi Driver.

Looks at FD in silence...

* sigh *

Told you so ...