Why Elite's riddles and story do not work for me

[Theodrid]

I am going to have to at least partially disagree with that. They seem to be casting the skillset net fairly wide.

Let's think back:

The clues that led to the treasure hunt spanned a wide number of topics, including mythology and astronomy
Audio experts, not cryptographers found the initial spectrographs
People who do video or use photoshop have cleaned up images
the Rift mystery is seemingly a lot of word-play and riddles, not ciphers
The nonograms are a type of logic puzzle, not a cipher
Flying over planets to find stuff was not a cipher
The find of the alien ruins was down to a bit of trigonometry in lining systems up
The right system in the treasure hunt was found by simple exploration: Checking if possible systems had the right number of planets and main bodies
The braille was...braille

People keep focusing on the 'codebreaking', but most of it is not cryptography at all. Certainly no pattern analysis has been done. The first three Numbers Stations used a simple A=1 code, so yes: It was a code, but in this case no specialised knowledge of cryptography was needed.

Many have required specialised skill to a greater or lesser degree, but it is not just in a single field.

A bit like Bletchley. they didn't get professional cryptographers in. they got a massive variety of very clever people from a wide variety of fields.

You are probably correct that I oversimplified the issue a bit with my 'codes and ciphers' remark, but in my opinion my point still stands. Even if we take into account all that you mention, the scope for 'intelligence', 'genius' and the ability to think outside the box goes well beyond just those fields too. There has still been a narrow vision from Frontier, look at your list again, many of those subject matters are aligned with each other, (though obviously not exclusive to), many are quite similar, trigonometry and astronomy are very closely related, word play, braille and more are closely aligned too. I don;t blame you for embellishing your list a little to 'prove a point' and as I said I concede I oversimplified it a bit, but lets not be narrow minded here, you can still keep all that, no problem at all, lets have things running parallel to it though.

You go on to say 'no special cartography knowledge was needed', for some of the puzzle, again, this is fine but an interest is needed, I will say it again, it is more than possible to be interested in the story but not in the methods it is being delivered in.

 

[Leo Sagan]

Not everything is for everyone.

So basically you want to keep the main plot in E : D to a small subset of the community. And let me guess, you're part of this subset, am I right ?

Thanks for showing your true colours on this one.

 

[Cosmo]

I like how in No Man's Sky there's mini-puzzles that each player can solve and tangible rewards for finding stuff.

I made a suggestion thread here.

 

[Siranui]

you can still keep all that, no problem at all, lets have things running parallel to it though.

Yup; I've been saying for pages that it's a good idea to use Tip-Off type missions (expanded upon and made more intricate as we go on), Galnet news and CGs for story reasons, as a part of bringing story to players. However, I don't think it viable to run the main plot reveals via such means. Reason being, it'll be solved in less than an hour. Then we're back to drumming our fingers, waiting for the next point release. If people feel left out and robbed because they hadn't got a chance to get in and participate now, making the puzzles a lot easier and more of a series of fetch-quests is not going to improve things.


I'm also trying to bear in mind that we don't pay subscriptions, so the solution of FD just dishing out a constant string of plot-orientated mini-game missions complete with new and engaging mini-game mechanics each time, isn't really viable. And we should remember that the 'big' puzzles are as much for FD's benefit as they are ours: They generate a lot of column-inches in the tech media and mainstream media. They also - in my experience - fascinate people who are non-gamers, and generate interest outside of the gamer community (there are people who do not play Elite and in some cases do not even own a computer who come over my house and ask for the latest 'news' as regards conspiracy in mystery in ED). If we paid a tenner a month, I would be asking a lot more from them as regards story missions. With the current pricing model and array of things already on the 'to do' list, I cannot expect too much in the way of custom mechanics to back up the storyline. Who is to say that 'space legs' or landing on ELWs should take a back seat to this?

 

[Theodrid]

Yup; I've been saying for pages that it's a good idea to use Tip-Off type missions (expanded upon and made more intricate as we go on), Galnet news and CGs for story reasons, as a part of bringing story to players. However, I don't think it viable to run the main plot reveals via such means. Reason being, it'll be solved in less than an hour. Then we're back to drumming our fingers, waiting for the next point release. If people feel left out and robbed because they hadn't got a chance to get in and participate now, making the puzzles a lot easier and more of a series of fetch-quests is not going to improve things.


I'm also trying to bear in mind that we don't pay subscriptions, so the solution of FD just dishing out a constant string of plot-orientated mini-game missions complete with new and engaging mini-game mechanics each time, isn't really viable. And we should remember that the 'big' puzzles are as much for FD's benefit as they are ours: They generate a lot of column-inches in the tech media and mainstream media. They also - in my experience - fascinate people who are non-gamers, and generate interest outside of the gamer community (there are people who do not play Elite and in some cases do not even own a computer who come over my house and ask for the latest 'news' as regards conspiracy in mystery in ED). If we paid a tenner a month, I would be asking a lot more from them as regards story missions. With the current pricing model and array of things already on the 'to do' list, I cannot expect too much in the way of custom mechanics to back up the storyline. Who is to say that 'space legs' or landing on ELWs should take a back seat to this?

The thing is we've kind of been through this in this thread already, it doesn't simply have to be the current implementation or 'solved in an hour' puzzles. I have to disagree with you too when you say that missions relating to the alien story and the main professions in this game 'wouldn't solve anything', I think it would, it would solve inclusiveness right off the bat, I'm also sure, if the will was there, that Frontier could release and free up this kind of gameplay on a regular enough basis that also wouldn't harm space legs and the like.

Some of the ideas and proposed changes in this thread are not beyond Frontier or overly complicated and convoluted. Some of the proposals can be achieved irrespective of the payment model they have chosen. All that is required is a little more willingness and imagination from Frontier, (possibly with community input), and an open mind.

 

[Leo Sagan]

Yup; I've been saying for pages that it's a good idea to use Tip-Off type missions (expanded upon and made more intricate as we go on), Galnet news and CGs for story reasons, as a part of bringing story to players. However, I don't think it viable to run the main plot reveals via such means.

Can you define "story" and "main plot reveals" in this context please ?

Reason being, it'll be solved in less than an hour.

A CG can last weeks. The ruins were found in a day thanks to the trailer. I don't think either method is bullet proof in this area.

Then we're back to drumming our fingers, waiting for the next point release.

Which is already the case. It seems to me that you're saying that nothing should change for fear of reaching the very same dead end we are already in. I suppose that's not what you meant. Can you clarify please ?

If people feel left out and robbed because they hadn't got a chance to get in and participate now, making the puzzles a lot easier and more of a series of fetch-quests is not going to improve things.

What was mainly asked in this thread was to keep the current riddles as they are. What makes you assume any one want them dumbed down. As for me, all I ask is other ways to get involved in the Alien story line than collectively solve riddles that I find boring. I'd be very opposed to the removal of the current riddles.

I'm also trying to bear in mind that we don't pay subscriptions, so the solution of FD just dishing out a constant string of plot-orientated mini-game missions complete with new and engaging mini-game mechanics each time, isn't really viable.

Which is why I made a proposal requiring almost no development with current assets / mechanics in game. As I said, it is far from ideal but would still open the main plot to everyone in an active way, without (of course) remove anything from the current riddles.

And we should remember that the 'big' puzzles are as much for FD's benefit as they are ours

Your benefit, not mine : I didn't even check the ruins, I already knew I'd find nothing there. At the moment, the main storyline is remote and pretty useless to me. Which is fine, unless I'm one of too many.

They generate a lot of column-inches in the tech media and mainstream media.

AFAIK, I saw it twice on the news so far. Maybe it happened more often than that : any source ? Not to say this is not good, it definitely is but not earth shaking either.

They also - in my experience - fascinate people who are non-gamers, and generate interest outside of the gamer community (there are people who do not play Elite and in some cases do not even own a computer who come over my house and ask for the latest 'news' as regards conspiracy in mystery in ED).

It seems that in order to fascinate non customers who could potentially buy the game, you want to make sure the alien mysteries in the game keep locked in a niche community of hardcore puzzle solvers. Even if it means alienating the majority of the already paying customers. Don't you think that this logic might seem ... odd ?

If we paid a tenner a month, I would be asking a lot more from them as regards story missions. With the current pricing model and array of things already on the 'to do' list, I cannot expect too much in the way of custom mechanics to back up the storyline. Who is to say that 'space legs' or landing on ELWs should take a back seat to this?

The economic model was chosen by FD but honestly, taking into account the original game + the expansion + the micro transactions, I think they can deliver a few targeted CG which require near to zero new content. Or if the money is THAT tight, why should they spend it on the riddles themselves when they only satisfy a small fraction of the paying customers ?

Frankly, it seems to me that you're telling all those who don't have fun with your favourite gameplay to keep quiet and still pay for the next expansion, so you can get your treasure hunter kicks. Do you really think this can fly ?

- - - Updated - - -

I like how in No Man's Sky there's mini-puzzles that each player can solve and tangible rewards for finding stuff.

I made a suggestion thread here.

Awesome : just voted

 

[Siranui]

The thing is we've kind of been through this in this thread already, it doesn't simply have to be the current implementation or 'solved in an hour' puzzles. I have to disagree with you too when you say that missions relating to the alien story and the main professions in this game 'wouldn't solve anything', I think it would, it would solve inclusiveness right off the bat, I'm also sure, if the will was there, that Frontier could release and free up this kind of gameplay on a regular enough basis that also wouldn't harm space legs and the like.

I don't know how puzzles can be simplified and *not* solved by someone in a ridiculously short period, given the crowd-sourcing base. I'm open to ideas. Bear in mind that any step-puzzle with a 'now go 10,000LY' stage will just cause a lot of complaint about 'grind' and FD 'padding out' the puzzle just to slow down players.
Then - if it was a 'first find' - one person would have contributed, possibly before many commanders even logged on and knew the puzzle was there.

I'm also wary of this being 'use once' content. How will these things relate to players coming to the game in five years? I appreciate current puzzles are 'use once', but they have not required in-game mini-games of the type being asked for, and they served the purpose of being enormous marketing tools, which kind of paid for itself. That said, making it a designated part of a point release to make a variety of mini-games would be fine, although players might not see all the mechanics for the whole season, making it an investment in patience as far as the players are concerned.

 

[Theodrid]

I don't know how puzzles can be simplified and *not* solved by someone in a ridiculously short period, given the crowd-sourcing base. I'm open to ideas. Bear in mind that any step-puzzle with a 'now go 10,000LY' stage will just cause a lot of complaint about 'grind' and FD 'padding out' the puzzle just to slow down players.
Then - if it was a 'first find' - one person would have contributed, possibly before many commanders even logged on and knew the puzzle was there.

I'm also wary of this being 'use once' content. How will these things relate to players coming to the game in five years? I appreciate current puzzles are 'use once', but they have not required in-game mini-games of the type being asked for, and they served the purpose of being enormous marketing tools, which kind of paid for itself. That said, making it a designated part of a point release to make a variety of mini-games would be fine, although players might not see all the mechanics for the whole season, making it an investment in patience as far as the players are concerned.

My proposal earlier in the thread outlines how the current missions system could be used as another avenue into this storyline, and again bare in mind, it does not have to simply involve hard or easy puzzles, there are other gameplay avenues available! Onto your part regarding new players, as with the current implementation, I would not expect any player investing in Elite D in 5 years would expect access to the start of this story, that wouldn't make sense anyway, said player could be interdicted by Thargoids on his way to the first, 'Who are these mysterious aliens site', it doesn't follow.

It is purely speculative of course but the more avenues and variety that Frontier add to this story it is likely that maybe even more exposure and interest would follow, including that from the media such as the BBC. As for your other point regarding 'investment in patience', that is kind of where we are now so there is really nothing to lose as far as that is concerned.

 

[ArchEmperor]

My proposal earlier in the thread outlines how the current missions system could be used as another avenue into this storyline, and again bare in mind, it does not have to simply involve hard or easy puzzles, there are other gameplay avenues available! Onto your part regarding new players, as with the current implementation, I would not expect any player investing in Elite D in 5 years would expect access to the start of this story, that wouldn't make sense anyway, said player could be interdicted by Thargoids on his way to the first, 'Who are these mysterious aliens site', it doesn't follow.

It is purely speculative of course but the more avenues and variety that Frontier add to this story it is likely that maybe even more exposure and interest would follow, including that from the media such as the BBC. As for your other point regarding 'investment in patience', that is kind of where we are now so there is really nothing to lose as far as that is concerned.

BBC should really make a program about Elite D. How the community learns advanced science through the game and using collaboration to solve hard scientific puzzles.

And the methods learned in ED about finding alien life could be used in real life when actual interstellar signals are found. A whole new generation of space explorers are born!

 

[Archvillain]

I LOVE that puzzles need to be solved outside the game because that's exactly how real science puzzles are tackled - you go out and get the data in the field, then you bring it back and work on it in the lab, and no one person will have the all the knowledge and equipment to do every part of analysis, so you collaborate with others.

It's just like NASA. It's just like archaeology.

This game allows us to create and use real-world labs to solve puzzles as if they were real-world discoveries.
Elite offers plenty of entirely-in-game activities, but this little bonus extra side of Elite is above and beyond what most other games offer - they should absolutely build on science-simulation gameplay and do more of it.

(Just so long as the puzzles CAN be solved - none of that early unsolvable-until-we-update-the-game rubbish. Incomplete teaser garbage just punishes people for caring and teaches us not to bother. Finding Jaques was an example of doing it right because it was legitimately in the game just waiting to be found by anyone, not removed and impossible to find and added back in as some story event)

 

[Starstrydur]

Hmm, assuming you mean this, which is where your link goes : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...-eyes-to-see!-quot-Revised-Explorers-in-Elite

I am not sure I see how it helps with the issue.

For example, it proposes a system where the galaxy has a "fog of war" and you find new planets by pointing in a direction and doing a blind jump to see if you hit a system. That is just not going to happen at this stage.

The in system discovery mechanisms are very similar to what we have now, again I don't see how this solves anything.

I totally agree exploration mechanics need working on but given where we are I'm not seeing that document as being very applicable.

Umm No It actually goes to this link https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/307467-Enhancing-exploration-mechanics-a-detailed-proposal?p=4771452&viewfull=1#post4771452


You know, the one he linked to.

 

[Starstrydur]

Nobody has said that. You're just being deliberately inflammatory or playing the martyr. Stop it.

What *has* been said though is that to be involved you have to GET involved, rather than standing at the sidelines, not wanting to be involved, not participating at all, and then saying at the end 'but I could not participate'.

Try it.
Or engage with it in some way; even if its just the brute force work of searching with mk I eyeballs.

I didn't know what a nonogram was until last week, either. I'm not a member of Canonn. But I most certainly was on the right planet when the ruins were found, contributing as much as anyone else, because I was equipped with eyes and a spaceship. I could have literally been anyone else, with any skill set. And all I did was read a post and decide in my own mind that I thought it was a promising theory, and that I was happy to spend a few hours of time going and seeing if I could help, without promise of reward or a prize.

That is literally all it took to be right there at the end of several mysteries and to feel a part of the excitement: Being a set of anonymous boots on the ground. no out of game tools or knowledge required; just my willingness to throw a few hours at a perhaps futile goal.

People like you cannot seem to understand that there is no way to get involved when it is 90% out of game play and the only thing to do at all is to see some thing in game where you push one button, and then wait for puzzel masters to tell people where they found the next thing that you can go to and push a button.

I don't want to take all your puzzles away but FD needs to find a way to let make general discovery better for the majority via more exploration tools. Why is that so hard for some to understand? They keep coming back and speak as though they have read nothing in this thread.

 

[Drelthar]

The argument that the story elements would be solved in half an hour if they were in game in some way is pretty flawed, considering a recent puzzle was solved within a day of release anyway.


You can't predict how long it will take any puzzle to be solved, no matter how it's presented.


People aren't saying these puzzles shouldn't exist.

People are asking for in game elements and puzzles and systems and things to be IN THE GAME so anyone can follow it.

These things are vastly more open, as anyone who doesn't spoiler it for themselves (like me, for instance, I still haven't spoilered any of the things since the barnacle, and am trying to figure them out myself.... it's not going well I can tell you.) can actually have some interesting gameplay, in the game, that leads to some interesting things.

Tip offs are great. More things like that.

That's basically what's being said.

 

[Leo Sagan]

I don't want to take all your puzzles away but FD needs to find a way to let make general discovery better for the majority via more exploration tools. Why is that so hard for some to understand? They keep coming back and speak as though they have read nothing in this thread.

Maybe the puzzle solvers aren't as smart as they claim to be

Just teasing guys, just teasing.

Besides as long as they keep bumping the thread, I'm fine with their non responses

 

[Starstrydur]

You are the minority and you do not care about immersion, your statement makes this clear. If you are talking about realistic science regarding the game and its mechanics, your statement does not make sense because in reality what exploration space ship would have no active scientific instrumentation to examine and analyze anomalies?

- - - Updated - - -

I LOVE that puzzles need to be solved outside the game because that's exactly how real science puzzles are tackled - you go out and get the data in the field, then you bring it back and work on it in the lab, and no one person will have the all the knowledge and equipment to do every part of analysis, so you collaborate with others.

It's just like NASA. It's just like archaeology.

This game allows us to create and use real-world labs to solve puzzles as if they were real-world discoveries.
Elite offers plenty of entirely-in-game activities, but this little bonus extra side of Elite is above and beyond what most other games offer - they should absolutely build on science-simulation gameplay and do more of it.

(Just so long as the puzzles CAN be solved - none of that early unsolvable-until-we-update-the-game rubbish. Incomplete teaser garbage just punishes people for caring and teaches us not to bother. Finding Jaques was an example of doing it right because it was legitimately in the game just waiting to be found by anyone, not removed and impossible to find and added back in as some story event)

You are the minority and you do not care about immersion, your statement makes this clear. If you are talking about realistic science regarding the game and its mechanics, your statement does not make sense because in reality what exploration space ship would have no active scientific instrumentation to examine and analyze anomalies?


In fact to me this line of thinking is so out of step I liken it to say a science fiction movie running into a problem where they must figure out a solution to a problem to stay alive and then they cut to ("I think I can find some helpful information on the internet. Lets pause the movie for a moment while I google about this type of encryption. Yes I have found something, ok let's continue where we left off"), now show me that code again.

Keep the puzzles as parallel story elements if it means so much to this minority, but please give the majority a way to do it in game, and have each of the story lines in their own separate sections in galnet .[yesnod]

 

[ArchEmperor]

You are the minority and you do not care about immersion, your statement makes this clear.

Poll, or it didn't happen.

 

[Don_Von_Hulio]

IF you could do it ingame that wouldnt make it fun and engaging. Dont you know they only let time sinks and grind fests into the product?

 

[Azriphail]

Earlier in this thread I posted a hypothesis that FD may be providing a tool kit of mechanics that might be extended or interwoven to provide deeper story telling mechanics and puzzles for individulas to uncover. A few more recent posts (sorry I haven't read them all) have asked for specific ways puzzles and the emerging story might bring the puzzle solving in game. I enjoy ED because I like to make believe, so with that in mind i am going to play a game...

How might some of the existing game mechanics be turned into engaging tools and game mechanics for uncovering mysteries and solving puzzles (this was already done once much earlier).

Building on Exploration and Discovery
What if ships could fit a wave scanner like module? What might we use it for?
I enter a system an unexplored system, and as currently I use my discovery scanner to reveal all the system bodies. I can apply more detail by using my detailed surface scanner. AND while in super cruise rather than have all variations of USS viewable in the contacts screen, I can activate my detailed system scanner, which operates on the same mechanic as the wave scanner. Using this module I receive [insert hand wavium term] signals that indicate local system anomalies (crashed vessels, data points, listening posts, UA's) this may even guide me to a specific location on a a specific planet. From the discovery of said anomaly a mutli-part mission steeped in intrigue unfolds.

Building on unidentified probe "disabling" mechanic
In any given point of interest on a planet might trigger a defence mechanism that disables my primary vessel. As a result I am left to explore the planet to retrieve specific components to repair my vessel. This might also require me to collect data or codes from one location on the planet, decipher them in order to deactivate the defences in a second location. Of course such a planet based mission might need to reward the player with some booty as well, maybe a stash of ice diamonds or some other rare mineral?

Extending Mining Mechanic
Out in the black while doing my normal explorer honk, scan and anomaly detection I am directed to the ring system of a previously unexplored planet. I drop in to discover a specific asteroid is the source of the anomaly. I deploy my mining prospector to discover a unexpected power source with the asteroid. I then deploy my mining laser and release an artefact that broadcasts a location on the nearby planet...

Extending Engineers
While exploring in or around the bubble my anomaly scanner detects a signal (space or planet side). Upon arrival i discover a ship holding a small data cache explaining the pilot was due to be collecting a specific material or commodity and then rendezvous with a particular engineer in order to have a specific modification applied. The data cache is unfortunately corrupted and only a system name or Galmap coordinate is identifiable. I then need to find the required material/camodity within the system specified, find the engineer so that I can be rewarded with a mission specific modification.

Extending Smuggling
For what ever reason i find myself in possession of some "compromising" cargo. Upon arrival at a station I am unable to sell these goods but notice a new message in my coms panel from a shady NPC. It turns out the goods in question are actually wanted by a specific NPC that was last seen in a specific system. I dutifully how foot over to the system and drop out at the specified USS only to discover the remains of a vessel and a data point broadcasting a cypher. After de-cyphering the message I am sent on a journey that uncovers a story of corporate espionage and state sponsored murder that forever puts a black mark against that makes entering specific systems or working for the feds a particularly risky proposition.

Any of these scenarios might be instigated via tip offs, or mission updates, or existing mission start points. There does seem to be a more information on how to decode the current cyphers along with the puzzle with keys being provided. In Addition it might be nice if players could set the ships computer to work on decoding the cyphers under a timer for those that would rather not resort to external tools/pen and pencil.

The other nice thing is that scenarios like this might have limited impact on the galaxy at large, or maybe they do act as larger plot triggers. Regardless, they will impact any player as an individual, there is a very direct cause and effect for anyone that gets tangled up in them.

I like to think these things will come in time.

 

[Archvillain]

You are the minority and you do not care about immersion, your statement makes this clear. If you are talking about realistic science regarding the game and its mechanics, your statement does not make sense because in reality what exploration space ship would have no active scientific instrumentation to examine and analyze anomalies?.[yesnod]

You are quite mistaken; I care hugely about immersion. It's much more immersive for these puzzles to require solving in a real-world way rather than gamey push-a-button-beepity-beep CSI-style whatever.

In reality science and discovery is done by people. Archaeology / treasure-hunting boats in the real world carry as much scientific instrumentation as they possibly can (or can afford), yet a lot of the work is still done on-shore, and whether on-shore or on the boat, a lot of the work is done with pens and pencils, books, computers, studying, etc. The work done "out in the field" in the boat and by instruments is only one part of the equation, and it's great that Elite sometimes offers a broader game experience to those that want it, in addition to offering a ton of entirely-in-game experiences to those who the experience to stay on the ship.

Elite offers both, thus catering to more people. There is no reason to offer less.


For perspective, I use a HOTAS and pedals (and more) so my ship has a real physical presence; my desk/battlestation is the bridge/cockpit of my ship. Anything I can do from my "battlestation" is something I am doing in my ship's cockpit and therefore is inside the game (for me). That includes pen and paper, books, computers, refreshments, etc. Are you familiar with a pilot's kneeboard? Pilots use them as mini work-desks on their lap while they fly their planes. For me personally, it is more immersive to have something like a kneeboard real and on my real leg, with the interface being a real pen, rather than a kneeboard simulated on the screen that I can only bizarrely interact with via... a joystick?! A mouse? This is why puzzles using real tools and real knowledge in (vaguely) real ways are more immersive for me. (It's also because puzzles using real tools are slightly more likely to reward real study and knowledge which is more satisfying to me than yet more rewarding of my already-over-indulged gamey skills )

Do you play exclusively in VR? I can understand that would make some cockpit activities more unwieldy. I plan to move to VR, but I think I have some solutions that will work for me to get the best of both worlds.

 

[Drelthar]

Elite offers both, thus catering to more people. There is no reason to offer less.

Haven't seen many people asking for the removal of anything.

Just the addition of some actual in game mechanics for finding and doing things.