An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

[DefiledDragon]

Where's the evidence that 'everybody' does it though in this case? Let's ask ourselves this - in any given play session, say, 1 hour, how many players are in game at once? How many of those are in open? Of those, how many actively engage in combat with other players (wanted or unwanted combat)? Of those (and I'd argue we're already at a small minority of players by this point) who engage in such PvP combat, how many actively, deliberately combat log via killing the task? Do the math, even only speculatively, and it doesn't take much to work out that such combat logging would only be carried out by a small minority of players, and only impacts a small minority of players.
.
That's not to diminish the significance of the impact on the affected players or the impact of any inaction by Frontier, and even Frontier has acknowledged that it is cheating, but I doubt it's the significant problem, looking at the game as a whole, that posts like this make out. Yes, it's cheating, and yes warrants action by Frontier (if there is a demonstrable pattern of behaviour), but let's not blow the combat logging question out of proportion either.

You may want to read the post I was responding to, so you don't take my reply out of context. That context being that somebody said something along the lines of "loads of other companies lie to their customers, why should FD be any different, suck it up buttercup etc..."

 

[Kubicide]

People logging or quitting MP games is nothing new and it happens in practically every single multiplayer game today. Fact is there is no win-win solution except for the dev's to make the game enjoyable enough so people don't see the need to do this.

To use the band-aid analogy: player's log for a reason so focus on the illness, not the symptom. Focusing on trying to punish or stop logging/quitting doesn't make sense. The game balance needs fixing, badly, that's why folks log. Risk vs. reward, crime vs. punishments, etc. - they're all way out of balance...

 

[shadragon]

A lack of observed action and "lying" are two separate things and may I suggest you peruse the definition of the word slander before using it again. Collecting info on an exploit (with no automatic way of doing anything about it yet) is a long term process. Deal with it.

You're upset because they're not acting on the one issue YOU want to be the highest priority while they work on the thousand other priorities from other players. Again, deal with it. Stamping your feet because you don't get your way is petulant and childish. Stop wasting their time with false reports and be patient. If you can't be patient, go do something else.

Of all the problematic game devs out there, you choose to blast one of the better ones. You can look up myopic as well.

Would love to hear what your solution is to combat this as you left it out of the OP.

This is strike 2. The second materially, knowingly false statement that FD has made on record. The first was offline play.

Wow. They cancelled offline mode in Nov 2014. This means you went two years between 'strikes.' (SARCASM) How ever can you deal with such frequent disappointments? (/SARCASM) They offered refunds for those offended and I assume you didn't take it as you are still here. So again, deal with it.

The devs and the game are not perfect and they've stumbled a few times, but they are still pretty damned good in my books. You don't know how good you've got it.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

I'm just going to be a realist here, and maybe very naive, but...

Perhaps it's time for FD to make an official apology, and admit they can't do anything in the foreseeable future.

I really don't see how FD can do anything.

I'll just continue playing in Solo/PG to avoid PvP (Which is the last thing this game is about IMO), altogether.

 

[DefiledDragon]

A lack of observed action and "lying" are two separate things

What? On what planet? If Frontier Developments process for investigating accusations of combat logging involves the examination of evidence (video) and they respond to a number of accusations stating that they've examined the evidence and that there's nothing to see here, when they have in fact not examined the evidence at all, how is that not FD lying?

 

[Kraven42]

Im not I would really expect support to act on a small number of reports for an issue that a lot of people don't care about.

Real investigation may only really happen after a lot of reports by a lot of users, a single report against a Cmdr that has never had any other reports is simply not worth looking at. esp if your support queue has more important tickets to look at.

 

[Scoopy Doopy]

Your conclusion is that FD are telling you one thing and doing another. This may be the case and you have certainly provided circumstantial evidence to support your claim. I am not qualified to judge.

However, I would like to ask why you would bother to go to these impressive lengths to test this in a game described by FD as having "limited but meaningful PvP" when you infer that PvP is a significant feature preventing the game being "a sterile grind". To me this suggests that to you, the game is a sterile grind because PvP is, as stated by the developer, "limited". So why do you care about it?

Aside from the main point of your post which may be valid, I suspect many people would completely disagree that your reasons for doing your test are even remotely valid.

 

[edgar]

Interesting reading OP.

Seems pretty damning from the face of it that the evidence videos were not even looked at, however I am looking forward to hearing FD's side of things too.

 

[missmartian]

The investigation was concise however and please do not take this as criticism OP but I know what the fanboys are like and how big companies respond. The former will never believe you even if they were sat right next for several days watching your ever move, to them you will be considered a liar no matter what you do. In regards to the latter - We thank you for bringing this our attention and rest assured it will be dealt with. <- I work in a big company dealing with escalations and complaints so trust me on this, Frontier won't take this seriously unless they more evidence is handed to them, putting it on social media might get a little attention but the result with be the same.

I really hope something changes, as all types of cheating is just plain wrong. But as you saw from a recent poll in this very forum half of the community do not care about combat logging

 

[GimpstersGhost]

Players will combat log as much even if we remove re buy cost (make it free) and any other form of penalty when they are losing or can't win. No one combat log to save their assets. They combat log because they can't face the fact that they lost or made mistake and simple key press make them never lose.

If this was the case then combat logging would be a prevalent issue in CQC and other forms of PvP focused gameplay. Every time I see a thread concerning this issue the combat logger is either a player forced in to unwanted PvP or a person who forced another into unwanted PvP only to be outclassed. A small subset may be from consensual PvP. i am not saying the mechanism which allow this to happen does not need to be fixed, I am just saying the only fixing the mechanism without also addressing many of the reasons some people feel the need to use it will cause as much harm to the community as not addressing it as all.

 

[JosiahD]

You may want to read the post I was responding to, so you don't take my reply out of context. That context being that somebody said something along the lines of "loads of other companies lie to their customers, why should FD be any different, suck it up buttercup etc..."

No I got the context you were responding to - I was just using your 'everybody' point to prompt the questions that we should be asking in relation to just how significant or insignificant the question of combat logging really is. Apologies if I mis-used it though.

 

[Jukelo]

If you want to reduce peoples use of this tactic then you need to address the reasons they are choosing this action, not try to prevent the action. All preventing the action will do is drive many of these people into solo and group play. The primary reason this activity is occurring is that the penalties for PvP loses in the currently available PvP gameplay within Open are too high when compared to the fun factor the risk of encountering a negative player to player interaction provides. Most MMO games have a very low penalty for PvP losses, you are back in the action in just a few minutes and any financial hits are easily recovered in short order through normal gameplay.

Just look around these forums and the Mobius PVE forums. People openly admit to combat logging even against NPCs to avoid the consequences of their own mistakes. People even use the exit menu to be able to leave stations without getting scanned by the police outside. The deeper issue isn't related to the penalties associated with PvP, the issue of combat logging in the context of PvP is just more visible by definition and more often brought up. But people will cheat in solo or private groups just the same if they think they can get away with it.

 

[Cosmos]

Just look around these forums and the Mobius PVE forums. People openly admit to combat logging even against NPCs to avoid the consequences of their own mistakes. The deeper issue isn't related to the penalties associated with PvP, the issue of combat logging in the context of PvP is just more visible by definition and more often brought up. But people will cheat in solo or private groups just the same if they think they can get away with it.

Yeah its truly depressing. Its hard to enjoy a game when its become a ratship of cheats and exploiters.. Bravo Frontier, bravo! I even spoke to Zac about this a while back.

Well they aint getting another penny from me until this is sorted.

 

[Javert]

I have a couple of questions on this:

1) Firstly, can they be absolutely 100% sure that FD didn't view the video? Do all views get logged even if the viewer was using some kind of anonymity techniques?

2) Were the tests conducted and reported multiple times against the same account? To me, it's pretty obvious that FD are not going to take any action against any player for a single (or even several) reports of combat logging.

Fundamentally, video evidence or not, it's impossible to conclusively prove that someone combat logged in a single case, since they can just say their internet went down, and no telemetry or video evidence can prove otherwise unless FD have a camera in their house.

Seems to me, the only way FD can handle this (if at all) is to track all reports of combat logging, and then look at it further when the same commander is reported multiple or many times. They probably have a limit on which they only look into it if the same player is reported more than x times, and x is probably quite a high number like 10 or more.

So it may also be that your tests didn't trigger the number of required reports against a single account to warrant further action. Until it hits that trigger, there is no point reviewing video evidence. Granted, if the person admitted to combat logging in the chat, and that was shown in the video, that is bigger evidence, but I highly doubt that they would operate a single strike policy anyway - even if the person admitted it they probably wouldn't ban them until they did multiple offences.

Also, you don't say whether perhaps the person doing this in the first case didn't even realize it was against the game rules.

Edit: Personally, I don't like Combat Logging and I personally wouldn't have an issue with a system where if you combat log when you are in combat, you lose your ship. You would then be allowed a number of "get out of jail" cards per year where you can get your ship reinstated - this should cover you for when the disconnect was truly not your fault. Personally I would be ok with that, but then I have a good connection. If you have a really dodgy connection, probably you won't like that solution.

 

[Lobstris]

So, the biggest flaw in E: D is combat logging? I'd have gone with leaving exploits like Sothis/Ceos in for so long, but hey ho...

I'd imagine Frontier don't really have the resources to deal with the issue, neither from a technical standpoint, nor from the potential backlash from 'false positives'.

 

[JosiahD]

Would an open PvE-only mode solve the problem?
(Ducks and exits stage left.....)

 

[znôrt]

I have a couple of questions on this:

1) Firstly, can they be absolutely 100% sure that FD didn't view the video? Do all views get logged even if the viewer was using some kind of anonymity techniques?

2) Were the tests conducted and reported multiple times against the same account? To me, it's pretty obvious that FD are not going to take any action against any player for a single (or even several) reports of combat logging.

Fundamentally, video evidence or not, it's impossible to conclusively prove that someone combat logged in a single case, since they can just say their internet went down, and no telemetry or video evidence can prove otherwise unless FD have a camera in their house.

Seems to me, the only way FD can handle this (if at all) is to track all reports of combat logging, and then look at it further when the same commander is reported multiple or many times. They probably have a limit on which they only look into it if the same player is reported more than x times, and x is probably quite a high number like 10 or more.

So it may also be that your tests didn't trigger the number of required reports against a single account to warrant further action. Until it hits that trigger, there is no point reviewing video evidence. Granted, if the person admitted to combat logging in the chat, and that was shown in the video, that is bigger evidence, but I highly doubt that they would operate a single strike policy anyway - even if the person admitted it they probably wouldn't ban them until they did multiple offences.

Also, you don't say whether perhaps the person doing this in the first case didn't even realize it was against the game rules.

i wonder if you missed the parts "with chat evidence" and "no measure whatsoever to this day".

 

[edgar]

Just look around these forums and the Mobius PVE forums. People openly admit to combat logging even against NPCs to avoid the consequences of their own mistakes. People even use the exit menu to be able to leave stations without getting scanned by the police outside. The deeper issue isn't related to the penalties associated with PvP, the issue of combat logging in the context of PvP is just more visible by definition and more often brought up. But people will cheat in solo or private groups just the same if they think they can get away with it.

That's.. incredible..

Why do these sorts even bother playing the game at all? It must be as dull as playing an FPS on godmode.

 

[bitstorm]

But why not, I mean logoff/logon is the answer to everything in ED!

Although it seems sometimes this is ok, but other times it is not.

PvPers filling their boots by logging off and on again to earn ridiculous credits, meanwhile there are bitter complaints when other people logoff/logon to avoid losing them.

 

[JW667]

Sometimes it is necessary for players to take it upon themselves to try and improve a game that is under threat; we were forced to do this with the heat meta, and will do it again as necessary. In this instance, it will be by publicising our findings to relevant media sites until Frontier decides to take action.[/FONT]

So in short, you are SDC?

The Op is great though, you make valid points. However I'm laughing my ..... of right now.